The Jim Boeheim Show - before BC II

[Brooky03]

I'm picturing the Dome in the first game of a new coach who came from outside the program. We come out pressing and then fall back into a man-for-man as the crowd roars.

And then give up 12 3’s on 50% shooting and everybody goes all shocked Pikachu face because it never dawned on them that teams hit 3s against m2m, too.

 

[DilemaCuse]

I think the type of player JB recruits also plays a factor in playing zone vs man. This team is all finesse. There’s not a physical player on this team. Really good man to man teams are more physical by nature. JB doesn’t recruit big, strong, physical players. You can probably count them on two hands the past 47 years.

And thats a problem. Thats what you get for starting Chris Bell who weighs all of 170 lbs soaking wet and has the ball ripped from him like he got his chain ripped off his neck by Deebo in Friday. Strength can be an asset in protecting the ball, scoring through contact, rebounding, etc.

 

[Fly Rodder]

KenPom: The success of playing zone vs. man-to-man defense

As more players at every position have become proficient at shooting the 3-pointer, the zone has become less effective.

theathletic.com

Wow, never saw this. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks for posting the link.

While the zone doesn’t reduce foul rates, it can reduce possessions, which in turn can reduce total fouls. So if you’re a particularly bad team that would like to shorten the game, or you’d just like to shorten your bench, playing a zone could be for you. That’s as enthusiastic as I can get about recommending a zone defense.

Check and check. The biggest concern for me is running a slow offense combined with a zone. Reducing your own overall offensive possessions then trying to score more points with an inefficient slow offense is not working out. Get back to fast breaks and methodical offensive sets that work to get open shots seems the best way to maximize your points in fewer offensive possessions. JAB runs a lazy offense that relies on simple screens to free up sub-NBA athletes to create their own shots. If Wes or Flynn want to create offense by cooking a defender, I'm A-OK with that, but there are few who can do that kind of thing on a regular basis (and doesn't end in an offensive foul and/or charge).

 

[Fly Rodder]

By doing this, JB believes that there will be more practice time available to devote to offense and other stuff.

Facts not in evidence, based on the offensive "sets" that get run for a glorified pick-up offense. And what other stuff?

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

Wow, really??

he’s started all year when he was clearly not the best option.

I'm not saying because of the playing situation, it seems he was clearly given a token starting promise. I mean the way Boeheim talked about him in the media, especially after the last game. I'm all about motivating a kid but his last comments should have been in private to Bell, not in public.

 

[Cuse181]

And then give up 12 3’s on 50% shooting and everybody goes all shocked Pikachu face because it never dawned on them that teams hit 3s against m2m, too.

I don’t blame people for that as much, a lot of people here watch Syracuse games FAR more critically (and often) than other teams. They see a team shoot 50% on 30 attempts in a Tennessee Texas game (not real stats) and it gets chalked up to a good shooting night. But Texas isn’t much better at 3pt FG% def than Syracuse (edit, % wise it’s not different, rank wise it’s about 70 spots, whoops)

That’s not really a good comparison considering the schedule discrepancies but I think the broader point is everything seems more pronounced with Syracuse because we follow it day in and day out (duh)

 

[Nicknack]

Remember when people used to say that the Cuse's 2-3 was unique and formidable because Jim recruited players for it? Length and more length! Also, remember when commentators would say that opposing teams can't replicate the length of the zone in practice so playing against it was difficult?

How I miss the old days.

 

[Brooky03]

I don’t blame people for that as much, a lot of people here watch Syracuse games FAR more critically (and often) than other teams. They see a team shoot 50% on 30 attempts in a Tennessee Texas game (not real stats) and it gets chalked up to a good shooting night. But Texas isn’t much better at 3pt FG% def than Syracuse.

That’s not really a good comparison considering the schedule discrepancies but I think the broader point is everything seems more pronounced with Syracuse because we follow it day in and day out (duh)

I took a look at the stats now vs. 2010 and 2014 and was surprised to learn teams aren’t really shooting more threes, putting more shooters on the floor, nor shooting at higher percentages than they did ‘back then’. At least, not appreciably.

