Substitution Rule

[HRE Otto IV]

It’s not disallowed. You can go as fast as the refs let you. If Army is saying “we get to sub” then they hold the play up. The bigger question is in fact if they allowed Army to take more than a reasonable amount of time or held the play up when we didn’t sub at all.

The refs will stop play even if the other team does not sub. They are required to give an opportunity. It is pointless to sub and go fast. You cannot do both by rule. When the whole point of going fast is to keep the D as is and build up momentum, why sub out and stop both from happening?

 

[JustPherU]

The refs will stop play even if the other team does not sub. They are required to give an opportunity. It is pointless to sub and go fast. You cannot do both by rule. When the whole point of going fast is to keep the D as is and build up momentum, why sub out and stop both from happening?

So let’s say a team is trying to hurry up and spike the ball to stop the clock with just a couple seconds left, why don’t defenses just sub someone in so the offense cannot get the snap off and spike the ball?
I’m as lost as last years Easter egg on the substitution rule.

 

[TheCusian]

The refs will stop play even if the other team does not sub. They are required to give an opportunity. It is pointless to sub and go fast. You cannot do both by rule. When the whole point of going fast is to keep the D as is and build up momentum, why sub out and stop both from happening?

You go as fast as they allow - why sub and go slow? The defense is still adjusting to your new players and the refs can hold the play up to varying degree based on def sub. Obviously, not subbing and going fast has historically been an offensive advantage. Subbing and going fast is less of an advantage, but I fail to see how it hurts you.

 

[upperdeck]

it should be an automatic time though. from the time we sub they have X to get someone on and off.

 

[SWC75]

The image of the referee having a staring contest with the QB while the other team gets to get an extra man off the field is, at best, a bad look.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

So let’s say a team is trying to hurry up and spike the ball to stop the clock with just a couple seconds left, why don’t defenses just sub someone in so the offense cannot get the snap off and spike the ball?
I’m as lost as last years Easter egg on the substitution rule.

It only applies if you bring an O player off the field.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You go as fast as they allow - why sub and go slow? The defense is still adjusting to your new players and the refs can hold the play up to varying degree based on def sub. Obviously, not subbing and going fast has historically been an offensive advantage. Subbing and going fast is less of an advantage, but I fail to see how it hurts you.

You cannot sub and go fast! If you have to wait 5-6 secs then it isn't going fast is it? The D can get players and a different play call in. That negates the whole advantage of going fast.

 

[FreakTalksAboutSU]

Just saw the Ravens send in a sub so slowly that the Colts had like 2 seconds to get the play off. Then they refused to reset the play clock and got s 5 yard penalty.

That rule needs to change on both levels.

 

[Cusefan95]

Just saw the Ravens send in a sub so slowly that the Colts had like 2 seconds to get the play off. Then they refused to reset the play clock and got s 5 yard penalty.

That rule needs to change on both levels.

Same thing happened in the Oklahoma State-TCU game last year. OSU sent in subs so late TCU had to call a timeout in the first half, TCU coaches went ballistic on the officials. After that the officials started giving OSU ten seconds to get a sub on, even if they were mid-sub the officials would step away from the ball. That situation turned the entire game into a confusing cluster - that neither the NFL or NCAA realized what a sheetshow the vague rule is and didn’t address this past offseason is negligence by the parties involved.

 

[kuethstheman]

I remember Jameis Winston shoving the ref out of the way and running the play. Ref was too stunned to call anything. Plus, it was Florida. State

 

[TheCusian]

You cannot sub and go fast! If you have to wait 5-6 secs then it isn't going fast is it? The D can get players and a different play call in. That negates the whole advantage of going fast.

Hmm. Do you think there’s “fast” and “slow” and nothing in between? You can sub and still attempt to go fast. It’s the ref and defense that dictate the 5-6 seconds. There are times where the ref hustles to the line and doesn’t allow quite the runoff they allowed Army.

Your initial comment was implying some sort of coaching malpractice. I think that’s dumb. Try to go fast, obviously not subbing is way more advantageous, but going fast and subbing puts the onus on the ref/defense to make a move. It’s not the same advantage - but it’s not without value.

