The Miami/Duke game and Syracuse's flaw

[armory]

That Miami-Duke game highlighted a particular gripe I've had with this team and many of JB's recent squads; the dreaded "playing down to the competition" syndrome.

On Monday Cincinnati went ice cold for a really long stretch of the first half, and rather than pounding them down low with high% shots and demoralizing ball movement (yes, demoralizing, nothing worse than missing shots then having to chase the ball around the court) ... we started playing Cincinnati's game & settled with chucking up 3s. If you had told me before the game that Cincinnati would have only a mere 18 first half points I'd already have begun celebrating another win ... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

There's a small margin of error in college basketball when literally any team can get hot for 5-10 minutes and hand you a loss. When the other team is slumping, letting up, and demoralized... you have to step on their throats. If you want to win an NCAA title this is an essential mentality. Sure these wins coming in the final minutes are awesome, and UL/UC are very good teams you can't expect to blow out ... but as Duke proved, even very good teams can leave the door wide open. It's important to recognize those moments and capitalize, but I'm afraid this team hasn't learned that lesson yet.

 

[longtimefan]

That Miami-Duke game highlighted a particular gripe I've had with this team and many of JB's recent squads; the dreaded "playing down to the competition" syndrome.

On Monday Cincinnati went ice cold for a really long stretch of the first half, and rather than pounding them down low with high% shots and demoralizing ball movement (yes, demoralizing, nothing worse than missing shots then having to chase the ball around the court) ... we started playing Cincinnati's game & settled with chucking up 3s. If you had told me before the game that Cincinnati would have only a mere 18 first half points I'd already have begun celebrating another win ... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

There's a small margin of error in college basketball when literally any team can get hot for 5-10 minutes and hand you a loss. When the other team is slumping, letting up, and demoralized... you have to step on their throats. If you want to win an NCAA title this is an essential mentality. Sure these wins coming in the final minutes are awesome, and UL/UC are very good teams you can't expect to blow out ... but as Duke proved, even very good teams can leave the door wide open. It's important to recognize those moments and capitalize, but I'm afraid this team hasn't learned that lesson yet.

Well, there is no comparison between Cincy's defense and whatever it was that Duke was doing (or not doing) last night.

 

[goodroc]

Yeah we have really been playing down to competition last few years. What is our record over last 100 games ??

 

[cusetown1]

That Miami-Duke game highlighted a particular gripe I've had with this team and many of JB's recent squads; the dreaded "playing down to the competition" syndrome.

On Monday Cincinnati went ice cold for a really long stretch of the first half, and rather than pounding them down low with high% shots and demoralizing ball movement (yes, demoralizing, nothing worse than missing shots then having to chase the ball around the court) ... we started playing Cincinnati's game & settled with chucking up 3s. If you had told me before the game that Cincinnati would have only a mere 18 first half points I'd already have begun celebrating another win ... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

There's a small margin of error in college basketball when literally any team can get hot for 5-10 minutes and hand you a loss. When the other team is slumping, letting up, and demoralized... you have to step on their throats. If you want to win an NCAA title this is an essential mentality. Sure these wins coming in the final minutes are awesome, and UL/UC are very good teams you can't expect to blow out ... but as Duke proved, even very good teams can leave the door wide open. It's important to recognize those moments and capitalize, but I'm afraid this team hasn't learned that lesson yet.

First world problems

 

[Charlie]

That Miami-Duke game highlighted a particular gripe I've had with this team and many of JB's recent squads; the dreaded "playing down to the competition" syndrome.

On Monday Cincinnati went ice cold for a really long stretch of the first half, and rather than pounding them down low with high% shots and demoralizing ball movement (yes, demoralizing, nothing worse than missing shots then having to chase the ball around the court) ... we started playing Cincinnati's game & settled with chucking up 3s. If you had told me before the game that Cincinnati would have only a mere 18 first half points I'd already have begun celebrating another win ... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

There's a small margin of error in college basketball when literally any team can get hot for 5-10 minutes and hand you a loss. When the other team is slumping, letting up, and demoralized... you have to step on their throats. If you want to win an NCAA title this is an essential mentality. Sure these wins coming in the final minutes are awesome, and UL/UC are very good teams you can't expect to blow out ... but as Duke proved, even very good teams can leave the door wide open. It's important to recognize those moments and capitalize, but I'm afraid this team hasn't learned that lesson yet.

