Talent? Who needs talent?

[anomander]

Apparently Syracuse doesn't if you are basing anything off of Phil Steele's Pre-Season All-ACC teams (oh, and it goes 4 teams deep). Usually pre-season publications are worthless, but Steele seems to be one of the only ones who is universally accepted as being an accurate, must-read.

Syracuse is the only ACC school without 1 player on any of the 4 offensive teams. The defensive side wasn't much better, even though Ron Thompson got in as 4th team DE. This just shows how we tend to over estimate our own talent, and shows despite how well everyone thinks this staff has been recruiting, it's not all that great. I mean you may even want to get crazy and try to relate average recruiting rankings (13th or 14th past few yrs in our case) to All-Conference players. And yes I know these are pre-season rankings, but last year we only placed Hickey 4th team offense, and Lynch 3rd team defense, on the 2014 All-ACC.

 

[jekelish]

We may not have someone on the first four teams in the preseason, but we've got a couple offensive guys who SHOULD be on there by the end. Ishmael and Philips in particular.

But yes, the lack of talent on offense is worrisome. The lack of overall talent is, really, when you try to think about who may be in position to be drafted next year. Our best talent, it's pretty clear, is in the '14 and '15 recruiting classes. That's not idea for this upcoming season.

 

[KaiserUEO]

clearly, Steele does not read the board.

theres some dead nuts-on talent evaluators here who differ...

 

[storange]

A few points
1- Our defense played well the last 5 or 6 games last year and were saddled with no help from the the other side of the ball.
2- Is it a great insight by Phil Steele that we were bad offensively. Preseason teams are based on last year and we were ripped by injuries on O.
3- Having Hunt back is extremely important for this team. I do not dispute anything from PS analysis but I don't think it means much.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Is Erv Phillips really going to be one of the 8 best WR's in the ACC by the end of the year?

 

[RF2044]

Apparently Syracuse doesn't if you are basing anything off of Phil Steele's Pre-Season All-ACC teams (oh, and it goes 4 teams deep). Usually pre-season publications are worthless, but Steele seems to be one of the only ones who is universally accepted as being an accurate, must-read.

Syracuse is the only ACC school without 1 player on any of the 4 offensive teams. The defensive side wasn't much better, even though Ron Thompson got in as 4th team DE. This just shows how we tend to over estimate our own talent, and shows despite how well everyone thinks this staff has been recruiting, it's not all that great. I mean you may even want to get crazy and try to relate average recruiting rankings (13th or 14th past few yrs in our case) to All-Conference players. And yes I know these are pre-season rankings, but last year we only placed Hickey 4th team offense, and Lynch 3rd team defense, on the 2014 All-ACC.

Spot on. There is an enormous bias on this forum which consistently overestimates the talent level on the team. I am convinced that many posters just watch SU games, and not much other college football--because the talent / playmaking disparity [especially on offense] is easily identifiable when you do. We have a LONG way to go to bring that talent level up to where it needs to be--especially in terms of offensive playmakers.

I think we've really improved the talent / depth at a couple of important positional units--most notably OL, DL, LB, and obviously RB.

Nothing against Dungey / Womack, but I fell like we still have issues at QB, and also WR, DE, S, and CB.

 

[jekelish]

Is Erv Phillips really going to be one of the 8 best WR's in the ACC by the end of the year?

Probably not, but he's also in a weird position where people don't really know what his position will be. I'm not saying he's one of the 8 best WRs...but I think he and Ishmael are the two guys on our offense who would actually play for almost every team in the ACC. After those two...I think there's a substantial drop off in talent. But I'm convinced those two guys have the ability to be difference makers.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Probably not, but he's also in a weird position where people don't really know what his position will be. I'm not saying he's one of the 8 best WRs...but I think he and Ishmael are the two guys on our offense who would actually play for almost every team in the ACC. After those two...I think there's a substantial drop off in talent. But I'm convinced those two guys have the ability to be difference makers.

