Third Best Team Ever?

[billsin01]

The defense is getting better every game. TC's blazing hot shooting may continue to last. ...I think we all agree Cooney's blazing hot shooting will have to be present during big games. And we need slightly better production from our BIGs.

These are the three factors that, to me, give me fairly significant pause in putting this team among those we've seen the past few decades or so (along with the fact that the best teams of the past 30 years or so have been truly elite):

1) Cooney's shot has a lot of legs in it. I love the guy but it's hard for me to think he may have some struggles as the season continues simply b/c there will be some fatigue. It's not that I don't think he'll continue to have an excellent season but shooting at this rate is something we haven't seen before.

2) The defense is improving but I can't help but feel like there will be times when cooney and ennis get exposed up top do to average length and average quickness. Hasn't happened and maybe it won't but it's tough to imagine them posing the same types of problems as defenses with Triche/MCW or any defense with Rautins at the top.

3) Our bigs remain enigmas as far as I'm concerned. Overall the results seem to be improved and I still feel Keita is really solid in general, but I remain a bit underwhelmed with Xmas and DC.

Really, really good team but I still feel like there's fairly large question marks.

 

[OttoMets]

...

.

"But I still look at this team and see a couple of huge holes. The most glaring of these is the lack of a consistent go-to guy. I was expecting Fair to be that this year, but he is not getting the ball where he needs it to swing to the basket for those lay-ups he was getting last year...When the game is on the line and we HAVE to have a basket. What's the play? Cooney from the three point line at 40%?"

Agree. He's learning a new role and working with his third point guard in three years. I'm hopeful that things will come together for Fair; until they do, it's probably too soon to be talking about "best team ever."

"Three of four losses is the absolute best we can do."

It's also too soon to say that. The league doesn't look too strong; we're going to be favored in all but a handful of games. Maybe the ACC will prove me wrong, but I think only North Carolina and Duke are better than our best four non-conference opponents. Pittsburgh's not better, though history suggests they'll be a tough matchup.

"The great wild car in this is Grant. He's still learning how to play. When he steps up a level --- and he will --- this team will take off."

It's true that Grant is still learning to play. Based on the first quarter, it's too soon to think we can count on him. If he puts it together this season, we're going to be a very different team. Until then, we could have stretches where we struggle. It's all about having guys play well at the right times, though, and we're not necessarily going to lose a lot of games while guys develop. If Cooney and Ennis play at a high level, as we've seen, Grant can play badly and Fair can make mistakes and we can still win.

 

[Dave85]

1) Cooney's shot has a lot of legs in it. I love the guy but it's hard for me to think he may have some struggles as the season continues simply b/c there will be some fatigue. It's not that I don't think he'll continue to have an excellent season but shooting at this rate is something we haven't seen before.
2) The defense is improving but I can't help but feel like there will be times when cooney and ennis get exposed up top do to average length and average quickness.
3) Our bigs remain enigmas as far as I'm concerned. Overall the results seem to be improved and I still feel Keita is really solid in general, but I remain a bit underwhelmed with Xmas and DC.
Really, really good team but I still feel like there's fairly large question marks.

Keita started out really slow last year and got better as the year went on. Christmas is very good at blocking on defense. Coleman is getting better. As long as a group these three guys get 10 points and 10 rebounds and with 15 fouls between them I think we can compete with anyone's BIGs.

It seems TC and TE are doing pretty good in the steals department. I am not convinced we have lost anything with defense at the top of the zone. Plus, the way the team rebounded during the IU game gives me hope that this team is a better rebounding team than previously shown by the statistics.

As far as Cooney's legs are concerned, he seems much more athletic than Andy Rautins so far this year. He's really fast on the court. There were several articles on syracuse.com about TC spending the summer working on his legs instead of building his upper body. He seems pretty good right now. I'm not sure he's going to get "fatigue" like you say.

I think by December 31st we should have some good answers to your three points.

 

[Jeremy L.]

Whoa... brakes. Ranking mean nothing way way way too early for this talk.

09-10 Best Team in Cuse History imo (been watching 38 years)

I love that team but I hate seeing statements like this. If only Arinze were healthy...

 

[Jeremy L.]

And to respond to the thread, I haven't seen us play a good enough opponent to judge them quite yet. Once we play one of the big dogs from the ACC I'll be confident as far as where this team stands.

 

[doc05]

I would say that the 1987-88 team was the best I ever saw, and I have been watching since 1976.

That team was so frustrating - completely underachieved. No way that team should have lost to Rhode Island in the second round.

As for this thread...way, way too early. I like what I'm seeing and I like the progress being made. But let's see how things shape up after the new year.

 

[thebigeast44]

You really can't compare this year's team to the late 80's teams. Derrick Coleman and Rony would destroy this years front court and the General led offense would ensure a double digit victory.

