The 2 keys to a loss | Syracusefan.com

The 2 keys to a loss

rrlbees

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FTs and rebounding. That’s it.

People can complain about the offense (and it wasn’t good) and people can go on and on about how good Buffalos offense looked and how they move the ball blah blah blah. But as bad as ours was, we still outshot them by 5 percentage points and turnovers were equal.

But it wasn’t enough to overcome poor rebounding which gave them too many second chances and our woeful foul shooting.
 
Is it possible our rebounding issues are, in part, due to our generally lethargic style of play? It’s weird to think that we can be slow and plodding most of the time, but then have short bursts of frantic energy to rebound. Rebounding isn’t entirely about effort as some suggest, you gotta have some skill and positioning as well. But a lot of it is energy and we don’t play with much on either end of the court.
 
Playing a tweener at SF yet again certainly can't help the rebounding numbers. And our centers are physically incapable of boxing out.

The team is in a real pickle. The only way the offense can improve, by getting some cheap points, is to run. In order to run, the frontcourt has to grab clean boards without help from the guards. But we have to commit the guards to rebounding to avoid getting killed on the glass.

It looks like the team has a choice to make each game. Score in transition and give up rebounds or rebound and pass up transition buckets.
 
Is it possible our rebounding issues are, in part, due to our generally lethargic style of play? It’s weird to think that we can be slow and plodding most of the time, but then have short bursts of frantic energy to rebound. Rebounding isn’t entirely about effort as some suggest, you gotta have some skill and positioning as well. But a lot of it is energy and we don’t play with much on either end of the court.

Yes agreed. Our energy levels have been pitiful this year. Does not look like the players get mad at all. I think I could count on one hand how many times I have seen players diving on the floor for loose balls (not counting the times Chukwu has fallen over someone). I give Jimmy tons of credit but if your team does not play with fire then you need to make changes, drill it into them at practice and make it an emphasis. We just got totally outworked at home by a mid major (albeit a good mid major) and that can not happen.

Cuse!
 
I just see a total, save for a few moments, overall laziness on both ends of the court. I see players just watching the rebound instead of going after it. I see lazy screens, lazy loose ball effort, lazy passes.
 
Tyus hit a 3 at the 8:12 minute mark of the 2nd half to make it 53-53. Scored 6 the rest of the way. Tyus hit 2 FTs at 4:25 to make it 59-57. Only points after that was a layup with about a minute to go that was basically a free one as UB was up 10 at the time.

Not disagreeing with the original post at all. Just went through the play-by-play and saw how bad this really was down the stretch, and those numbers stick out. This sequence was pretty much it, and has what was mentioned here.
4:11, Marek misses front end of 1-1, leaving score down 59-57.
3:50, UB hits a 3 to go up 62-57
3:34, Frank misses, Hughes rebound, Oshae misses 3
2:54 UB misses, UB offensive rebound, UB hits jumper to make it 64-57.
2:23, Oshae misses 2 FTs.
That was pretty much it after that.
 
FTs and rebounding. That’s it.

People can complain about the offense (and it wasn’t good) and people can go on and on about how good Buffalos offense looked and how they move the ball blah blah blah. But as bad as ours was, we still outshot them by 5 percentage points and turnovers were equal
But it wasn’t enough to overcome poor rebounding which gave them too many second chances and our woeful foul shooting.
I think that's an oversimplification response. For most of the game Buffalo couldn't hit the broad side of a barn but they were in much better positioning for offensive rebounds. Eventually the more chances you get the odds are you are going to put some in the hoop. I believe UB was averaging 85 points per game and we "held" them to 71. That's a positive but for most of the game they were on pace to only score about 60 or so points.

The last five minutes or so was incredibly ugly. We didn't look like a team that was winning the game up to that point. Once UB took the lead we played really bad. Bad turnovers, bad shot selection, forgetting how to shoot free throws. People can blame whomever they want but it was a collective effort right down the line. It's a shame because we had done some good things and showed some grit and our fans were into it. However, it ended up being a fast death.
 