Ishmael I get and think with better QB play, he could do a lot of damage. I don't see how Phillips is different than what I see every week against SU. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think he's better than Estime.

 

[jekelish]

Ishmael I get and think with better QB play, he could do a lot of damage. I don't see how Phillips is different than what I see every week against SU. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think he's better than Estime.

I think it's fair to hold off on Erv until we see how well he catches the ball, obviously. So I'm willing to put him on the back burner for now. I just think the athleticism is there to be a Tavon Austin type for us.

 

[JrodCuse]

Things I like about all of this: We're going to surprise some teams this year. No way we will be as bad as last year unless the injury plague hits us again. I like that noone is giving us any credit. Everyone is figuring we'll just continue our crappy season, when if you look at the last 5 years, last year really was the outlier of those seasons.

 

[jekelish]

Things I like about all of this: We're going to surprise some teams this year. No way we will be as bad as last year unless the injury plague hits us again. I like that noone is giving us any credit. Everyone is figuring we'll just continue our crappy season, when if you look at the last 5 years, last year really was the outlier of those seasons.

I think from a skill position aspect, we can be adequate. The o-line is absolutely, 100% my biggest concern for this team right now.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Spot on. There is an enormous bias on this forum which consistently overestimates the talent level on the team. I am convinced that many posters just watch SU games, and not much other college football--because the talent / playmaking disparity [especially on offense] is easily identifiable when you do. We have a LONG way to go to bring that talent level up to where it needs to be--especially in terms of offensive playmakers.

I think we've really improved the talent / depth at a couple of important positional units--most notably OL, DL, LB, and obviously RB.

Nothing against Dungey / Womack, but I fell like we still have issues at QB, WR, DE, S, and CB.

Agreed. You and others have mentioned peer programs. You also mentioned that Stefon Diggs. Perfect example with Maryland and Maryland's other WR was a beast as well. Maryland just looked WAY more imposing on offense than we did. Parker on Louisville is a stud but Louisville generally recruits pretty well these days. Ishmael looks like a good player to me but he doesn't really flash and stand out on the TV in these games. IMO he's a number 3 receiver on a top 25 team at best. We have a long way to go. Hopefully this Robert Washington can lure some more athletic and skilled players in here.

 

[CTMick]

Is Erv Phillips really going to be one of the 8 best WR's in the ACC by the end of the year?

Not with any of the current QBs on roster throwing to him.

 

[Chip]

Thanks for crushing my optimism than if we win the 4 we should win, we'll win 2 more.

The realist or pessimist (depending on your view) would say that our head coach is going into his 7th year with the program, 3rd as HC, and we find ourselves in transition mode both on defense (personnel losses) and offense (system). That's not so good.

Although I will say, for a team without much talent, we seem to get a few too many guys who take their ball and go home when they have eligibility left.

 

[Trueblue25]

Zaire Franklin, Ron thompson, Wayne Morgan, Steve Ishmael

Our only shots in my opinion.

 

[RMH44]

Ishmael I get and think with better QB play, he could do a lot of damage. I don't see how Phillips is different than what I see every week against SU. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think he's better than Estime.

I like Ish a lot but I think IF Custis can consistently catch the ball, that he has a chance to be a game changer. I love his size and speed but I haven't seen him catch a ball cleanly yet.

 

[jekelish]

Agreed. You and others have mentioned peer programs. You also mentioned that Stefon Diggs. Perfect example with Maryland and Maryland's other WR was a beast as well. Maryland just looked WAY more imposing on offense than we did. Parker on Louisville is a stud but Louisville generally recruits pretty well these days. Ishmael looks like a good player to me but he doesn't really flash and stand out on the TV in these games. IMO he's a number 3 receiver on a top 25 team at best. We have a long way to go. Hopefully this Robert Washington can lure some more athletic and skilled players in here.

