The UConn grovelling has begun

[Guinness]

Call me old fashioned but I want to beat UConn and Rutgers on the field and not by them getting left out of the conference shuffle and becoming irrelevant.

 

[SouthCampusHero]

I think most current ACC members agree that ACCnorth=oldBE is not an equation that sounds all that appealing. No. 16 needs to be outside the box not simply another BE team or the southern schools, GT included, will probably not buy into it.

Totally agree. To think that #16 is either UConn or Rutgers is the type of vision that parallels that of Tranghese and Marinatto. If ND were to join the ACC (and I doubt it ever happens), they provide enough cache such that the ACC commissioner should be thinking bigger than a BE team as #16. I have a feeling about a half dozen schools would be asked to be #16 before either UConn or Rutgers. Those two will always be there. The idea is try try to leverage ND for a program far superior than either of those two. I cant even imagine ND saying "We want UConn/RU to come with us." Based on what? Their historic football rivalries? LOL.

 

[BlazeOrange]

My order of importance:

1. Which team does Notre Dame want to join the conference?
This is probably all that really matters because they are in the drivers seat on joining or not. Nos. 15 (and 16) aren't going to be added until the Irish join a conference or make it perfectly clear that they aren't going to (and since their current denials aren't good enough and I don't know how much more emphatically they could say this, this half of the clause probably cannot be satisfied).

2. Which team helps SU more?
Basically, this comes down to how will we be able to get more New Jersey recruits, since the numbers coming out of Connecticut high schools don't amount to anything. Does having Rutgers in conference give us an "in" to the state like with Florida teams? Or would a weakened Rutgers in a crappy conference cause more players to look our way? What if the ACC passed on RU and they actually pull off admittance into the B1G or B12?

3. Who would I rather play against?
Since neither football team is someone you'd circle the calendar for, UConn wins this one due to the established intense hoops rivalry.

4. Who brings in more money?
Obviously, this is #1 on the list for the ACC, but other than the financial benefits from getting Notre Dame, I really don't care about this. I know you gotta pay the bills and maximize income to build bigger/better/etc., but I was much happier when the TV wheeling and dealing was behind the scenes and the intrigue was about the teams, coaches, and players. RU wins due to the NYC market having more potential than the additional revenue source provided by chick hoops at UConn.

The final tally is one factor for Rutgers, one for UConn, one I'm not sure about, and one left to ND. So let the Irish pick their partner and hope they and the ACC think outside the box and bring in someone even better.

 

[normaliswear]

Totally agree. To think that #16 is either UConn or Rutgers is the type of vision that parallels that of Tranghese and Marinatto. If ND were to join the ACC (and I doubt it ever happens), they provide enough cache such that the ACC commissioner should be thinking bigger than a BE team as #16. I have a feeling about a half dozen schools would be asked to be #16 before either UConn or Rutgers. Those two will always be there. The idea is try try to leverage ND for a program far superior than either of those two. I cant even imagine ND saying "We want UConn/RU to come with us." Based on what? Their historic football rivalries? LOL.

I'd love to do better, but who specifically? We're not pulling out of the Big 12, B1G, SEC, or Pac 12... soooo ND and... BYU? East Carolina? Probably the best two options as far as Academics, athletics, and geography are going to be UConn or RU

 

[ConnHuskBask]

Totally agree. To think that #16 is either UConn or Rutgers is the type of vision that parallels that of Tranghese and Marinatto. If ND were to join the ACC (and I doubt it ever happens), they provide enough cache such that the ACC commissioner should be thinking bigger than a BE team as #16. I have a feeling about a half dozen schools would be asked to be #16 before either UConn or Rutgers. Those two will always be there. The idea is try try to leverage ND for a program far superior than either of those two. I cant even imagine ND saying "We want UConn/RU to come with us." Based on what? Their historic football rivalries? LOL.

Half dozen schools, huh? That's a lot of schools.

 

[BlazeOrange]

Half dozen schools, huh? That's a lot of schools.

