Syracuse was, is, and always will be...

[cusestudent]

Well, there never has been a national championship for football. Basketball and Lacrosse:

Syracuse
Maryland
UNC
Duke

SU has never won a national championship in football? Your logic is a little more than risky.

 

[midloviking]

Nice sig, focker.

Doh!

 

[Townie72]

How does the average ticket price compare between basketball and football? How about the portion of TV revenue attributable to football vs. that attributable to basketball?

Your comments might be germaine if this were a conversation about revenue. It's not. It's about the amount of support that the different sports generate on campus and in the hearts and minds of the alumni and fans.

If you want to talk about revenue, then you might also want to comment on profitability or revenue minus costs. An AD onc told me --- only somewhat tongue in cheek --- that you could run a basketball program for the cost of the athletic tape a football program uses in a year. The point is that especially at SU the basketball program is hugey more profitable than the football program.

The last time SU was a football school was in the 1960's.

I'd be willing to bet that if the alumni were forced to choose between having a football program and having a basketball program, the majority would choose basketball over football.

 

[Townie72]

There is zero logic to your argument, are you sure you went to SU? I agree that SU has become a basketball school over the past decade, but that only because of a national championship while football was in the gutter. You cannot replace the other 50 plus years of football owning the school...who did SU sell those 750k tickets to? I bet they were mostly season tickets, and people that went multiple times without season tickets, same thing as with football. You cannot compare 30 games to 7 I'm sorry, but you make a foolish argument. Here's the counter: basketball was a top 3 program all year, and how many sellouts were there? (ones that amounted to 30k plus) The answer is twice, once against UCONN and once against UL. Football had four games with 40k plus in attendance: Wake, Rutgirls, USF, and WVU. All of the games were above 35k, which makes 6 to basketballs 2. The team has been in the gutters forever and many alums have turned their back on football. Most people that go to basketball games are not die hards in the way football has diehards; most in fact are just casual fans that want to see some great bball teams plays. So to dismiss SU as a basketball school is foolish, especially when SU sells out 80 plus percent of the seats nearly every game after a decade of irrelevance.

Yes, yes I'm an SU grad (a double SU grad). ANd I have been following SU sports for almost the whole 50 years you talk about in your post.

You need to re-read your defense of SU as a football school. In it you do a very good job of refuting your own position (e.g., "I agree that SU has become a basketball school ...". And " ... a decade of irrelevance".

Your point seems to be "basketball was good. Football was awful. So it's unfair to compare them. And that makes SU a football school"?

 

[Townie72]

This isnt 1959 anymore.

Not even close. 5th most wins all time. Year after year competing for a national title. Hell the Dome is even known more as basketball arena than a football stadium.

Love the football program and will support it till the day I die but we are a basketball school. If they could rewite the fight song to make it more hoops oriented they would.

Of course. This claim the "SU is a football school" is an example of wishing something were true and then declaring it true.

SU was once a football school ... even when Bing was plying his trade on the Hill.

Princeton and Penn and Army and Navy used to be National football powers in the 1940's.

How mmany alumni and residents of CNY know Boeheim is the basketball coach? I'd say virtually all of them. How many of them know who the SU football coash is? A much smaller number.

 

[Townie72]

Ummm, when did SU play 30 home basketball games this year?

Whoops. You are right.

Basketball only drew twice as many fans.

In the 90's when both teams were relevant, SU couldn't be described as a "football school". That claim hasn't been true sicne the Schwartzwalder era.

 

[cusestudent]

Yes, yes I'm an SU grad (a double SU grad). ANd I have been following SU sports for almost the whole 50 years you talk about in your post.

You need to re-read your defense of SU as a football school. In it you do a very good job of refuting your own position (e.g., "I agree that SU has become a basketball school ...". And " ... a decade of irrelevance".

Your point seems to be "basketball was good. Football was awful. So it's unfair to compare them. And that makes SU a football school"?

That is not even close to being my argument. You are stating that SU has been a basketball school since the 70s. Well, no not really. Both have been true in streaks, the 50s and 60s football was king, in the 70s both were more on par but football was still king, in the early 80s football was irrelevant and basketball picked up, once the late 80s hit though they were both consistently national powers until football fell off the map in the early 2000s. Basketball has been more successful RECENTLY, but SU is not a basketball school; it will never be a school that is defined by one sport. SU is the pinnacle of lax and at one point they were the pinnacle of football, but when has SU basketball ever been the unquestioned top dog? In 2003 when they won the national championship? Where is the statue of Derrick Coleman or Jim Boeheim? What's the most famous number at SU? Isn't that number an integral part of Syracuse culture and lore? Also when did I say SU was a football school?

 

[Marsh01]

Here are a couple of more tidbits (and this is coming from a guy who also lives and dies with the football program as much as the basketball program).