I feel like SU was in a lull following the Louisville game, but I am not sure we have the components to "pound them down low" or anyone down low. I'd like to see Rak get more touches in the post, but I am guessing that JB has seen enough of it in practice to know that Rak has a long way to go.

As for ball movement - I actually think SU does a decent job of it. I think we were spoiled by the Rautins/AO/Wes team as everyone on that team seemed able to pass and score.

Personally I think we need to figure out how to get out in transition more than anything. It seems we aren't getting as many live ball turnovers. It also feels like everyone is trying to run the ND burn offense against us and keep tempo and possessions down.

 

[dasher]

That Miami-Duke game highlighted a particular gripe I've had with this team and many of JB's recent squads; the dreaded "playing down to the competition" syndrome.

On Monday Cincinnati went ice cold for a really long stretch of the first half, and rather than pounding them down low with high% shots and demoralizing ball movement (yes, demoralizing, nothing worse than missing shots then having to chase the ball around the court) ... we started playing Cincinnati's game & settled with chucking up 3s. If you had told me before the game that Cincinnati would have only a mere 18 first half points I'd already have begun celebrating another win ... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

There's a small margin of error in college basketball when literally any team can get hot for 5-10 minutes and hand you a loss. When the other team is slumping, letting up, and demoralized... you have to step on their throats. If you want to win an NCAA title this is an essential mentality. Sure these wins coming in the final minutes are awesome, and UL/UC are very good teams you can't expect to blow out ... but as Duke proved, even very good teams can leave the door wide open. It's important to recognize those moments and capitalize, but I'm afraid this team hasn't learned that lesson yet.

yes. that is what we should do. Run plays to get baye open down low. Or rak.

 

[OrangeTown]

Yeah we have really been playing down to competition last few years. What is our record over last 100 games ??

In his defense, you can play down to the level of your competition and still win most games. It's not really about wins/losses.

However, Duke last night did not play down to the level of their competition. They played much worse than that. More like down to the level of UConn or Rutgers I'd say. Perhaps even G'Town.

 

[dollarbill44]

I'm not sure what the Duke-Miami game last night has to do at all with how SU is playing vs it's opponents. Also, how can anyone complain about beating #1 ranked U0fL by only 2 points on their home court. That's a fine example of SU playing "down" to the competition.

 

[armory]

I think our drop-off in transition offense is a direct consequence of our improved rebounding. The guards are doing a lot more rebounding than recent years. Scoop and Dion loved their cherries.

What this has to do with Miami-Duke is that Duke let down and went cold, and Miami didn't let off the gas. They sealed that win early in the 2nd half. Kind of what I said in the OP.

I don't understand why some choose to ignore that first half, the Providence game, the USF game, the 1st Nova game. You don't have to lose before recognizing weaknesses.

 

[orangecuse]

Well, there is no comparison between Cincy's defense and whatever it was that Duke was doing (or not doing) last night.

JB should've contacted his good friend K at halftime and pursuaded him to go zone the entire 2nd half. At least then Miami wouldn't have gotten layup after layup...after layup...

 

[Marsh01]

In his defense, you can play down to the level of your competition and still win most games. It's not really about wins/losses.

However, Duke last night did not play down to the level of their competition. They played much worse than that. More like down to the level of UConn or Rutgers I'd say. Perhaps even G'Town.

I wouldnt say Duke played down to their competition last night. Miami is a ranked team and is in first place in the ACC. They just couldnt make a shot to save their lives and it snowballed into a clinic for Miami. Miami is a damn good team. Very athletic and they play good defense and rebound well. With their big guy Johnson back that team will stay in the top 2-3 of the ACC all season. He's a beast.

 

[armory]

The point was that Miami didn't play down to Duke's slump.

 

[AluminNV]

Playing down to competition is part of CBB. I got no clue why it happens so much and why mens teams can't be like womens teams and take bad teams seriously.

IWomens teams can take inferior opponents seriously and put the knife to the throat. Womens BB is usually awful to watch since the better team ends up blowing their opponent out. Games between marquee teams are rarely close since the better and more deserving team will get a lead and then push the lead out to 20-30 instead of taking the foot off the pedal once they are up 15 or so.

