The Syracuse Center Graveyard

[Cusefan0307]

How many teams in the ACC and BiG east have had legit good scoring college centers over the past 15 years? Okafor was a one and done. Gorgui Dieng was decent? We had Christmas and Fab. Emeka Okafor at Uconn? Hansbrough was really a PF at UNC. Same with Brice Johnson and Meeks. Thomas Bryant puts up worse numbers than Lydon and a lot of people here are down on Lydon.

Duke has 2 5* bigs on their bench that don't play. Louisvilles bigs can rebound, but they can't score. Collins is a PF in reality at Wake. The best big in the conference is Collins and he's a PF. The best true center in the conference is Lammers.

Not many teams are getting scoring from their bigs in college anymore. It's shifted to a perimeter based game across the board. Another thing that drives me nuts is nobody can throw a post pass anymore. We saw that when Rak was here and now we are seeing it this year when Lydon and Thompson can get position. The best bigs in college are guys like Markkanen. Tj Leaf, and Lydon who all have more of a perimeter based game.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Sorry for being that guy, but man this was an interesting way to word this thread given what transpired a couple weeks ago.

I was debating whether to say the same thing. Not just Fab, though. McNasty.

 

[orange2win]

From Boeheim's radio show last night:

Jim took the time to praise his “full seniors” – the guys who had been here their entire career. He said they were both part of a Final Four team and they were “big contributors”. DaJuan Coleman, “was in serious pain but won’t admit it.. He’s the toughest guy in the world.” ... DaJuan would have been a real good player college player but he has the worse knee injuries we’ve seen. You can’t play inside with no knees.”

Since the kid flat out can't play, I don't see where the truth is being masked.

This may be true. What do I know? But in one of his last games against UConn at MSG, he had 16 RBs and 10 pts. Not bad for a crippled center who saw few set plays.

 

[orange2win]

Thanks, Orange2win, for coming up with reason #100 that Boeheim has been and is an under-performing coach.

One wonders if some of our fans sit at home and think, "How is it that this program I spend so much time thinking about has failed me? I think I'll start a thread and allow myself and others to vent. That is, of course, my right as a fan."

These are the people, I think, that K's message about "I hope you realize what you have" was aimed.

I actually agree with most of your posts. JB's accomplishments at SU have been massive, and I DO realize what we have, but he also has some serious flaws.

 

[Cusefan0307]

This may be true. What do I know? But in one of his last games against UConn at MSG, he had 16 RBs and 10 pts. Not bad for a crippled center who saw few set plays.

This seems like an odd argument to be having when the entire lottery is Point Guards and Small forwards. I think you need to take into account the change in style of play. Big lumbering dudes struggle in the ball ball era.

 

[SBU72]

Here they are: Celuk (98), McNeil (99), Forth (01), Gorman (02), Watkins (03), Brennan-McBride (06), Onuaku (05), Williams (07), Jackson (07), Riley (09), Kieta (10), Coleman (12), Obokoh (13), Chukwu (16).

There are a lot of busts in there.

With this list does the question become is the zone a graveyard for centers or is center under recruited at SU (maybe due to size & length & quickness requirements of the zone). Seems to me that Watkins and DC2 are the only really 2 highly "ranked" centers.

Thanks, Orange2win, for coming up with reason #100 that Boeheim has been and is an under-performing coach.

One wonders if some of our fans sit at home and think, "How is it that this program I spend so much time thinking about has failed me? I think I'll start a thread and allow myself and others to vent. That is, of course, my right as a fan."

These are the people, I think, that K's message about "I hope you realize what you have" was aimed.

About 1 reason he underperforms for every 10 victories. It's amazing that he won 100 games much less 1000.

 

[SBU72]

This may be true. What do I know? But in one of his last games against UConn at MSG, he had 16 RBs and 10 pts. Not bad for a crippled center who saw few set plays.[/QUOTE
If you watched the actual last game he played (Wake) he limped up and down the court. Seeing that it was easy to understand why he wasn't playing even a minute. In 12 mins, he had 0 rbs and 1 pt.

 

[Townie72]

I actually agree with most of your posts. JB's accomplishments at SU have been massive, and I DO realize what we have, but he also has some serious flaws.

Flaws?

Personal Flaws (Like lack of patience with reporters)?
Behavioral Flaws (Like Criticizing players or yelling at them)?
Basketball strategy Flaws (Like short bench or commitment to the zone)?

Or are we talking about areas of chronic weakness in team performance (like foul shooting)?

Recruiting is an imperfect process. SU and most schools don't get everyone they want and even when they get who they want they aren't sure what they are really getting.

There really isn't the latitude of choice that some think. To me, there are few comments dumber than the oft-heard suggestion on here that we need better players. We get the best players we can and it's frequently a crapshoot.

I watched Arinze O. In high school and the SU staff saw something in him few others did.

The SU staff has done a very god job of finding diamonds in the rough and developing them.