We are a basketball POWERHOUSE, not a basketball school. Big difference. With recruiting going as well as it is going, moving to the ACC, playing for a national championship year after year we have become a basketball powerhouse. We basically select players to recruit as opposed to recruit players. Hell Noel is the #1 ranked player in high school and we have a reasonable shot at landing him.

Football is different. I think most of it has to do with the landscape of college football today. We are never going to win a national championship in football in my lifetime (I'm 41). Just isnt going to happen unless more teams are brought into the post season equation. We cant compete with SEC schools, Big 10 schools or Big 12 schools for the top recruits. We basically recruit the leftovers that the better programs dont want and hope 4-5-6 of these kids end up panning out. We are never going to get the #1 (or top 10 for that matter) recruit to come to play here. We could have a magical season, go 11-1 and still not play for a national title.

Kids want to come to Syracuse to play basketball. Kids dont want to come here to play football. That may change and I for one would love to see it happen. I just dont think it ever will.

 

[RoysRunts]

It's a Boeheim School, Let's see what happens to BBALL when he retires

 

[Townie72]

That is not even close to being my argument. You are stating that SU has been a basketball school since the 70s. Well, no not really. Both have been true in streaks, the 50s and 60s football was king, in the 70s both were more on par but football was still king, in the early 80s football was irrelevant and basketball picked up, once the late 80s hit though they were both consistently national powers until football fell off the map in the early 2000s. Basketball has been more successful RECENTLY, but SU is not a basketball school; it will never be a school that is defined by one sport. SU is the pinnacle of lax and at one point they were the pinnacle of football, but when has SU basketball ever been the unquestioned top dog? In 2003 when they won the national championship? Where is the statue of Derrick Coleman or Jim Boeheim? What's the most famous number at SU? Isn't that number an integral part of Syracuse culture and lore? Also when did I say SU was a football school?

After reading that, I have no idea what you are arguing. The first thing that jumped out at me was your complete mischaracterization of the 1970's. Do you have any idea who Frank Maloney even is (or was)? As bad as the GRob era was for SU football, the 1970's were even worse. I sat in Archbold and watched SU play against quality opponents and there weren't 10,000 fans in the stands. It was a time when there was a university committee to downgrade or eliminate football. The committee recommended we de-emphasize the sport but were over-ruled by the Chancellor.

It was in the 1970's when basketball started to seriously crowd SU football off the stage with our first Final Four under Roy Danforth and than Boeheim.

It's been almost 50 years since a real star wore 44. It's a great memory for us old timers, but gor everyone else it's increasingly the far distant past.

 

[Townie72]

It's a Boeheim School, Let's see what happens to BBALL when he retires

The transition from Simmons to Desko didn't seem to hurt lacrosse. The transition from Danforth (Your boy) to JB worked out OK. Even Mac to P worked for a number of years.

In fact, I can't think of any big time basketball programs that tanked after the retirement of a long time coach. UNC seems to have done OK post-Dean Smith.

 

[SU2NASA]

in my time of caring about SU ( the 70's on) football has, for the most, part stunk. It is a bridge from summer to basketball season. That is all. If SU doesn't raise sufficient capital to compete, it will be Duke or worse. The age of small private schools not named USC or ND competing regularly are just about over.

It's incredibly shortsighted to declare SU a basketball school now - in the 90's, when both programs were good, there was no doubt that Syracuse was a football school with a good basketball program as Boeheim himself said a few years later. The football program has been down thanks to the cratering by Greg Robinson, but make no mistake that the program will be back. Football at Syracuse has seen rough times, but when it does come back, no matter how good basketball is, there's no doubt that we're a football school.

I find it very similar to Detroit, which there's no doubt is a baseball town. In the 90's when the Red Wings were winning Stanley Cups and the Tigers were awful, Detroit was still a baseball town. Now that they're both good, it's completely apparent what sport is the most important in Detroit.

If the football program became a perennial bowl team and a competitor for division titles in the ACC, not even a national championship contender, you bet your ass that football will again be king in most peoples minds.

 

[cusestudent]

After reading that, I have no idea what you are arguing. The first thing that jumped out at me was your complete mischaracterization of the 1970's. Do you have any idea who Frank Maloney even is (or was)? As bad as the GRob era was for SU football, the 1970's were even worse. I sat in Archbold and watched SU play against quality opponents and there weren't 10,000 fans in the stands. It was a time when there was a university committee to downgrade or eliminate football. The committee recommended we de-emphasize the sport but were over-ruled by the Chancellor.

It was in the 1970's when basketball started to seriously crowd SU football off the stage with our first Final Four under Roy Danforth and than Boeheim.

It's been almost 50 years since a real star wore 44. It's a great memory for us old timers, but gor everyone else it's increasingly the far distant past.

I'm saying that SU isn't a basketball school or a football school. Duke is a basketball school, Kentucky is a basketball school, SU has too prestigious of a football program to be just a basketball school. And the 70s I didn't know much about at all, my fault on that one.

