The physicality has changed the game

[cliftonparksufan]

I think the key here is the coach's orientation towards physicality.


Some coaches want their teams as physical as possible ALWAYS towing the line between foul and no foul. As much as possible. I hated when SU would play these kinds of teams: Jamie Dixon at Pitt, Georgetown, Houston etc...

thing is, these teams are so physical all the time that they get away with sooo much. the refs adjust to them and go with it, for the most part. so it becomes a huge advantage for those teams a lot of the time. and it is obvious that their coaches coach them on every little detail when it comes to getting away with as much as possible (hence the disdain)

JB often coached his players to avoid contact at all times. Hold your hands straight in the air dont even go for the block etc...so often times, they get called for ticky tack fouls because the refs adjust to the norm the team sets. and also the team gets out physicaled a lot because of how they orient towards contact and physical play...from the top down.

I hope the defense becomes more physical with a constant handchekcing style a lot of the teams that are successful seem to use.

You watch some of these tournament games where the refs let the physicality play out and then you think about all the ticky-tack fouls called on Jesse. I think you can definitely blame the zone for those, as it makes those fouls stand out so much more.

 

[charleston]

Yeah, we haven't consistently had success defending the three since 2018, which is when the NBA's increasing reliance on threes began filtering through to the college game. It's very difficult to win at the high-major level without having at least three legit 3PT threats on the floor at any given time, preferably four.

In the Boeheim "old" days he would play man most of the game and switch to zone late in the game if he had the lead to slow the other team down...go back and look at the '87 championship film and other games in that era.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But when we had awesome teams we were regularly in the top ten in defensive efficiency against the 3. KenPom wrote articles about it. 2010-2013 we were incredible at it, as well as just being great overall defensively.

I want Red to play man as well but I think there is too much conversation on type of defense rather than the players playing it. The zone’s effectiveness dropped alongside our overall talent level and size over the past 10 years and I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

We also gave up a shtload of offensive rebounds then, but we were so good at getting steals and blocks it didn't matter. We never will be a good rebounding team playing zone no matter what the personnel or talent level is.

 

[Newhouser]

I think in man, the refs see the defensive players constantly hand-checking and poking guys in the back. They are not going to call fouls every 5 seconds on that though it is illegal. When playing zone, you are not guarding a guy and so when the defensive guy rushes the offensive guy and makes contact, not unlike the guys playing man, it seems out of place in contrast and so they call fouls.

I have no issue with guys being physical. The problem to me is that refs allow hand-checking and poking. Guys are getting mugged and it is called "physical defense." Used to be your coach would tell you to play defense with your feet. Now you can hand-check with impunity. It's lazy defense to me and takes a lot away from the game.

With that said, if the refs are not going to call fouls, play man, hand-check, poke and shove people around.

While I am at it, whatever happened to traveling or the 3 second call? They usually call one or two travels per game just for fun and I can't recall the last 3 second call I saw.

The hand checking and impeding movement is getting back to the out of control days. The skill level is not high enough for the college player to play thru that kind of defense.

Also the Vols yesterday basically said we are going to steamroll 3 or 4 guys early and take those fouls but let Duke and the stripes know we are going to be physical. It worked.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

The zone can be great when we have elite athletes playing it, especially big guards at the top of the zone. There’s a big correlation between our recruiting dropping off and the effectiveness of the zone, in addition to teams taking more 3’s.

But is it the chicken or the egg? Could we not get elite athletes because they didn’t want to come to SU and play the zone? Or did we start losing elite athletes through a general recruiting drop off and then the zone became less effective?

FWIW, I was watching the Kansas game and they were playing some 2-3. I don’t think Red kills it entirely, but I’m hoping he goes to an intense man defense with the ability to switch to the zone as a change of pace.

 

[CardiacCuse]

You watch some of these tournament games where the refs let the physicality play out and then you think about all the ticky-tack fouls called on Jesse. I think you can definitely blame the zone for those, as it makes those fouls stand out so much more.

