Syracuse fans inferiority complex

[SBU72]

You aren't interpreting my post in the correct context.

We're talking about JB being in the pantheon of all-time great coaches. Yes, he absolutely needed to win one to belong in the conversation. Do you dispute that? How many coaches who've never won a championship are discussed as being in the top group of greatest coaches of all time? And given his extended longevity, he probably needs more than one to put these types of debates to rest. Very few coaches get 2 national championships. Very few. If he gets another, he's in that group, hands down, end of debate.

Even if he doesn't, he probably is--but subject to debate based upon whatever BS subjective criteria people like Gottlieb use to downplay his ridiculous win total.

Sorry, I did not mean to offend. As the title of the thread says, SU fans often tend to have an inferiority comlex. When SU loses a game, ie to Temple, my biggest concern is how to repond to the seemingly never ending bashers who use every mistep as evidence that SU is a pretender and not amoung the upper echolon of b-ball school. It just seems that even fans are never satisfiied with the teams results. Get to the Sweet 16, the team is a failure for not making the Super 8. Get to the Super 8, they should have made the Final 4. Get to the final game, they should have won the NC. So it follows that even a 2nd championship would still not be enough show that JB is amoung the top coaches. Like any fan, I do question or fine fault with JB's coaching but I will never argue with his success and even when I question will acknowledge he is amoung the best ever. Top 5? Top 10? who know but any converstaion HAS to include JB.

 

[pfister1]

Before 2003, everybody said that JB needed a NC to cememt his position. Now it's 2? What then, he needs three like Coach K?

The standard is not static, since 2003 Calhoun, Williams, K, Calipari and Self have all added championships to their resumes thus changing the standard.....to the extent that you use NCs won as a standard.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Well, hyperbolic for sure, but arguments usually involve hyperbola. The facts make a strong case however:

1988 seeded #3 lost to Rhode Island seeded #11 in 2nd round
1991 seeded #2 lost to Richmond seeded #15 in 1st round*
2005 seeded #4 lost to Vermont seeded # 13 in 1st round
2006 seeded #5 lost to Texas A&M seeded #12 in 1st round
2011 seeded #3 lost to Marquette seeded #11 in 2nd round

*I believe this is an NCAA record. The only #2 to ever lose to a #15 seed. (Note: in 29 appearances, we have only been a #1 seed three times)

A little more severe that you quote.

I don't see how most of these are "rediculous"

I'll give you 88 and 91, although we just had a 15 beat a 2 this year. Ours was hardly the only one, just the first.

13s beat 4s and 12s beat 5s all the time. There are at least a few of these upsets every year. 2011 was an upset in seeding only. Marquette had already beaten us that year and was a terrible match-up for us.

 

[orangefan13]

JB is like Syracuse basketball he would have to win 3 titles even be considered a fan favorite. The media has been out for syracuse since the beginning of espn, and I don't ever see that changing.

Sadly I think three titles for JB is very unlikely. I personally don't have the faith. BUT, if we got the second and pushed towards a third once or twice in march or even won a third I would be in Joyfull silliness. My expectations are that high. I think alot of syracuse fans expectations have become that in the last 7 years. Who knows maybe such high expectations could help our fate.

Fate has been pretty cruel to us at times. We haven't been able to rebuild the killer offense of 03 but have arguably had as much talent which is kind of unlucky. But, its not like the 03 rolled through the tournament beastly they had a few close calls as well. On the other hand the 03 team had momentum every game except the first half of Oklahoma state. Yes Kansas cut the lead, but we responded to retake it immedietly. Coincidentally thats why we lost to temple-momentum.

 

[orange2win]

13s beat 4s and 12s beat 5s all the time. There are at least a few of these upsets every year. 2011 was an upset in seeding only. Marquette had already beaten us that year and was a terrible match-up for us.

Okay, let me ask you this. Last year we were the #1 seed. With 25 secs to go we had just a 3 point lead against the #16 seed. Luckily we made our free throws. Question - name me the last #1 seed that had trouble beating a #16 seed in the tournament? Check it out.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Okay, let me ask you this. Last year we were the #1 seed. With 25 secs to go we had just a 3 point lead against the #16 seed. Luckily we made our free throws. Question - name me the last #1 seed that had trouble beating a #16 seed in the tournament? Check it out.

I didn't realize we were talking about near-losses. So now we're taking credit away from JB for games he ended up winning?


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[shandeezy7]

Okay, let me ask you this. Last year we were the #1 seed. With 25 secs to go we had just a 3 point lead against the #16 seed. Luckily we made our free throws. Question - name me the last #1 seed that had trouble beating a #16 seed in the tournament? Check it out.

Define trouble...There have been plenty of 1 v. 16 games in the last 10-15 years in which the 16 seed was within single digits right up until the last minutes. I'm sure your definition of "trouble" will be narrowed down so much that only Syracuse can fit into it.

 

[orange79]

Okay, let me ask you this. Last year we were the #1 seed. With 25 secs to go we had just a 3 point lead against the #16 seed. Luckily we made our free throws. Question - name me the last #1 seed that had trouble beating a #16 seed in the tournament? Check it out.

OK.

1989 - OK beat E Tenn St 72-71
1989 - Georgetown beat Princeton 50-49
1990 - Michigan St beat Murray St 75-71 in overtime
1996 - Purdue beat W Carolina 73-71.

And there are plenty of times a 1 seed has beaten a 16 seed by 10 points or less.

Check it out.

Silly argument. Has Syracuse had some bad losses? Sure. Are they the most ridiculous losses in NCAA history? No.