OK, I'll try.
Remember that the quote is a half dozen schools who would be asked, not necessarily who would join. I'll limit to those that you could at least make a straight-faced argument to with some basis:
1. Penn State - reportedly unhappy with B1G slights over the years, including western instead of eastern expansion
2. Florida - Get the Big 3 in one conference, SEC west has been dominating lately, not sure of their take on recent expansion but there could be some animosity there for all I know
3. Kentucky - as a hoops-first school, they should be in the best BB conference
4. Vanderbilt - they fit the ACC profile much better than the SEC
5. West Virginia - this is where they wanted to be anyway
6. Louisville? - a reach from the ACC end due to academics/market, but better sports

The top 3 and probably 4 are pipe dreams due to $$, but worth asking (ND plus PSU or UF could be game changers in the contracts though). WV would be awkward, but I wouldn't put it past them to make a quick B12 exit once they experience the negatives of the far away conference. Louisville would obviously join up but if they were preferred by the ACC, they'd already be in more rumors than RU or UConn.

To summarize, I named 6 schools to ask, but failed to identify any likely candidates.

 

[Cuseman78]

OK, I'll try.
Remember that the quote is a half dozen schools who would be asked, not necessarily who would join. I'll limit to those that you could at least make a straight-faced argument to with some basis:
1. Penn State - reportedly unhappy with B1G slights over the years, including western instead of eastern expansion
2. Florida - Get the Big 3 in one conference, SEC west has been dominating lately, not sure of their take on recent expansion but there could be some animosity there for all I know
3. Kentucky - as a hoops-first school, they should be in the best BB conference
4. Vanderbilt - they fit the ACC profile much better than the SEC
5. West Virginia - this is where they wanted to be anyway
6. Louisville? - a reach from the ACC end due to academics/market, but better sports

The top 3 and probably 4 are pipe dreams due to $$, but worth asking (ND plus PSU or UF could be game changers in the contracts though). WV would be awkward, but I wouldn't put it past them to make a quick B12 exit once they experience the negatives of the far away conference. Louisville would obviously join up but if they were preferred by the ACC, they'd already be in more rumors than RU or UConn.

To summarize, I named 6 schools to ask, but failed to identify any likely candidates.

No offense, but your list of 6 is ridiculous. None of the schools on that list are either (a) realistic (Penn State, Florida) or (b) would be asked over Uconn (the remainder).

 

[normaliswear]

OK, I'll try.
Remember that the quote is a half dozen schools who would be asked, not necessarily who would join. I'll limit to those that you could at least make a straight-faced argument to with some basis:
1. Penn State - reportedly unhappy with B1G slights over the years, including western instead of eastern expansion
2. Florida - Get the Big 3 in one conference, SEC west has been dominating lately, not sure of their take on recent expansion but there could be some animosity there for all I know
3. Kentucky - as a hoops-first school, they should be in the best BB conference
4. Vanderbilt - they fit the ACC profile much better than the SEC
5. West Virginia - this is where they wanted to be anyway
6. Louisville? - a reach from the ACC end due to academics/market, but better sports

The top 3 and probably 4 are pipe dreams due to $$, but worth asking (ND plus PSU or UF could be game changers in the contracts though). WV would be awkward, but I wouldn't put it past them to make a quick B12 exit once they experience the negatives of the far away conference. Louisville would obviously join up but if they were preferred by the ACC, they'd already be in more rumors than RU or UConn.

To summarize, I named 6 schools to ask, but failed to identify any likely candidates.

Yeah see thats why ya end up with UConn or RU. Penn State would be perfect and might actually be interested. Except leaving the B1G would cost WAY too much since the B1G has a grant of rights deal. Forget the SEC... who knows, maybe in 30 years the landscape changes and the SEC isn't what they are now, but for now the SEC is giant ATM for those schools, they are going nowhere. WVU... ACC doesn't want them because their Academics are slightly below the level of most BOCES schools. LVille, academics and location rank them below UConn and RU both and they probably fit the Big 12 better for both measurments anyway.

