The Syracuse Center Graveyard

[orange2win]

I don't get the point either. It's not like we had a David Robinson or Shaq, and blew it. If you look at the list the vast majority aren't sniffing the NBA even if our coaching staff was Wooden, Knight, Smith, etc. On other threads I've argued we've been able to develop centers over the years, and still stand by that belief. Lots of those guys were very raw coming into college, and graduated as a top college players.

JB felt he had to pick either TT or Coleman. Injuries have been a factor but mask the truth. When JB has two options for one spot, he eventually picks one and sits the other.

It has happened before many times. Right at the very beginning. JB recruited two great centers, preferred the first and sat the second - for the 3 years. When the first graduated, the second got to play his senior year. JB never figured how to use them both together.

Interesting quip. The two biggest SU stars by far in the NBA have been Dave Bing and Carmelo Anthony. So which do you think has played the most games in the NBA? Answer - neither. That honor still belongs to the above second center. Yep, the one who sat for 3 years.

 

[Townie72]

Thanks, Orange2win, for coming up with reason #100 that Boeheim has been and is an under-performing coach.

One wonders if some of our fans sit at home and think, "How is it that this program I spend so much time thinking about has failed me? I think I'll start a thread and allow myself and others to vent. That is, of course, my right as a fan."

These are the people, I think, that K's message about "I hope you realize what you have" was aimed.

 

[l'orange]

Darryl Watkins played a few games in the NBA and netted himself nearly 1/2 million bucks.

 

[MSOrange]

This thread started off as a disaster with the very first post picking and choosing who to mention to fit an agenda. Like oli44 mentioned above, you can certainly make the case we haven't developed some big men as well as could be expected, but let's tell the full story.

 

[orangefog]

This thread started off as a disaster with the very first post picking and choosing who to mention to fit an agenda. Like oli44 mentioned above, you can certainly make the case we haven't developed some big men as well as could be expected, but let's tell the full story.

I am not sure how old the original poster is, but this is how people seem to think now. Figure out what you want to believe, then cherry pick the "facts" or manufacture some facts to support that thought. And finally, double down on the original opinion that you have passed off as fact and disregard any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Townie72]

This thread started off as a disaster with the very first post picking and choosing who to mention to fit an agenda. Like oli44 mentioned above, you can certainly make the case we haven't developed some big men as well as could be expected, but let's tell the full story.

Big men develop slowly and sometimes not at all.

 

[Fat tire 13]

JB felt he had to pick either TT or Coleman. Injuries have been a factor but mask the truth. When JB has two options for one spot, he eventually picks one and sits the other.

It has happened before many times. Right at the very beginning. JB recruited two great centers, preferred the first and sat the second - for the 3 years. When the first graduated, the second got to play his senior year. JB never figured how to use them both together.

Interesting quip. The two biggest SU stars by far in the NBA have been Dave Bing and Carmelo Anthony. So which do you think has played the most games in the NBA? Answer - neither. That honor still belongs to the above second center. Yep, the one who sat for 3 years.

Ok, we are in agreement on some parts, like our inability to play more than 7-8 people. The title of the thread is Syracuse is a graveyard for centers. My interpretation is that would mean we either kill centers' NBA potential, or other programs would do a better job of developing centers. If Danny Schayes is your main example, that is a reach. He played behind Bouie (who interestingly went to play in Europe, so who knows what would have happened). It's easy for a journeyman center to stick around. It is more about avoiding injuries than skill. He averaged under 10 points in his career. Plus guys tended to wait their turn back then. It was common.

Back to the original question, I still stick by the opinion that centers are better off here than most other places. Looking at the list of players throughout the years, I don't see any centers who failed at Cuse who looked like they ever had any chance in the NBA. Another way to look at it is transfers. Off the top of my head, the only transfers I can think of who found success elsewhere were 1/2/3s. Then look at all the guys who improved a bunch in college, and that list is very big. I won't rehash them all right now.

Finally when there are actually 2 good centers, it is the one position where we will go 2 deep (McNeil, Baye). It's the guards that get frustrated and bounce (Tony Bland). Coleman is injured. If he could move, I'm pretty sure he would be in the rotation. God knows we need some defensive depth

 

[OrangeXtreme]

From Boeheim's radio show last night:

Jim took the time to praise his “full seniors” – the guys who had been here their entire career. He said they were both part of a Final Four team and they were “big contributors”. DaJuan Coleman, “was in serious pain but won’t admit it.. He’s the toughest guy in the world.” ... DaJuan would have been a real good player college player but he has the worse knee injuries we’ve seen. You can’t play inside with no knees.”