Mens hoop just isn't like that the minute a team has a big lead they always let up and let the opponent claw back. Blowouts only occur when its 2 decent teams and the overrated one is being taken seriously. For example that Florida Mizzou game this weekend Florida pounded them by 40 but if they were playing a garbage SEC team like Mississippi St they probably only win by 10. BUt since it was Mizzou it was worth their time to dominate.

 

[armory]

Womens BB is usually awful to watch since the better team ends up blowing their opponent out.

Filling out a women's NCAA tourney bracket is the most boring experience in all of sports. Whoever picks the fewest upsets wins.

 

[Knicks411]

Isn't that just more a function of the fact that the very best women's teams are, for whatever reason, just that much better than the competition?

 

[Gabjon]

It proves we miss James Southerland badly. You cannot pound a team down low when they are packing it in on you. Its like trying to running the football with 9 in the box its not going to happen. We are winning with defense, which means we won't be blowing good teams out and we will have periods of low/no scoring. We will be able to run more verse Nova because of their style of play but they will try to get us in foul trouble. Nova draws more fouls than any team in the league.

 

[LAOrange]

The point was that Miami didn't play down to Duke's slump.

I don't think Duke was slumping. I think they need Kelly that much. We would play like Duke (at least for a game or two) if we lose MCW.
As to playing down to the competition. Isn't that what we teach? "Take what the defense gives you." "Let the game come to you." "Go with the flow." ad infinitum
Lastly, Cincinnati would have killed Duke. Their defense was extraordinary. They played up to their competition. If they could've gotten the ball inside, they would have won.

 

[armory]

Dunno, 4-23 from 3 for a team that shoots it over 42% is pretty slumpy

 

[kuethstheman]

For SU, I don't think it's necessarily about playing down to the competition, it has to do with having a really mediocre half-court game, even when JS is on the floor. Pounding it inside would be a nice thing to do but they don't do it ever, nut just when they're playing a cold Cinci team.

What was different about the Cinci game was giving up too many offensive rebounds. If not for that we win comfortably. Maybe that was playing down to Cinci's level. I don't know what that was all about.

 

[LAOrange]

Kelly is a big man that shoots threes. He does for them what Southerland does for us. He spaces the floor. Cook and Curry can shoot but without Kelly the defense can play up on them. You've seen what losing Southerland has done to our offensive production. We were an 80 plus team and now we're lucky to get 70.

 

[Room 914]

Duke didn't play down to their competition. Without Kelly, Miami is as good or maybe a tad worse then Duke.

But I like your point.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Playing down to competition is part of CBB. I got no clue why it happens so much and why mens teams can't be like womens teams and take bad teams seriously.

IWomens teams can take inferior opponents seriously and put the knife to the throat. Womens BB is usually awful to watch since the better team ends up blowing their opponent out. Games between marquee teams are rarely close since the better and more deserving team will get a lead and then push the lead out to 20-30 instead of taking the foot off the pedal once they are up 15 or so.

Mens hoop just isn't like that the minute a team has a big lead they always let up and let the opponent claw back. Blowouts only occur when its 2 decent teams and the overrated one is being taken seriously. For example that Florida Mizzou game this weekend Florida pounded them by 40 but if they were playing a garbage SEC team like Mississippi St they probably only win by 10. BUt since it was Mizzou it was worth their time to dominate.

I have a different explanation. The talent gap between men's teams is much less than the talent gap among women's teams. There are not enough good women players to go around.

 

[All4SU]

Playing down to competition is part of CBB. I got no clue why it happens so much and why mens teams can't be like womens teams and take bad teams seriously.

There is a much greater disparity of talent between the top women's Bball teams and the lesser teams than in men's basketball.

 

[MCC]

... if you then told me the game would be tied less than a minute into the 2nd half I'd spit out my PBR in disbelief.

I just spit out my Trappiste Rochefort 8 in disbelief that you'd drink PBR. And I'm entirely sure you're entirely sure that I have a spare flagon on hand to catch it so none is lost; it's that good.

PBR... gah, make it go away... [does Sideshow Bob rake-hating grumble]

 

[armory]

I just spit out my Trappiste Rochefort 8 in disbelief that you'd drink PBR.

Uh oh .........