 

[Townie72]

This is, indeed, a very strange argument. Who should be the 16th ACC member along with Notre Dame?

Wow! Is this ever "a bridge too far". Are you guys familiar at all of how odds increase as you stack conditional probabilities?

1. It assumes that ND wants to no longer be an independent or is forced to become an independent. That''s a stretch.

2. It assumes that IF ND wants to join a conference, it would join the ACC and not the B1G. That's another huge stretch since all the real evidence before us is that they would prefer the B1G, including the fact that they actually went through the application process with the B1G a number of years ago, only to decline at the last step in the process.

3. It assumes that if ND wants to join a conference and that conference is the ACC, the ACC will also add another member. And assumption #4 - that that 16th member will be a northeastern school.

I can't ge past #1 and #2. It's highly unlikely that ND is going to join a conference in the next several years. And if they do, it'll probably be the B1G. The school is IN Indiana and ND has a number of traditional rivals in that Conference.

The discussion reminds me of "Who would win in a fight? Superman or Batman?"

 

[normaliswear]

This is, indeed, a very strange argument. Who should be the 16th ACC member along with Notre Dame?

Wow! Is this ever "a bridge too far". Are you guys familiar at all of how odds increase as you stack conditional probabilities?

1. It assumes that ND wants to no longer be an independent or is forced to become an independent. That''s a stretch.

2. It assumes that IF ND wants to join a conference, it would join the ACC and not the B1G. That's another huge stretch since all the real evidence before us is that they would prefer the B1G, including the fact that they actually went through the application process with the B1G a number of years ago, only to decline at the last step in the process.

3. It assumes that if ND wants to join a conference and that conference is the ACC, the ACC will also add another member. And assumption #4 - that that 16th member will be a northeastern school.

I can't ge past #1 and #2. It's highly unlikely that ND is going to join a conference in the next several years. And if they do, it'll probably be the B1G. The school is IN Indiana and ND has a number of traditional rivals in that Conference.

The discussion reminds me of "Who would win in a fight? Superman or Batman?"

Number one is true... chances are ND will remain independant. But its not a guarentee, the new BCS system could force them into a conference. The breakup of the BE could be enough to convince them to join a conference. Niether is likely, but I'd put the odds at about 25%. Your second point I greatly disagree with. If ND DOES join a conference, it will likely be the ACC. Despite their geographic location ND is a national school recruiting-wise and an Eastern school in culture. They fit much better with small private schools like Duke, and Wake, Catholic schools like BC, and Eastern schools like SU and Pitt than they do with the Big 10. As for your 3rd point, if ND asks into the ACC, the ACC wont even let them finish the sentence before saying yes. And well, number 4 of "whom the 4th school would be" is what the rest of the thread is about.

 

[All4SU]

I know this is very BEish and you guys might puke all over yourselves for such a suggestion but I would prefer a navy/Georgetown hybrid membership over uconn or rutgers. Navy for football; G-Town for everything else. Navy stays in the patriot league. It would be a good incentive for ND from the Navy scheduling perspective and it would do even more for ACC basketball. I also know you guys also have a huge rivalry with Gtown. Gtown and their fans though would have to agree to never refer to themselves as GT.

Interesting idea, but...
- No more hybrids
- No more partial members
- No more confusing memberships
Please!

 

[All4SU]

The discussion reminds me of "Who would win in a fight? Superman or Batman?"

Superman...and it's not even close.

 

[sutomcat]

Superman...and it's not even close.

I agree.

My list:

Superman
Ashton Broyld
Spiderman
Incredible Hulk
Ironman
Paul Harris
Batman
Scooby Doo
Shaggy
Fred
Otto
Aquaman

 

[All4SU]

I agree.

My list:

Superman
Ashton Broyld
Spiderman
Incredible Hulk
Ironman
Paul Harris
Batman
Scooby Doo
Shaggy
Fred
Otto
Aquaman

You forgot Mighty Mouse.

 

[Chip]

This is, indeed, a very strange argument. Who should be the 16th ACC member along with Notre Dame?