Since the kid flat out can't play, I don't see where the truth is being masked.

 

[elimunelson]

Not having Bernie Fine around anymore a reason for this downturn in center play?

 

[orangefog]

From Boeheim's radio show last night:

Jim took the time to praise his “full seniors” – the guys who had been here their entire career. He said they were both part of a Final Four team and they were “big contributors”. DaJuan Coleman, “was in serious pain but won’t admit it.. He’s the toughest guy in the world.” ... DaJuan would have been a real good player college player but he has the worse knee injuries we’ve seen. You can’t play inside with no knees.”

Since the kid flat out can't play, I don't see where the truth is being masked.

Hear him out, maybe he knows more than the head coach.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Many developed and many didn't. It's probably just a wash regarding the OP. I think what has been disappointing is that guys like Riley, Chino, Cat Rescuer, Chukwu (pre-injury), could barely get off the bench and were instant liabilities on the court. These guys haven't done anything wherever they transferred to. Chukwu is, well, a big project frankly. Of course these guys weren't Burger Boys but guys like Mahmoud and Mathiang weren't either as they were barely Top 100 recruits.

Rak was awesome and Fab was good. Watkins and Arinze were solid. Those four were certainly solid and good. I'm counting post Craig Forth era. Baye was up and down and very frustrating. He couldn't catch or score but put him on this team and we have a few more wins! Coleman would've been at least Arinze's level if he had no injuries, imo. It isn't as bad as the OP claims. I also do not care what they ended up doing professionally or what their actual position was/is now. They played C at Syracuse.

 

[Orangepace]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

I like the analysis and don't think you're necessarily complaining or trying to say something negative about JB's approach; but for those who do think this is a negative, I'd like to note that JB has taken 3 teams over the last 5 years to the Elite 8 and 2 of those to the Final Four. So who cares if the center is an important to the team?

 

[dasher]

Not having Bernie Fine around anymore a reason for this downturn in center play?

No. It's not

 

[two3zone]

Thanks, Orange2win, for coming up with reason #100 that Boeheim has been and is an under-performing coach.

One wonders if some of our fans sit at home and think, "How is it that this program I spend so much time thinking about has failed me? I think I'll start a thread and allow myself and others to vent. That is, of course, my right as a fan."

These are the people, I think, that K's message about "I hope you realize what you have" was aimed.

Wrong thread to criticize JB "haters", everybody has pretty much come to the defense of him and the centers for the past 40 years.

 

[Townie72]

Wrong thread to criticize JB "haters", everybody has pretty much come to the defense of him and the centers for the past 40 years.

No, just more of the same stuff from my angle.

The difference here is that the usual cast of critics took exception to it.

Amazing. There may be hope yet.

Or maybe they (you) are just keeping their powder dry for the next thread on short bench or M2M as an alternative or bad offense or failure to recruit.

 

[billsin01]

Wrong thread to criticize JB "haters", everybody has pretty much come to the defense of him and the centers for the past 40 years.

I think the frustration stems from the fact that few people seem to be able to grasp that while criticizing and/or critiquing certain aspects of the program is fine, discussing it in the framework of some premise like a 'graveyard for centers' is misguided at best and completely inaccurate at worst. The idea being that we can discuss what has been a relevant trend -- i.e. a difficulty finding centers who excel on both ends of the floor -- but it's really hard to do so w/o acknowledging the subtleties of the discussion and understanding that picking a random date beyond which basically all centers have sucked is not really a great starting point for an intelligent discussion.

 

[orangecuse]

I like the analysis and don't think you're necessarily complaining or trying to say something negative about JB's approach; but for those who do think this is a negative, I'd like to note that JB has taken 3 teams over the last 5 years to the Elite 8 and 2 of those to the Final Four. So who cares if the center is an important to the team?

Your point is well taken. I presume though, that one could at least make the argument that had any one of those aforementioned fine feats had a center (using your word, "important" to the team) possibly another championship may have been had.

 

[two3zone]

No, just more of the same stuff from my angle.

The difference here is that the usual cast of critics took exception to it.

Amazing. There may be hope yet.

Or maybe they (you) are just keeping their powder dry for the next thread on short bench or M2M as an alternative or bad offense or failure to recruit.