Oh, btw, a 2 seed has lost 6 times in the first round. Syracuse (1991), Arizona (1993), South Carolina (1997), Iowa St (2001), and twice, just this past year - Missouri and Duke.

Do your homework.

 

[Oakland]

Take the results of the NCAAT since 1985 (assuming 300 DI schools):

*There have only been 42 teams to fill 112 final four spots (less than 15% of all DI teams).
*Only 25 teams have made multiple Final Fours (about 8% of teams)
*Only 14 schools have multiple championship game appearances. That's less than 5% of teams in 79% of championship slots (44/56)
*Only 8 schools have 3+ appearances. That’s about 2.5% of schools in 57% of finals slots (32/56).

*17 teams have won 28 championships since 1985 (about 5.5% of schools), all from major conferences except UNLV in 1990
*6 schools (Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, UConn, Florida) have multiple championships that total 17 of those 28 (less than 2% of schools taking more than 60% of the championships).

Obviously, Syracuse is part of the “haves” in the past three decades, even without extensive runs and multiple championships:
*Only 6 schools have more championships than SU (98th percentile)
*Only 3 schools have more championship game appearances than SU (99th percentile)
*Only 9 schools have more final fours than SU (97th percentile)

Anyone who thinks SU (i.e. Jim Boeheim) is not "elite, great" or one of the best coaches around is an idiot. Doug Gottlieb is an idiot. It would be nice to have the insane results of Coach K (11 Final Fours, 8 title appearances in 28 seasons!) but it is ridiculous to say SU is not top-tier even without considering the many Big East accomplishments. There's probably only been about 7-9 schools who have better tournament success (FFs or better) in the modern era so we, the fans, just need to relax and stop comparing everything. Enjoy the games, not the numbers.

If you had been here in 2008, you would have seen many SUfan posters who thought much worse of JB than DG does now.

 

[orange2win]

Define trouble...There have been plenty of 1 v. 16 games in the last 10-15 years in which the 16 seed was within single digits right up until the last minutes. I'm sure your definition of "trouble" will be narrowed down so much that only Syracuse can fit into it.

I'm simply paraphrasing the critics arguments, which the broadcasters repeat every year - that SU has a record of early losses in the tournament. You mention the last 15 years. In that period, only one #1 seed has failed to beat the #16 seed by at least double digits. That's one in 60 games. No big deal, we still won, but just adds more fuel for the critics.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm simply paraphrasing the critics arguments, which the broadcasters repeat every year - that SU has a record of early losses in the tournament. You mention the last 15 years. In that period, only one #1 seed has failed to beat the #16 seed by at least double digits. That's one in 60 games. No big deal, we still won, but just adds more fuel for the critics.

It didn't read like you were paraphrasing. The facts above are the facts.

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[dinno28]

Take the results of the NCAAT since 1985 (assuming 300 DI schools):

*There have only been 42 teams to fill 112 final four spots (less than 15% of all DI teams).
*Only 25 teams have made multiple Final Fours (about 8% of teams)
*Only 14 schools have multiple championship game appearances. That's less than 5% of teams in 79% of championship slots (44/56)
*Only 8 schools have 3+ appearances. That’s about 2.5% of schools in 57% of finals slots (32/56).

*17 teams have won 28 championships since 1985 (about 5.5% of schools), all from major conferences except UNLV in 1990
*6 schools (Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, UConn, Florida) have multiple championships that total 17 of those 28 (less than 2% of schools taking more than 60% of the championships).

Obviously, Syracuse is part of the “haves” in the past three decades, even without extensive runs and multiple championships:
*Only 6 schools have more championships than SU (98th percentile)
*Only 3 schools have more championship game appearances than SU (99th percentile)
*Only 9 schools have more final fours than SU (97th percentile)

Anyone who thinks SU (i.e. Jim Boeheim) is not "elite, great" or one of the best coaches around is an idiot. Doug Gottlieb is an idiot. It would be nice to have the insane results of Coach K (11 Final Fours, 8 title appearances in 28 seasons!) but it is ridiculous to say SU is not top-tier even without considering the many Big East accomplishments. There's probably only been about 7-9 schools who have better tournament success (FFs or better) in the modern era so we, the fans, just need to relax and stop comparing everything. Enjoy the games, not the numbers.

thank you for the post ... it puts things in a little better perspective

 

[orange79]

It didn't read like you were paraphrasing. The facts above are the facts.

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Exactly. If you are going to 'paraphrase', say so. The OP came off as personal opinion.

 

[Rocco]

88.4%

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Nobody would dare call them out on that though. Duke is ESPN's love child.

 

[kirbivore]

I don't see how most of these are "rediculous"

I'll give you 88 and 91, although we just had a 15 beat a 2 this year. Ours was hardly the only one, just the first.

13s beat 4s and 12s beat 5s all the time. There are at least a few of these upsets every year. 2011 was an upset in seeding only. Marquette had already beaten us that year and was a terrible match-up for us.

also the committee could have very easily moved teams up or down a seed to make sure Big East teams didn't match up until at least the sweet 16. If they make sure teams from leagues that get 8 or less bids don't match up until the elite 8, the next logical step would be pushing that criteria to the sweet 16 once 9+ teams from one league get bids. They were just too damn lazy.

 

[kirbivore]

What percentage of Duke's NCAA tournament games were played in North Carolina?

In the Coach K era (1980/81 - ) Duke has played 103 tourney games. 30 of them were in North Carolina for a result of 29.13%