Wow! Is this ever "a bridge too far". Are you guys familiar at all of how odds increase as you stack conditional probabilities?

1. It assumes that ND wants to no longer be an independent or is forced to become an independent. That''s a stretch.

2. It assumes that IF ND wants to join a conference, it would join the ACC and not the B1G. That's another huge stretch since all the real evidence before us is that they would prefer the B1G, including the fact that they actually went through the application process with the B1G a number of years ago, only to decline at the last step in the process.

3. It assumes that if ND wants to join a conference and that conference is the ACC, the ACC will also add another member. And assumption #4 - that that 16th member will be a northeastern school.

I can't ge past #1 and #2. It's highly unlikely that ND is going to join a conference in the next several years. And if they do, it'll probably be the B1G. The school is IN Indiana and ND has a number of traditional rivals in that Conference.

The discussion reminds me of "Who would win in a fight? Superman or Batman?"

I think most people here (the sane ones anyway) know that #1 is the biggest stretch of all. Really the only card any other schools can play to force their hand is to somehow exclude them from the new playoff system. But even that is a stretch, no matter how many schools might think they'd like to.

IF somehow #1 were to happen, per your #2, it sounds like the better question would be who is #14 for the B1G? NJU? (just want to read your response to that, will be my morning laugh). Kansas? (would they go without KSU?). Iowa State? (B1G is already in Iowa). Who would they go after?

SEC is at 14, ACC is at 14. Maybe 14 is the new 12. Instead of that nice round 16 that people get hung up on. So five 14 team leagues, and somehow RU and UConn stay out of all of them? Works for me.

 

[rrlbees]

I agree.

My list:

Superman
Ashton Broyld
Spiderman
Incredible Hulk
Ironman
Paul Harris
Batman
Scooby Doo
Shaggy
Fred
Otto
Aquaman

You put Scooby Doo ahead of Otto? Better watch your back when you're at the Dome.

 

[Alsacs]

The Big 12 contract I wonder if it includes a provision that will allow for renegotiation if the Big 12 adds teams because Oklahoma and Texas won't want a championship game if they don't have to play another game. Remember with this new 4 team playoff OU and UT will want an easier road to the playoffs. Florida State and Clemson would bring decent football, but going from 17 million to 23 million a year isn't like going from 7 million to 17 million a year. The increased travel would eat into that 6 million a year profit. I just don't believe Clemson and Florida State will go to the Big 12 the SEC? Yes, but the Big 12 no.
I just want nothing to do with Big East teams once we go the ACC. UConn and Rutgers specifically won't be invited to the ACC unless the conference gets gutted meaning losing 4 teams. If I was Swofford I would increase the exit fee for 50 million right now. He would have 75% majority right and it would tell him if everybody was all-in. Then if FSU and Clemson wanted to leave and you would have 12 teams and the money would increase because I heard this contract didn't include a provision for renegotiation even if teams leave or added so while I wouldn't want Clemson or FSU to leave it wouldn't hurt the current contract.

 

[rrlbees]

The Big 12 contract I wonder if it includes a provision that will allow for renegotiation if the Big 12 adds teams because Oklahoma and Texas won't want a championship game if they don't have to play another game. Remember with this new 4 team playoff OU and UT will want an easier road to the playoffs. Florida State and Clemson would bring decent football, but going from 17 million to 23 million a year isn't like going from 7 million to 17 million a year. The increased travel would eat into that 6 million a year profit. I just don't believe Clemson and Florida State will go to the Big 12 the SEC? Yes, but the Big 12 no.
I just want nothing to do with Big East teams once we go the ACC. UConn and Rutgers specifically won't be invited to the ACC unless the conference gets gutted meaning losing 4 teams. If I was Swofford I would increase the exit fee for 50 million right now. He would have 75% majority right and it would tell him if everybody was all-in. Then if FSU and Clemson wanted to leave and you would have 12 teams and the money would increase because I heard this contract didn't include a provision for renegotiation even if teams leave or added so while I wouldn't want Clemson or FSU to leave it wouldn't hurt the current contract.