I’m skeptical that there has been as big an evolution in the game as some suspect. I’ll bang this drum forever that the zone still works when the personnel is right. That said, if we can’t get the right personnel, it obviously doesn’t hurt to switch things up.

I’d personally rather see us press much more.

 

[MikeSU02]

“Chris is very lackadaisical. He’s not a player coaches like. He’s a good shooter but I don’t see the effort. When he guess the ball and hands it to the other team, that’s inexcusable. You don’t survive that”

Yikesssssss

"Yet he starts for me, a HoF coach, that has total control over the program, which is kind of weird, right? But I'll just tear the kid's confidence down and using sweeping statements to knock him off the pedestal I gave him."

Of course JB didn't say what I quoted, but the lack of awareness of his own role in all of this is to a level maybe unseen before in the history of this game.

Literally.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Facts not in evidence, based on the offensive "sets" that get run for a glorified pick-up offense. And what other stuff?

Free throw shooting. Clearly.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yes I am sure JB is concerned about the educational process of our student journalists. That is why he is condescending and arrogant towards them.

This is a hilarious post, made even funnier by noticing your handle.

 

[DilemaCuse]

"Yet he starts for me, a HoF coach, that has total control over the program, which is kind of weird, right? But I'll just tear the kid's confidence down and using sweeping statements to knock him off the pedestal I gave him."

Of course JB didn't say what I quoted, but the lack of awareness of his own role in all of this is to a level maybe unseen before in the history of this game.

Literally.

Right, like if the kid is on that short of a leash, why even start him. 14 seconds? On one hand Chris needs to be ready to play, on the other hand thats the quickest hook ive ever seen.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

By [not playing man] JB believes that there will be more practice time available to devote to offense and other stuff.

If this is the offense we see thanks to JB saving practice time by not playing m2m, I mean...

 

[Bayside44]

I took a look at the stats now vs. 2010 and 2014 and was surprised to learn teams aren’t really shooting more threes, putting more shooters on the floor, nor shooting at higher percentages than they did ‘back then’. At least, not appreciably.

I’m skeptical that there has been as big an evolution in the game as some suspect. I’ll bang this drum forever that the zone still works when the personnel is right. That said, if we can’t get the right personnel, it obviously doesn’t hurt to switch things up.

I’d personally rather see us press much more.

The zone stuff to me is overrated. Half the teams lose on gameday playing man.

Considering it's supposed to make guys work hard for open look I agree tom extra ball pressure at the start of the clock could aid it.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

SWC75 if you ever set up a Patreon or anything for doing this reports, I would happily subscribe and give you a little extra retirement cash to enjoy.

 

[007]

If this is the offense we see thanks to JB saving practice time by not playing m2m, I mean...

Yeah, that is a different debate. The converse is, imagine what the offense would look like if he "had" to devote all that pratice time to being good at man.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I took a look at the stats now vs. 2010 and 2014 and was surprised to learn teams aren’t really shooting more threes, putting more shooters on the floor, nor shooting at higher percentages than they did ‘back then’. At least, not appreciably.

I’m skeptical that there has been as big an evolution in the game as some suspect. I’ll bang this drum forever that the zone still works when the personnel is right. That said, if we can’t get the right personnel, it obviously doesn’t hurt to switch things up.

I’d personally rather see us press much more.

Teams are shooting 28 3's per game against us now. We are giving up 33% We give up 61 total shots per game.

2010 it was 24 per game. We gave up 30% Teams averaged 61 shots per game against us.

2001 we gave up 19 attempts per game on 32% shooting on 56 total shot attempts

96 when we first started playing zone full time it was 19 attempts on 61 total shots.

There's some peaks and valleys, but the long term trendline shows us giving up more three point attempts. 9 more 3's attempted over 25 years is quite a bit considering the line has been moved back at least 2 times. It's also lead to worse rebounding for us.