If there was any year to complain about man to man, this would be it. Our defense is one of the worst in our history, but I'm not going to eat his lunch for it, but I also wont say and can't prove that our M2M would be better. With the personnel on the roster coming in, this may have been the year to start off with M2M as you had 72, Gillon, White, Battle all coming in to play big minutes who've never played JBs zone before. I think that is a very fair argument, this coming from somebody who thinks that JBs zone is one of the best defenses in college basketball.

 

[Eric15]

Sorry for being that guy, but man this was an interesting way to word this thread given what transpired a couple weeks ago.

 

[billsin01]

Many developed and many didn't. It's probably just a wash regarding the OP. I think what has been disappointing is that guys like Riley, Chino, Cat Rescuer, Chukwu (pre-injury), could barely get off the bench and were instant liabilities on the court. These guys haven't done anything wherever they transferred to. Chukwu is, well, a big project frankly. Of course these guys weren't Burger Boys but guys like Mahmoud and Mathiang weren't either as they were barely Top 100 recruits.

Rak was awesome and Fab was good. Watkins and Arinze were solid. Those four were certainly solid and good. I'm counting post Craig Forth era. Baye was up and down and very frustrating. He couldn't catch or score but put him on this team and we have a few more wins! Coleman would've been at least Arinze's level if he had no injuries, imo. It isn't as bad as the OP claims. I also do not care what they ended up doing professionally or what their actual position was/is now. They played C at Syracuse.

To me the more interesting discussion is why it has seemed so difficult to develop and, perhaps more importantly, take advantage of players who seem to have the potential to provide offense in the low post. In recent memory Jackson, Arinze and Rak were the only guys who were legit threats to score with their back to the basket. Thompson obviously has shown tremendous potential here as well.

But how is it that we've struggled to get guys like Lydon involved consistently and why have we seemingly had a difficult time getting guys with some talent to blossom into decent offensive threats in the post -- guys like Roberson or Watkins, etc.? that to me is a much more interesting discussion.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

It has happened before many times. Right at the very beginning. JB recruited two great centers, preferred the first and sat the second - for the 3 years. When the first graduated, the second got to play his senior year. JB never figured how to use them both together.

Somebody older than me correct me if I'm wrong since I was still a kid, but I thought JB did try to play Schayes and Bouie together...it did not work and that was when Santifer moved into the starting line-up...

Looking at that lineup, pretty easy to see why it didn't work...

Moss was extremely limited offensively. Headd had range but was slow. Orr could step out and drill a 15 footer but with Schayes and Bouie on the floor, the lane is clogged, sag off of Moss, shade or face guard Headd and help on Orr...where does the scoring come from?

On D, the team lacks speed...

 

[OttoMets]

To me the more interesting discussion is why it has seemed so difficult to develop and, perhaps more importantly, take advantage of players who seem to have the potential to provide offense in the low post. In recent memory Jackson, Arinze and Rak were the only guys who were legit threats to score with their back to the basket. Thompson obviously has shown tremendous potential here as well.

But how is it that we've struggled to get guys like Lydon involved consistently and why have we seemingly had a difficult time getting guys with some talent to blossom into decent offensive threats in the post -- guys like Roberson or Watkins, etc.? that to me is a much more interesting discussion.

I don't disagree so strongly with the OP (and I do think the distinction between centers and power forwards is an important part of this - why is Boeheim so quick to fall back on playing his 4 at the 5 after casting his true center to the bench?), but this is a legitimate discussion topic. Over decades, our mediocre centers stay mediocre, our good ones (with a couple exceptions) bloom late and are ignored in the offense, and nobody seems to develop at the same rate as some of their peers at other schools.

 

[newmexicuse]

Graveyard ???? - Look at all of the great names in this thread. I think you would have a very hard time naming more than 5 schools that have had a better roster of centers over the years.

Additionally, graveyard kind of implies that we are taking someone with talent and "burying" that individual in a way where the talent isn't manifested.

The only one of all those names who maybe could have been a bigtime talent and wasn't is DC2, and that is obviously due to injuries and not the system. Everybody else came around sooner or later or just flat out wasn't good enough.

 

[CusefanATL]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

Otis Hill would not be in the 1st group.

 

[CusefanATL]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

Would love to know your thoughts on Otis Hill (mid 90's) Etan Thomas (late 90's early 2000) Daryl Watkins, Arinze Onuaku, Fab Melo, and Rakeem Christmas's professional careers.