 

[SoBeCuse]

How many teams in the ACC and BiG east have had legit good scoring college centers over the past 15 years? Okafor was a one and done. Gorgui Dieng was decent? We had Christmas and Fab. Emeka Okafor at Uconn? Hansbrough was really a PF at UNC. Same with Brice Johnson and Meeks. Thomas Bryant puts up worse numbers than Lydon and a lot of people here are down on Lydon.

Duke has 2 5* bigs on their bench that don't play. Louisvilles bigs can rebound, but they can't score. Collins is a PF in reality at Wake. The best big in the conference is Collins and he's a PF. The best true center in the conference is Lammers.

Not many teams are getting scoring from their bigs in college anymore. It's shifted to a perimeter based game across the board. Another thing that drives me nuts is nobody can throw a post pass anymore. We saw that when Rak was here and now we are seeing it this year when Lydon and Thompson can get position. The best bigs in college are guys like Markkanen. Tj Leaf, and Lydon who all have more of a perimeter based game.

Dieng was very good and doing just fine with MIN. A BIG reason they won the title at UL. I think the point is that UL's bigs of course weren't McD All Americans but they can produce, contribute, and get off the bench. The Chinos, Chukwus, etc., are so raw and uncoordinated. Even Baye to a certain extent. Mahmoud, Spalding, and Mathiang can catch the ball, stay on the floor, do something with it, etc. They absolutely are capable of scoring whereas those other SU guys were not. Sure they aren't going to wow you with low post moves but they are more than serviceable. I'd kill to have just ONE of those guys in the post on this SU team. Lammers is definitely the best true C in the conference and one of the best in the country.

 

[OrangeDW]

Would love to know your thoughts on Otis Hill (mid 90's) Etan Thomas (late 90's early 2000) Daryl Watkins, Arinze Onuaku, Fab Melo, and Rakeem Christmas's professional careers.

LOL. That was completely ridiculous. Back in the day, Syracuse.com troll level stuff. Just flat out dishonest, for no real reason.

 

[Dave85]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

The data is not clear. It's anecdotal at best. Arinze Onuaku was a terrific center. Since Onuaku, Taurean Thompson is the first center we've had with any offensive talent. If you want to do this analysis right you need to apply real analytics taking into account High School ranking, win-loss record at school, ranking, tournament success, and any other data factor that goes into having a successful NBA draft. Shooting percentage might be the single most important statistic for getting into the NBA.

And besides, why is making into the NBA your only measure of success. How come you get to decide what success means. Christmas graduated from college with a 4 year degree in 3 years. That's a pretty success and he was a center. Rick Jackson was BE defensive player of the year.

 

[orangehomer]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

you realize that there are basically no good college centers and that the nba game is moving away from traditional centers right?

 

[billsin01]

I don't disagree so strongly with the OP (and I do think the distinction between centers and power forwards is an important part of this - why is Boeheim so quick to fall back on playing his 4 at the 5 after casting his true center to the bench?), but this is a legitimate discussion topic. Over decades, our mediocre centers stay mediocre, our good ones (with a couple exceptions) bloom late and are ignored in the offense, and nobody seems to develop at the same rate as some of their peers at other schools.

I don't know that JB has been quick to fall back on forwards per se, so long as the center -- whomever it is -- can bring something to the table. Forth and McNeil (McForth, one of my favorite nicknames of all time) both played a ton despite not really having much promise offensively. Baye played a ton in the same role. Watkins was a rotation guy as a soph then played 30 mpg as a jr/sr. Onuaku obviously played as many minutes as he could handle. Fab played token minutes as a frosh but he had serious conditioning issues, Keita played a lot a Jackson played a dynamic role as a center on that team. Fab then played a ton the next year on that 11-12 group. The issue with getting coleman healthy was a huge one and Rak played 20+ mpg soph and junior years before a huge senior year.

So really the only guys since the early 2000s that he hasn't given any minutes to are the guys who wound up transferring and not playing much at other schools (guys like Riley and Chino) and then this year with Chukwu. Right? Am I missing something.

So I'm not really sure he's actively gone away from a true 5 that has been even remotely competant all that often.

Developmentally, I'm with you. It was hard watching Rak offensively for his soph/jr seasons b/c it felt like there was so much more there. Chukwu is a guy they took after a transfer that Provy supposedly was really disappointed to lose and he looked awful despite a redshirt year. Things like that are frustrating but I'm not really sure JB has done all that many of these guys a disservice in terms of PT.

 

[longislandcuse]

The ideal Center is a tall, athletic guy who can block shots, rebound and hit jump shots at a decent clip.

Hoping Sidibe is that guy. He seems like he has/could develop that skill set.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The ideal Center is a tall, athletic guy who can block shots, rebound and hit jump shots at a decent clip.

Hoping Sidibe is that guy. He seems like he has/could develop that skill set.

And catch the ball.