 

[Orangeman]

My post was based on this:

Football Rules Committee slightly adjusts targeting rule, defensive substitutions

The NCAA Football Rules Committee proposed an alteration involving the instant-replay review on targeting fouls as well as a rules change allowing defensive units

www.ncaa.org

But now that I’m looking at it again, this is described as a proposal.
This should be easier to answer.

Apologies for the potential fake news.

take a lap

Just kidding, little post-win weekend humor

 

[orangeinohio]

take a lap

Just kidding, little post-win weekend humor

 

[SmilinBob]

Watching the game live I often didn't see SU sub because the same receivers were still in the game and there isn't another player that usually subs if they don't and the ref would not budge.

 

[kmart128]

The wording of the rule is

When Team A sends in its substitutes, the officials will not allow the ball to be snapped until Team B has been given an opportunity to substitute. While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes.

Those of us watching TV had no idea if Team A (Syracuse) had sent in subs because of camera angle and completely uninformative broadcasters.

Well if this is the wording... it seemed like Army was violating the last line by reacting promptly... seems like they were taking their own sweet time with each substitution and it wasnt prompt. They had their opportunity to sub and they were late... refs should have allowed the snap and called to many men on the field om Army multiple times. They really should make it a rule that defense gets 10 seconds to sub if a sub has been made on offense. And they must make determination to sub with more than 20 seconds on play clock

 

[David321]

It’s almost as if ACC refs work against us, every single game. But enough of that crazy talk. It just seems like that. Every single game.

 

[All4SU]

The wording of the rule is

When Team A sends in its substitutes, the officials will not allow the ball to be snapped until Team B has been given an opportunity to substitute. While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes.

Those of us watching TV had no idea if Team A (Syracuse) had sent in subs because of camera angle and completely uninformative broadcasters.

Team B did not always respond “promptly” and yet was still given multiple opportunities

 

[upperdeck]

Team B did not always respond “promptly” and yet was still given multiple opportunities

yup it would take some good review of the game to see if we subbed out.

given the snap counts though we played mostly the same WRs all game and the same RBs. maybe we swapped a TE at times?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Dino Babers: Syracuse players have ‘exactly the right attitude’ ahead of ACC opener vs. Clemson

Babers referenced the history of close, physical games between the two programs in the past 10 years.

www.syracuse.com

-- On Saturday’s officiating and an outside perception that the referees were allowing more time for Army substitutions, Babers said this: “There is nothing finer than our military. Nothing operates at a higher level than our military, and you really don’t want our military after you. And I will say that those substitutions were done in a military fashion.”

 

[shandeezy7]

Dino Babers: Syracuse players have ‘exactly the right attitude’ ahead of ACC opener vs. Clemson

Babers referenced the history of close, physical games between the two programs in the past 10 years.

www.syracuse.com

-- On Saturday’s officiating and an outside perception that the referees were allowing more time for Army substitutions, Babers said this: “There is nothing finer than our military. Nothing operates at a higher level than our military, and you really don’t want our military after you. And I will say that those substitutions were done in a military fashion.”

 

[GoSU96]

It’s almost as if ACC refs work against us, every single game. But enough of that crazy talk. It just seems like that. Every single game.

It’s funny, a guy in an orange cabana shirt speaking from a podium hinted at the same thing today.

 

[upperdeck]

Went back and watched the drive in the 3rd when it was 10-10.. we did not sub we ran alford/brown/hatcher with vallari and allen and thats it..

The refs slowed us down while army was subbing..

Have to believe coach had some talk about that to someone even if we didnt say much about it in the PC.

 

[baggerbob]

Dino Babers: Syracuse players have ‘exactly the right attitude’ ahead of ACC opener vs. Clemson

Babers referenced the history of close, physical games between the two programs in the past 10 years.

www.syracuse.com

-- On Saturday’s officiating and an outside perception that the referees were allowing more time for Army substitutions, Babers said this: “There is nothing finer than our military. Nothing operates at a higher level than our military, and you really don’t want our military after you. And I will say that those substitutions were done in a military fashion.”

That's why the saying is Hurry up and Wait. At least it was from 1964-1968 when I served.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I expect better from Army than to cheat.

 

[Cusefan95]

I expect better from Army than to cheat.

My wrestling coach used to say “it’s not cheating if the refs aren’t calling it”.

While it’s a very malleable ethical system - it does seem to match real world reality quite well.