Part of me thinks that the poor FT shooting may be getting in the players’ heads... which might be making them less likely to take the ball strong to the basket (and more likely to settle for long jumpers instead). Oshae’s regression at the FT line has been a real problem. 16 FT attempts a year ago, and only 3 last night. And on his lone FT attempt in the 1st half, he was so far off the mark, he almost banked it in.
 
Hitting free throws would just be covering up a systemic issue that has been going on since 2014.

We havent had the record weve had for going on five seasons now because of FTs (or probation for that matter)

I think my post was about last nights game.
 
Even if we won this game it doesn’t change what has happened to the program overall.
We have been a slow tempo, defense first squad.
That has hurt the offense as we don’t do anything to get easy points and this is with the entire starting 5 back from last year.
That is on the coaches.
1 or 2 games don’t change the problems.
Buffalo beat us because of rebounding.
 
I think my post was about last nights game.
Right. And then there will be reason for the next loss to a mediocre team. And the next one, and the one after that on the road to another nineteen win season. It’s textbook missing the forest for the trees.

Hopefully we’ll be just good enough to snag the last at large or two and bring biggger rocks to the fight for a game or two. That seems to be the recipe for success for the Syracuse program these days.
 
FTs and rebounding. That’s it.

People can complain about the offense (and it wasn’t good) and people can go on and on about how good Buffalos offense looked and how they move the ball blah blah blah. But as bad as ours was, we still outshot them by 5 percentage points and turnovers were equal.

But it wasn’t enough to overcome poor rebounding which gave them too many second chances and our woeful foul shooting.
it's all because of the zone.

we suck at FTs because we can't shoot. there is a tradeoff between guys big enough to play the front of the zone and shooting.

we suck at rebounding because we are weak. there is a tradeoff between guys agile enough to block shots and get out to shooters in the back of the zone and rebounding.

other teams have shorter guards who can make shots and stronger forwards who can rebound. we have long arms at the top of the zone affecting shooting and passing lanes and long arms blocking shots in the back

so we can't just look at FTs and rebounding and shrug - there are tradeoffs

our offense and winning percentage overall are making people question whether the tradeoffs are changing while our strategy is not
 
FTs and rebounding. That’s it.

People can complain about the offense (and it wasn’t good) and people can go on and on about how good Buffalos offense looked and how they move the ball blah blah blah. But as bad as ours was, we still outshot them by 5 percentage points and turnovers were equal.

But it wasn’t enough to overcome poor rebounding which gave them too many second chances and our woeful foul shooting.

Just a real lack of desire to even try to board. I don't understand our guards. Frank (I think) took a three from the corner last night and just watched it. Everyone who has ever played knows the person in the best position to get an offensive board off of a three is the actual shooter. It was short, fell to the ground and was picked up by UB. All Frank had to do was take 2-3 steps in after his shot and he could have easily gotten the board and likely scored. I love this kid, but he is just not there this year. In any phase of the game. And I honestly thought he was going to be a leader this year, but he's leading the wrong way.
 
We also overlook how poor this team finishes on breakouts. We rarely get easy baskets. Tyus was 1-on-1 last night with a defender, went to the basket, missed the layup, then fouled the defender on the rebound.

My head exploded.
 
FTs and rebounding. That’s it.

People can complain about the offense (and it wasn’t good) and people can go on and on about how good Buffalos offense looked and how they move the ball blah blah blah. But as bad as ours was, we still outshot them by 5 percentage points and turnovers were equal.

But it wasn’t enough to overcome poor rebounding which gave them too many second chances and our woeful foul shooting.

Would you like to analyze this from a macro point of view? Because it's not all about this one game. Here are the last four-plus years.