I wouldn't be able to find it now, but one article indicated that the new contract has built into it escalation values if new teams were to join which is different than re-opening negotiations. If I run across it again, I will link it.

 

[baggerbob]

There is no way ESPN is giving the Big 12 more money to breakup the ACC, if anything they would tell the Big 12 we already renegotiated your contract. It would be a point where if you, add Florida St and Clemson you're stuck where you are.

 

[kingottoiii]

And again, just so I'm clear, I despise Uconn and hope that 10 years from now they are already dead on the vine. Rutgers too in a perfect world.

They are both dead weight. I wish WV were still available as #16. Or that Nova made the splash to D1A. By the time ND is ready to join the ACC, Nova coulda been in the BE for 5 years already.

 

[Alsacs]

There is no way ESPN is giving the Big 12 more money to breakup the ACC, if anything they would tell the Big 12 we already renegotiated your contract. It would be a point where if you, add Florida St and Clemson you're stuck where you are.

Conference Championship game revenue would raise the value without more money, with JerryWorld, and the contract for the game rights and title sponsorship , but would it increase enough to feed 2 more mouths.

 

[Townie72]

I think most people here (the sane ones anyway) know that #1 is the biggest stretch of all. Really the only card any other schools can play to force their hand is to somehow exclude them from the new playoff system. But even that is a stretch, no matter how many schools might think they'd like to.

IF somehow #1 were to happen, per your #2, it sounds like the better question would be who is #14 for the B1G? NJU? (just want to read your response to that, will be my morning laugh). Kansas? (would they go without KSU?). Iowa State? (B1G is already in Iowa). Who would they go after?

SEC is at 14, ACC is at 14. Maybe 14 is the new 12. Instead of that nice round 16 that people get hung up on. So five 14 team leagues, and somehow RU and UConn stay out of all of them? Works for me.

Per your question in para 2:

I believe that Rutgers is fundamentally undesirable as a B1G member (or the ACC) and as time passes in the New CUSA, they'll become even more undesirable.

1 - Rutgers isn't really a State U - Rutgers has never been the State University of NJ in the sense that OSU is the State University of OH or U. of Wisconsin is the State University of WI. It just isn't. You have to understand the history to get this.

2 - Financial Problems - Rutgers athletics are in shaky financial condition as is the NJ State government. (The rule is don't invite in a partner who is on the edge of bankruptcy)

3 - Cultural Fit - Rutgers (pronounced "Rut-giz") is not a cultural fit for the Midwest. No way do midwesterners want to lose control of "their" conference and be absorbed into the East Coast megalopolis..

4 - Their Athletic Reputation - The stink of years of athletic futility sticks to them like the oily water sticks to those clumps of land in the "Meadowlands". When large proportions of the TV sports audience think of Rutgers they think of "lousy athletics"

5 - The Myth of a Rutgers TV Market - Although there are a lot of TV sets in Northern NJ, when they are turned on to college football its almost invariably to whatever the "big game of the week is". If the NJ people don't believe its the biggest or the best they won't watch it. There is no significant "local identity".

6. Watch Who You Sue - Rutgers joined the law suit against the ACC and BC. Universities never sue one another ... but this time they did. Would you want a partner who had shown a willingness to go to court?

 

[Townie72]

Superman...and it's not even close.

Superman would be a big favorite of course ... unless Batman had some Kryptonite or the keys to Lois Lane's chastity belt.

 

[Upstate]

I'm 0/0 between UConn or Rutgers moving to the ACC. It's in SU football's best interest that neither does.

If ND somehow, some way, finally feels enough pressure to join a conference, and the ACC is their conference of choice, I'd prefer the 15 team, 3 division format that some here have proposed. I don't know how anyone paying attention to the past 7-10 years of SU football could think that giving UConn or Rutgers a spot in a major conference is in any way a good thing for SU.

Well put. I wish all Northeastern football schools fail, opening the road for SU to continue its greatness.

 

[JacketFan]

15 doesn't work unless we go back to 8 conference games, which I doubt would make the TV people happy.