 

[UpstateSM]

Bell’s mom is very good looking

 

[SWC75]

SWC75 if you ever set up a Patreon or anything for doing this reports, I would happily subscribe and give you a little extra retirement cash to enjoy.

I'm good, although the breaks just went on my 16 year old car so it might finally be time to get a new one. Cars last longer than computers.

 

[two3zone]

This conversation is leading to some interesting ads.

View attachment 224745

 

[Orangezoo]

Teams are shooting 28 3's per game against us now. We are giving up 33% We give up 61 total shots per game.

2010 it was 24 per game. We gave up 30% Teams averaged 61 shots per game against us.

2001 we gave up 19 attempts per game on 32% shooting on 56 total shot attempts

96 when we first started playing zone full time it was 19 attempts on 61 total shots.

There's some peaks and valleys, but the long term trendline shows us giving up more three point attempts. There's some peaks and valleys in there, but 9 more 3's attempted over 25 years is quite a bit considering the line has been moved back at least 2 times. It's also lead to worse rebounding for us.

I broke this down in a thread a month or so ago into the volume of 3s over the last 20 years. The number of attempts per game and makes per game has jumped drastically over the past decade. The game is much more 3pt reliant. I'll have to find it but it's night and day. Thus it's not only vs the zone as you noted but a massive shift in the game as well.

In that data it was clear that even the teams less 3pt reliant were taking significantly more 3s every year paired with the top.

It would be interesting if there was good aggregate data at the AAU level as I presume that would reflect the same. All thus pointing to the ability to shoot from the outside being more common and thus a threat in every game you play- resulting in a heavy reduction in effectiveness of playing zone for a whole game regardless of personnel.

The one wild card I think would be if the murmurs of a 24 second clock turned to reality at the college level. I would expect that could provide the zone a boost for a couple years... but still ultimately with rule changes closer to the NBA, that boost would fade.

Mid range jumper data would be useful to Analyze as well as we have seen several teams hurt the zone this year it has expanded to get to shooters.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Bell’s mom is very good looking

Not ugly. That is correct.

 

[SWC75]

I broke this down in a thread a month or so ago into the volume of 3s over the last 20 years. The number of attempts per game and makes per game has jumped drastically over the past decade. The game is much more 3pt reliant. I'll have to find it but it's night and day. Thus it's not only vs the zone as you noted but a massive shift in the game as well.

In that data it was clear that even the teams less 3pt reliant were taking significantly more 3s every year paired with the top.

It would be interesting if there was good aggregate data at the AAU level as I presume that would reflect the same. All thus pointing to the ability to shoot from the outside being more common and thus a threat in every game you play- resulting in a heavy reduction in effectiveness of playing zone for a whole game regardless of personnel.

The one wild card I think would be if the murmurs of a 24 second clock turned to reality at the college level. I would expect that could provide the zone a boost for a couple years... but still ultimately with rule changes closer to the NBA, that boost would fade.

Mid range jumper data would be useful to Analyze as well as we have seen several teams hurt the zone this year it has expanded to get to shooters.

I've always thought that all levels of competitive basketball from high school on up should be playing the same game: 10 foot baskets, 20 foot three pointers, 30 second shot clock, 40 minute games - whatever, make it the same so we can see who is geared to perform on the next level.

 

[Orangezoo]

I've always thought that all levels of competitive basketball from high school on up should be playing the same game: 10 foot baskets, 20 foot three pointers, 30 second shot clock, 40 minute games - whatever, make it the same so we can see who is geared to perform on the next level.

Completely agree... also it only stalls development if you have to transition to different rules at every level.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I've always thought that all levels of competitive basketball from high school on up should be playing the same game: 10 foot baskets, 20 foot three pointers, 30 second shot clock, 40 minute games - whatever, make it the same so we can see who is geared to perform on the next level.

I’m in favor of the international rules, but the USA going to USA.