2014–15 - 18–13, 9–9 ACC (8th)
2015–16 - 23–14, 9–9 ACC (9th) NCAA Final Four (10 SEED)
2016–17 - 19–15, 10–8 ACC (T-7th) NIT
2017–18 - 23–14, 8–10 ACC (T-10th) NCAA Sweet Sixteen (11 SEED)
2018-19 - 7-4, 0-0 ACC

The only other four-year stretch of consecutive double-digit loss seasons:

2005–06 - 23–12, 7–9 BE (T-9th) NCAA Round of 64 (5 SEED)
2006–07 - 24–11, 10–6 BE (T-5th) NIT
2007–08 - 21–14, 9–9 (T-8th) NIT
2008–09 - 28–10, 11–7 (6th) NCAA Sweet Sixteen (3 SEED)

Clearly, the fourth year of the prior stretch was not a bad year. And the next year, if you want to extrapolate, we should have been a national title contender with Onuaku.

The product isn't good. It's not fun to watch. The players I think seem to want to work hard but I don't know that they really know how to. A change needs to happen. Does that mean Boeheim? Does that mean an assistant? I have no idea. But I do know this program has become stale and lacking any sort of punch.

And in my opinion, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
 
We also overlook how poor this team finishes on breakouts. We rarely get easy baskets. Tyus was 1-on-1 last night with a defender, went to the basket, missed the layup, then fouled the defender on the rebound.

My head exploded.

Refused to use his left hand after taking his euro step. That's why he missed. Bad decision making in crisis time.
 
Just a real lack of desire to even try to board. I don't understand our guards. Frank (I think) took a three from the corner last night and just watched it. Everyone who has ever played knows the person in the best position to get an offensive board off of a three is the actual shooter. It was short, fell to the ground and was picked up by UB. All Frank had to do was take 2-3 steps in after his shot and he could have easily gotten the board and likely scored. I love this kid, but he is just not there this year. In any phase of the game. And I honestly thought he was going to be a leader this year, but he's leading the wrong way.

I rarely see any 3 point shooter follow their shot.
 
Would you like to analyze this from a macro point of view? Because it's not all about this one game. Here are the last four-plus years.

2014–15 - 18–13, 9–9 ACC (8th)
2015–16 - 23–14, 9–9 ACC (9th) NCAA Final Four (10 SEED)
2016–17 - 19–15, 10–8 ACC (T-7th) NIT
2017–18 - 23–14, 8–10 ACC (T-10th) NCAA Sweet Sixteen (11 SEED)
2018-19 - 7-4, 0-0 ACC

The only other four-year stretch of consecutive double-digit loss seasons:

2005–06 - 23–12, 7–9 BE (T-9th) NCAA Round of 64 (5 SEED)
2006–07 - 24–11, 10–6 BE (T-5th) NIT
2007–08 - 21–14, 9–9 (T-8th) NIT
2008–09 - 28–10, 11–7 (6th) NCAA Sweet Sixteen (3 SEED)

Clearly, the fourth year of the prior stretch was not a bad year. And the next year, if you want to extrapolate, we should have been a national title contender with Onuaku.

The product isn't good. It's not fun to watch. The players I think seem to want to work hard but I don't know that they really know how to. A change needs to happen. Does that mean Boeheim? Does that mean an assistant? I have no idea. But I do know this program has become stale and lacking any sort of punch.

And in my opinion, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

none of that has anything to do with my post as I wasn't accessing years. I was accessing last nights game where some people think we lost because buffalo runs such a great offense and we don't. I didn't see buffalo running some efficient offense that we couldn't slow down. and that includes some second half 3's by them that were real tough shots. SU takes those shots and we're just jacking up 3's and if they go in we're lucky.
 
As bees accurately points out, last night's loss can definitely be attributed to too many offensive rebounds allowed and horrendous FT shooting.
He's not saying there aren't necessarily other systemic, long-running issues to consider - but this thread is about last night's game and what directly caused the loss.
 
Hitting free throws would just be covering up a systemic issue that has been going on since 2014.

