Syracuse fans inferiority complex

[Quazzum69]

Take the results of the NCAAT since 1985 (assuming 300 DI schools):

*There have only been 42 teams to fill 112 final four spots (less than 15% of all DI teams).
*Only 25 teams have made multiple Final Fours (about 8% of teams)
*Only 14 schools have multiple championship game appearances. That's less than 5% of teams in 79% of championship slots (44/56)
*Only 8 schools have 3+ appearances. That’s about 2.5% of schools in 57% of finals slots (32/56).

*17 teams have won 28 championships since 1985 (about 5.5% of schools), all from major conferences except UNLV in 1990
*6 schools (Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, UConn, Florida) have multiple championships that total 17 of those 28 (less than 2% of schools taking more than 60% of the championships).

Obviously, Syracuse is part of the “haves” in the past three decades, even without extensive runs and multiple championships:
*Only 6 schools have more championships than SU (98th percentile)
*Only 3 schools have more championship game appearances than SU (99th percentile)
*Only 9 schools have more final fours than SU (97th percentile)

Anyone who thinks SU (i.e. Jim Boeheim) is not "elite, great" or one of the best coaches around is an idiot. Doug Gottlieb is an idiot. It would be nice to have the insane results of Coach K (11 Final Fours, 8 title appearances in 28 seasons!) but it is ridiculous to say SU is not top-tier even without considering the many Big East accomplishments. There's probably only been about 7-9 schools who have better tournament success (FFs or better) in the modern era so we, the fans, just need to relax and stop comparing everything. Enjoy the games, not the numbers.

 

[Cusejuicy]

Great post. Truely telling numbers. Real fans know two things without a doubt.
1. SU is an elite program, maybe not always as elite as we would like, but none the less elite.
2. Gottlieb is not just an idiot, he is a flaming idiot

 

[AlaskaSU]

One more NC would shut everyone up.

 

[rrlbees]

Thank you. And he's been doing it longer than anyone.

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[sufandu]

I've always said we're in the second tier of great programs, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. JB's been the man that has brought us there, so he must be a great coach.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Great stuff


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[Marsh01]

One more NC would shut everyone up.

The sad thing is no it woulndt.

 

[Orangezoo]

awesome post and a great way to be thinking about cuse hoops as santa heads our way tonight or others celebrate the holiday season according to their religion.

 

[RF2044]

The sad thing is no it woulndt.

I agree with AlaskaSU. Not that there wouldn't still be detractors, but one more NC would cement JB's position amongst the elite by taking away a rather significant talking point of his critics.

One more championship would really add to his already absurd resume of accomplishments.

Damn you, Keith Smart...

 

[Marsh01]

I agree with AlaskaSU. Not that there wouldn't still be detractors, but one more NC would cement JB's position amongst the elite by taking away a rather significant talking point of his critics.

One more championship would really add to his already absurd resume of accomplishments.

Damn you, Keith Smart...

mediawise I agree but people who shall rename nameless on this board would still bitch and moan and say he should have won 3 or 4, etc.

 

[rrlbees]

mediawise I agree but people who shall rename nameless on this board would still bitch and moan and say he should have won 3 or 4, etc.

While it is all coulda, woulda, shouda's, if not for Keith Smart, AO's injury and Fab Melo's brain, JB just might have 3-4.

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[stuckinbig11]

What percentage of Duke's NCAA tournament games were played in North Carolina?

 

[rrlbees]

What percentage of Duke's NCAA tournament games were played in North Carolina?

88.4%

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[44cuse]

Been saying it for years. Just gave up in the last few. The inferiority complex of this fan base is literally incredible. Great post.

And we have GREAT program.

For those of you who don't get it...suck it up and get your behinds to a 27K+ game in The Dome. Then you'll get it.

We have it pretty damn good.

44cuse

 

[SBU72]

I agree with AlaskaSU. Not that there wouldn't still be detractors, but one more NC would cement JB's position amongst the elite by taking away a rather significant talking point of his critics.

One more championship would really add to his already absurd resume of accomplishments.

Damn you, Keith Smart...

Before 2003, everybody said that JB needed a NC to cememt his position. Now it's 2? What then, he needs three like Coach K?

 

[RF2044]

Before 2003, everybody said that JB needed a NC to cememt his position. Now it's 2? What then, he needs three like Coach K?

You aren't interpreting my post in the correct context.

We're talking about JB being in the pantheon of all-time great coaches. Yes, he absolutely needed to win one to belong in the conversation. Do you dispute that? How many coaches who've never won a championship are discussed as being in the top group of greatest coaches of all time? And given his extended longevity, he probably needs more than one to put these types of debates to rest. Very few coaches get 2 national championships. Very few. If he gets another, he's in that group, hands down, end of debate.

Even if he doesn't, he probably is--but subject to debate based upon whatever BS subjective criteria people like Gottlieb use to downplay his ridiculous win total.

 

[JohnCuse44]

3 national championships would shut everyone but the most obtuse talking heads up. Really 2 should be enough but still some idiots would claim the whole cant win the bi one theory. Truth is most coaches even a big name schools struggle to even make a final four in there career.

 

[orange2win]

[quote="Anyone who thinks SU (i.e. Jim Boeheim) is not "elite, great" or one of the best coaches around is an idiot. Doug Gottlieb is an idiot.[/quote]

Excellent job Quazzum69. Your post was a lot of work. I know from experience, as one who has entered this fray before. I have the data already generated on my computer and so was able to quickly spot check your numbers. They are good.