 

[Marsh01]

If the football program became a perennial bowl team and a competitor for division titles in the ACC, not even a national championship contender, you bet your ass that football will again be king in most peoples minds.

See that's the thing. I really dont care about peoples minds, I care about recruits minds, media minds which in the espn world we live in probably has an impact. It doesnt help us win football games when we as fans think we are a football school. Until that happens basketball will be the king of the hill.

 

[SU2NASA]

See that's the thing. I really dont care about peoples minds, I care about recruits minds, media minds which in the espn world we live in probably has an impact. It doesnt help us win football games when we as fans think we are a football school. Until that happens basketball will be the king of the hill.

Was just talking to another Cuse alum/friend. What's come to bother us about the recruiting (well, one of the many things), is this idea of Marrone's focus on developing young men. Obviously this isn't working. These kids are attending Syracuse University to be good at football and win games. As long as they're not committing felonies, their job is to win. Just freakin' win. And if he can't, get someone else in there that can, and can bring in kids who will win.

The only real argument that we're not a football school anymore is that people have become complacent about what it takes to have a major football program.

 

[xc84]

Cuse has good programs in football, basketball, lacrosse, and many other sports. Just because the football program has been in a trough, it does not cease to be a "football school". Right now, basketball gets the press and is the more competitive program but things change. Who would have thought in 1977 that ten years later, the SU football team would be undefeated, ranked number 4, and the SU basketball team would be in the championship game. It happened. Then, in the 90s, Cuse football was one of the winningest programs in college football with marque players like McNabb and Freeney...and once again the basketball team was in the championship game. Winning football will return...in the meantime, be fans of the teams and stop the silly labeling.

 

[Marsh01]

Was just talking to another Cuse alum/friend. What's come to bother us about the recruiting (well, one of the many things), is this idea of Marrone's focus on developing young men. Obviously this isn't working. These kids are attending Syracuse University to be good at football and win games. As long as they're not committing felonies, their job is to win. Just freakin' win. And if he can't, get someone else in there that can, and can bring in kids who will win.

The only real argument that we're not a football school anymore is that people have become complacent about what it takes to have a major football program.

Oh hell I completely agree. I applaud Marrone and what he is trying to do here by molding kids into better people. I get that. However its not translating to wins on the football field. Plus we still have our fair share of issues with off the field troubles so is it really working?

 

[xc84]

Oh hell I completely agree. I applaud Marrone and what he is trying to do here by molding kids into better people. I get that. However its not translating to wins on the football field. Plus we still have our fair share of issues with off the field troubles so is it really working?

Turning a program around (legally) takes time. Changing a culture takes time. The jury is out as to whether it is working.

 

[SU2NASA]

Turning a program around (legally) takes time. Changing a culture takes time. The jury is out as to whether it is working.

Honest question - do you think our recruiting is any better than it was four years ago?

 

[xc84]

Honest question - do you think our recruiting is any better than it was four years ago?

Yes. I think it was better this year than 4 years ago (2009 class). That's not to say this is the desired end state...but yes, I think we got guys who will play and compete better. We got good size and speed with this year's class. That was the theme. I think Marrone had a recruiting strategy and that is in contrast to his predecessor (IMO).

 

[SU2NASA]

Yes. I think it was better this year than 4 years ago (2009 class). That's not to say this is the desired end state...but yes, I think we got guys who will play and compete better. We got good size and speed with this year's class. That was the theme. I think Marrone had a recruiting strategy and that is in contrast to his predecessor (IMO).

I agree that it's in contrast with his predecessor, but the focus seems to be on "character". Character isn't winning football games. You can sell character when you're Michigan, the school, the facilities, the tradition sells itself. At Syracuse you need to sell more just to compete with the rung below the Michigans of the world, and I think what we're seeing is the ceiling, and I'm not convinced that it's much better.

The coaching, especially on defense, is better, but we're still one of the least talented programs in a bad conference.

 

[Bayside44]

We're a hoops school. Heck, UNC gets 60k to football games and guys all over the place in the NFL, and you don't for a second think of them in football.

 

[xc84]

I agree that it's in contrast with his predecessor, but the focus seems to be on "character". Character isn't winning football games. You can sell character when you're Michigan, the school, the facilities, the tradition sells itself. At Syracuse you need to sell more just to compete with the rung below the Michigans of the world, and I think what we're seeing is the ceiling, and I'm not convinced that it's much better.

The coaching, especially on defense, is better, but we're still one of the least talented programs in a bad conference.

The focus is not just one thing. Bring in good players and teach/reinforce good character. You honestly think Marrone is focusing more on character than talent? His job is on the line!

 

[SU2NASA]

The focus is not just one thing. Bring in good players and teach/reinforce good character. You honestly think Marrone is focusing more on character than talent? His job is on the line!

For someone who's job is on the line, he's not off to a good start this year.

 

[xc84]

For someone who's job is on the line, he's not off to a good start this year.

He's 0-0 so far this year and tied with every other team. That's why they play the games.