I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I can tell you that Team Washington thinks Ishmael is a clear cut star prospect at WR, so whoever Robert might be able to lure in, they think that Ish is as good as any of them.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I can tell you that Team Washington thinks Ishmael is a clear cut star prospect at WR, so whoever Robert might be able to lure in, they think that Ish is as good as any of them.

Didn't know that. Pretty cool!

 

[tep624]

I think from a skill position aspect, we can be adequate. The o-line is absolutely, 100% my biggest concern for this team right now.

Yep. It was the biggest concern last year. Knapp and Curtis with their career ending injuries puts us down 2 guys that would have been on the 2 deep, Hickey and Miller graduating, and Denzel Ward not really developing...definitely concerned.

I'm not so concerned about the starting unit as I am their ability to stay healthy and what comes after them.

 

[jekelish]

Didn't know that. Pretty cool!

I can tell you that after watching film on Ish, RW's dad told me that he thinks he should easily have been at least a 4-star talent coming out of HS. He's very, very, very high on Ish.

Not that it makes or breaks Steve, but just to show that people who until recently were not associated with SU are viewing Ish in a very positive light.

 

[ImperialOrange]

If it's any solace, Steele is usually dead nuts wrong about all things SU.

2012
Steele prediction 7th Big East Actual T-1
2013
Steele prediction 7th ACC Atlantic Actual T-3
2014
Steele prediction 4th ACC Atlantic Actual T-7

 

[anomander]

Agreed. You and others have mentioned peer programs. You also mentioned that Stefon Diggs. Perfect example with Maryland and Maryland's other WR was a beast as well. Maryland just looked WAY more imposing on offense than we did. Parker on Louisville is a stud but Louisville generally recruits pretty well these days. Ishmael looks like a good player to me but he doesn't really flash and stand out on the TV in these games. IMO he's a number 3 receiver on a top 25 team at best. We have a long way to go. Hopefully this Robert Washington can lure some more athletic and skilled players in here.

I get what you're saying, and I agree for the most part when we're talking overall talent, but I differ in opinion when it comes to Ish. I think Ish is a stud, and if he can eventually have someone who can get him the ball he could be 1st, or 2nd team All-ACC.

 

[RF2044]

I get what you're saying, and I agree for the most part when we're talking overall talent, but I differ in opinion when it comes to Ish. I think Ish is a stud, and if he can eventually have someone who can get him the ball he could be 1st, or 2nd team All-ACC.

Could be. I liked what I saw last year. But I'm not going to annoint him until he gets it done more consistently [not just flashes] and becomes a consistent producer. Which is possible [probable?] since he has a year's worth of valuable starting experience under his belt--something to build upon. Here's hoping we have the QB to deliver the ball to him. I'm just not really sure what we have in Ish, nor how good he is relative to the rest of the college football landscape at this juncture of his career. The answser will begin to take form come September.

 

[phil77]

We still have Big East talent.

 

[anomander]

Could be. I liked what I saw last year. But I'm not going to annoint him until he gets it done more consistently [not just flashes] and becomes a consistent producer. Which is possible [probable?] since he has a year's worth of valuable starting experience under his belt--something to build upon. Here's hoping we have the QB to deliver the ball to him. I'm just not really sure what we have in Ish, nor how good he is relative to the rest of the college football landscape at this juncture of his career. The answser will begin to take form come September.

See and this is the difference between Syracuse, and Clemson. Most people here think Ish should have been a 4star WR coming out of HS. Well he wasn't. The 4star WR's were Artavius Scott who was a 4star in 2014, and Mike Williams who was a 4star in 2013. Those are Steele's 1st team All-ACC WR's (both made 3rd team All-ACC last year). Now i'm a huge Ish fan, and personally feel he will eventually work himself into an All-ACC WR, but that's the difference between the type of players Clemson gets, and what Syracuse gets. 4stars, or the top talent should be ready to compete in year 1, and be all league in year 2. Everyone can get pissy about the star system, but for the most part they are pretty accurate in relation to our talent.