I agree with your findings, except as quoted above. It might fly well on this site, but not nationwide. The counter arguments are valid too. The Gottliebs, Blue Curtains, Igors, etc. are not stupid people. Here a are a few sample counter arguments:

Point: Quazzum69's numbers of JB's record in the NCAA tournament show that without a shadow of doubt, he is not just great but elite.
Counterpoint: The analysis is flawed. It does not account for seeding and the fact that JB has the most rediculous losses in NCAA history.

Point: And further, JB has proven his greatness by achieving his incredible record without the benefit of a stream of 5 star recruits.
Counterpoint: Wrong. JB has recruited more NBA pros and McDAA into his program that any other team in the BE.

Point: The reason JB has always been able to attract good recruits is because the kids, and their HS coaches, all know he is the best coach.
Counterpoint: Wrong. Dome star power, Melo Center, best national TV exposure, big recruiting budget, # of ACs, etc. That's how he does it.

Point: You simply cannot dispute the man's winning percentage, the numbers speak for themseves. How many can beat 75%?
Counterpoint: Fabricated. He never plays anybody until he has to.

And so on and on it goes. There is no way to win the debate. Your opponents have strong points as well.

I had planned a post to end this debate (so I kid myself), but never have had the time to finish it. It would make the case that tecnical coaching strategy is only about 20% of it. Other factors like business development, recruiting, media management, image building, instilling confidence and loyalty, being a stabalizing factor, consistency, etc., are just as important. I planned a matrix of about 5 categories. I would score JB modest to low in technical coaching skill (to address the valid - perhaps - arguments of his critics) and what he deserves in the other categories. I would do the same with all the others. I expect JB to come out on the very top.

To express this point another way and at the risk of offending our Syracuse natives. He's located in upstate hicksville, almost in Canada, in a place that gets the least sunshine and most snowfall in America and he has managed to pull in the largest audiences in America for his product for over 30 years. That has been great for SU, great for Syracuse and great for college basketball. Who cares if his inflexible use of a dopey zone is not the best technical strategy. It's good for business.

 

[orange79]

Counterpoint: The analysis is flawed. It does not account for seeding and the fact that JB has the most rediculous losses in NCAA history.

Not sure I buy that 'fact'. First 2 seed to lose in the 1st round, but not the only. Far from the first 4 seed to lose to a 13. What makes it 'fact' that JB has the most 'rediculous' [sic] losses in NCAA history. A bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

 

[PoppyHart]

Another title would almost certainly elevate him above guys like Pitino, Izzo, Self, Cal, and Olson. He'd also be the best of the two timers like Roy and Donovan, pushing him right to the edge of top-5 with Smith and Calhoun.

This assumes that the active coaches also start treading water. But since the title in 03, JB has actually lost ground. In April of '03 he was ahead of everyone active at the time except K, Knight, and possibly Calhoun. Every coach in the paragraph above, except Olson and Smith, obviously, went to multiple final fours in the last decade, and 3 of them won twice.

This is a competitive bunch, and JB really needs another notch on his belt to stave off the competition. An Elway type swan song would be ideal.

 

[cusetown1]

Another title would almost certainly elevate him above guys like Pitino, Izzo, Self, Cal, and Olson. He'd also be the best of the two timers like Roy and Donovan, pushing him right to the edge of top-5 with Smith and Calhoun.

This assumes that the active coaches also start treading water. But since the title in 03, JB has actually lost ground. In April of '03 he was ahead of everyone active at the time except K, Knight, and possibly Calhoun. Every coach in the paragraph above, except Olson and Smith, obviously, went to multiple final fours in the last decade, and 3 of them won twice.

This is a competitive bunch, and JB really needs another notch on his belt to stave off the competition. An Elway type swan song would be ideal.

That would be awesome. Win another (or 2) and give his critics the Bobby Knight treatment.

 

[orange2win]

Not sure I buy that 'fact'. First 2 seed to lose in the 1st round, but not the only. Far from the first 4 seed to lose to a 13. What makes it 'fact' that JB has the most 'rediculous' [sic] losses in NCAA history. A bit hyperbolic, don't you think?

Well, hyperbolic for sure, but arguments usually involve hyperbola. The facts make a strong case however:

1988 seeded #3 lost to Rhode Island seeded #11 in 2nd round
1991 seeded #2 lost to Richmond seeded #15 in 1st round*
2005 seeded #4 lost to Vermont seeded # 13 in 1st round
2006 seeded #5 lost to Texas A&M seeded #12 in 1st round
2011 seeded #3 lost to Marquette seeded #11 in 2nd round

*I believe this is an NCAA record. The only #2 to ever lose to a #15 seed. (Note: in 29 appearances, we have only been a #1 seed three times)

A little more severe that you quote.

 

[sufandu]

1991 seeded #2 lost to Richmond seeded #15 in 1st round*

*I believe this is an NCAA record. The only #2 to ever lose to a #15 seed. (Note: in 29 appearances, we have only been a #1 seed three times)

It's a record in that it was the first time. It has happened since then, so it is no longer the only. An argument could be made, however, that the difference between high seeds and low seeds was much greater back then.

 

[shandeezy7]

It's a record in that it was the first time. It has happened since then, so it is no longer the only. An argument could be made, however, that the difference between high seeds and low seeds was much greater back then.

Not only has it happened since then, but wasn't Duke and Coach K (who is the greatest coach of this era) one of those 2 seeds to lose to a 15??

EDIT: Yep, it was this past March to Lehigh

 

[Orangezoo]

Considering other elite programs have had major miss steps ( Duke, Kansas, UNC, UK all come to mind) Do losses to low seeds provide for an argument against being elite? Or do the wins outweigh the losses?