We havent had the record weve had for going on five seasons now because of FTs (or probation for that matter)
Normally, I think the whole "SU is always bad at free throw shooting" narrative gets overplayed, but the exceptionally lousy free throw shooting in the last two games was a big factor in squandering nice leads and letting the opponent hang around.
 
none of that has anything to do with my post as I wasn't accessing years. I was accessing last nights game where some people think we lost because buffalo runs such a great offense and we don't. I didn't see buffalo running some efficient offense that we couldn't slow down. and that includes some second half 3's by them that were real tough shots. SU takes those shots and we're just jacking up 3's and if they go in we're lucky.

The majority of this board thinks the issues with this program run deeper than one game.

But if we want to take a look at things at the micro level, how many open looks did Buffalo get throughout the second half? Memory is fuzzy but I can remember a lot, and at minimum a lot more than Syracuse got.

I would also like to know how many passes Buffalo had on average each possession it had, and compare that to Syracuse. I would be willing to wager a lot of money that Syracuse's average possession had less passes than Buffalo's average possession. Which is why everyone is confounded with the offense that we run.

In fact, I remember one trip down court where Frank Howard dribbled the ball against his man for a good 10 seconds, took a contested mid-range jumper and it went in. Would you consider that a sustainable offense? Or something you'd be happy with on a consistent basis?

Buffalo's offense moved the ball and, for the most part, got good shots. Syracuse's offense was and has been stagnant. Did a number of missed dunks, layups and free throws hurt? Absolutely. Is that on the coaches? No. But what is on the coaches is the way we play and how the team executes.

Half the players don't even look like they're interested in setting a screen or helping a teammate. They just want the ball in their hands. And that is coaching. At minimum, it is recruiting, which is also coaching.
 
The majority of this board thinks the issues with this program run deeper than one game.

But if we want to take a look at things at the micro level, how many open looks did Buffalo get throughout the second half? Memory is fuzzy but I can remember a lot, and at minimum a lot more than Syracuse got.

I would also like to know how many passes Buffalo had on average each possession it had, and compare that to Syracuse. I would be willing to wager a lot of money that Syracuse's average possession had less passes than Buffalo's average possession. Which is why everyone is confounded with the offense that we run.

In fact, I remember one trip down court where Frank Howard dribbled the ball against his man for a good 10 seconds, took a contested mid-range jumper and it went in. Would you consider that a sustainable offense? Or something you'd be happy with on a consistent basis?

Buffalo's offense moved the ball and, for the most part, got good shots. Syracuse's offense was and has been stagnant. Did a number of missed dunks, layups and free throws hurt? Absolutely. Is that on the coaches? No. But what is on the coaches is the way we play and how the team executes.

Half the players don't even look like they're interested in setting a screen or helping a teammate. They just want the ball in their hands. And that is coaching. At minimum, it is recruiting, which is also coaching.

Don’t even bother trying to use logic and/or trusting what the eyes are telling you.
 
The majority of this board thinks the issues with this program run deeper than one game.

But if we want to take a look at things at the micro level, how many open looks did Buffalo get throughout the second half? Memory is fuzzy but I can remember a lot, and at minimum a lot more than Syracuse got.

I would also like to know how many passes Buffalo had on average each possession it had, and compare that to Syracuse. I would be willing to wager a lot of money that Syracuse's average possession had less passes than Buffalo's average possession. Which is why everyone is confounded with the offense that we run.

In fact, I remember one trip down court where Frank Howard dribbled the ball against his man for a good 10 seconds, took a contested mid-range jumper and it went in. Would you consider that a sustainable offense? Or something you'd be happy with on a consistent basis?

Buffalo's offense moved the ball and, for the most part, got good shots. Syracuse's offense was and has been stagnant. Did a number of missed dunks, layups and free throws hurt? Absolutely. Is that on the coaches? No. But what is on the coaches is the way we play and how the team executes.

Half the players don't even look like they're interested in setting a screen or helping a teammate. They just want the ball in their hands. And that is coaching. At minimum, it is recruiting, which is also coaching.

yet our stagnant offense shot better than their ball moving good shots offense. how does that happen?
 

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