The ACC reffing that I have seen has been poor (and seemingly biased)...there's little consistency from game to game and within games. The blueblood schools seem to have an advantage, as well...(which they dont get as much in the tourney...so bye bye)

if you think of what Jesse has learned as a player in his 4 years from the NCAA refs...it is hard to imagine anything constructive. For almost all of his career they fouled him out quickly and ruthlessly...with some slight fouls (not fouling but getting called) and some obvious errors on his part (trying not to foul but clearly doing so)...

hes done better not fouling when he doesnt want to...but it got to the point where he became a contortionist to avoid contact so he could stay in the games...but has he learned to deal with physical play? nope. how could he? he has been avoiding it his whole career (for good reason)...

 

[M2MPrinciples]

In the Boeheim "old" days he would play man most of the game and switch to zone late in the game if he had the lead to slow the other team down...go back and look at the '87 championship film and other games in that era.

I don't understand what your point has to do with mine.

 

[rrlbees]

 

[Scotch]

We also gave up a shtload of offensive rebounds then, but we were so good at getting steals and blocks it didn't matter. We never will be a good rebounding team playing zone no matter what the personnel or talent level is.

I agree with this. We were regularly trapping and turning teams over in the half court. We don’t do that anymore.

 

[Niastri]

The hand checking and impeding movement is getting back to the out of control days. The skill level is not high enough for the college player to play thru that kind of defense.

Also the Vols yesterday basically said we are going to steamroll 3 or 4 guys early and take those fouls but let Duke and the stripes know we are going to be physical. It worked.

We need to let an offensive tackle walk-on for us. Have him set a couple hard screens in the perimeter in the first couple minutes of the game and then ride the pine with two fouls the rest of the way. It would set a tone.

 

[AckermanAve]

I hope Red can instill a tougher attitude with the team going forward. I think there’s a lot of room for improvement in playing with a tougher, grittier mentality especially on defense. The past few years some players have been soft as Charmin. There’s no reason teams we’re much more athletic than should be putting up 80+ ppg.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

I hope Red can instill a tougher attitude with the team going forward. I think there’s a lot of room for improvement in playing with a tougher, grittier mentality especially on defense. The past few years some players have been soft as Charmin. There’s no reason teams we’re much more athletic than should be putting up 80+ ppg.

That’s a central problem with the zone. It’s all reactive, not dictating anything. I don’t know if the defensive ceiling of this team is all that high playing M2M but we all saw how bad the zone was.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I know I'm probably going to regret this but I'll try...

You just posted that today's game is much more physical.

You then post that the zone has no place in today's game.

Ergo, the physicality of today's game has made the zone obsolete.

I don't understand that logic so please explain it to me.

I think the issue is that teams who play man get away with a lot more physical contact playing defense than you do playing zone. It's an imbalance that favors man.

 

[IthacaMatt]

That’s a central problem with the zone. It’s all reactive, not dictating anything. I don’t know if the defensive ceiling of this team is all that high playing M2M but we all saw how bad the zone was.

No, you can trap and do other things to be proactive in the zone.
With this team, it's about "want to".

 

[grepal]

The old Big East was rough and tumble, but today's game with bigger/better athletes
is a war. Even the IVY has a physical team on the floor. As much as the zone had it's impact, it
just doesn't fit, other than being a change of pace for a few trips up and down the floor.

It'll be interesting to see how Autry will build his roster to fit his style.

Ewing, Mutumbo, Wingate, Coleman, Owen's Ellis, Seikaly, 6 fouls a game. Rough and Tumble was a nice way to put it. I miss those games the most

 

[HOFCeluck]

No, you can trap and do other things to be proactive in the zone.
With this team, it's about "want to".

Yeah, amongst my issues with all zone all the time I don't think "its reactive" is very high up there.

Of course the big problem with trapping and forcing issues is that WE STOPPED DOING THOSE THINGS.