Comparisons to recent teams are fair but it's far too early to make them IMHO.

 

[thebigeast44]

That team was so frustrating - completely underachieved. No way that team should have lost to Rhode Island in the second round.

As for this thread...way, way too early. I like what I'm seeing and I like the progress being made. But let's see how things shape up after the new year.

They lost in the 2nd round for one reason - Sherman Douglas was sick. If he had been healthy, it never would have happened.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

This^. The big difference is that competition back then was much better because there weren't any one-and-dones. The best players stayed for at least 3 years.

that 87 team had it all...legit center who could score, defend, board...power forward...great point guard...excellent outside shooter...serviceable glue guy (triche) and a stud off the bench (thompson).

that team is soooooo much better than the current crop that i actually feel dirty for even comparing them.

 

[OttoMets]

They lost in the 2nd round for one reason - Sherman Douglas was sick. If he had been healthy, it never would have happened.

They shouldn't have even been in that position. The 1988 team lost 6 or 7 games by three points or fewer. Should have been a one seed.

No focus, no free throws, always playing down to the level of the competition.

 

[orange2win]

that 87 team had it all...legit center who could score, defend, board...power forward...great point guard...excellent outside shooter...serviceable glue guy (triche) and a stud off the bench (thompson).

that team is soooooo much better than the current crop that i actually feel dirty for even comparing them.

Indeed that was one of SU's best teams ever, but their stats are a bit wobbly.

They never got higher that #5 in the polls. In the final poll they were ranked #10. Their record was 31-7, which is a lot of losses. They were beaten by the Hoyas all three times they played them. They lost twice to Pitt.

On the positive side. Not many teams have won the BE league, and got to the final of the BE and NCAA tournaments, all in the same year.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Indeed that was one of SU's best teams ever, but their stats are a bit wobbly.

They never got higher that #5 in the polls. In the final poll they were ranked #10. Their record was 31-7, which is a lot of losses. They were beaten by the Hoyas all three times they played them. They lost twice to Pitt.

On the positive side. Not many teams have won the BE league, and got to the final of the BE and NCAA tournaments, all in the same year.

I bet even the 2009-2010 team would end up with quite a few more losses if they played 1987 Syracuse's schedule.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I bet even the 2009-2010 team would end up with quite a few more losses if they played 1987 Syracuse's schedule.

I understand that back then guys stayed for 3 or four year and teams as a whole were better, but on the other hand you can't discount the gains in science in terms of Strength and Conditioning as well as Athletes as a whole are better in today's game.

 

[JOC44]

I understand that back then guys stayed for 3 or four year and teams as a whole were better, but on the other hand you can't discount the gains in science in terms of Strength and Conditioning as well as Athletes as a whole are better in today's game.

Derrick Coleman would be the best big man on this year's team today, and he's like 45 years old.

 

[anomander]

In a straight up comparison against past teams in the Boeheim era this team wouldn't even be his top 10 best. Factoring in everything else I still think there is a long way to go in the season. I think we are definitely one of the best teams in the country, but I still think we will experience some bumps in the road. I think there will be some games we will struggle to score, especially from outside. Our defense on the top of the zone may give up some big opponent performances from 3.

With that said it's still Final 4 or bust

 

[CaptainJ]

I love the passion but we havent played Duke since 1998 so they really are not our nemesis. They now will be in the mix for sure.

I love watching Duke receive "The Passion"

 

[CaptainJ]

Stay high. Stay high.

Maybe he ran out!

 

[Dave85]

They shouldn't have even been in that position. The 1988 team lost 6 or 7 games by three points or fewer. Should have been a one seed. No focus, no free throws, always playing down to the level of the competition.

I think this year's team has a little playing down to the level of the competition. Only because so far with better opponents they step up their game to play at a higher level. I am still floored by how well the Orange made foul shots in Maui. That was truly amazing. Their numbers were not quite as good against IU. It will be interesting to see of the free throw shooting in Maui was a fluke.

Same thing with Cooney's shooting. Man, that kid is on fire! I think he may actually improve his shooting as the season progresses. He really seems a lot more comfortable shooting this year. And he seems a lot more athletic than last year. His leg work is outstanding. He's very quick to get to a spot, catch, and shoot. Really just jaw dropping after last year's efforts!

 

[realorange]

Maui=soft rims=higher percentage shot making

 

[thebigeast44]

I understand that back then guys stayed for 3 or four year and teams as a whole were better, but on the other hand you can't discount the gains in science in terms of Strength and Conditioning as well as Athletes as a whole are better in today's game.

Did you ever see any of the late 80's team play? They lit up the Dome with their athleticism! To this day, there has never been a better leaper than Stevie Thompson, a rebounder like DC or a center like Rony. While training methods have changed, human evolution has not advanced in that little amount of time. Too much is made IMHO that today's athletes are better etc. The teams led by the General flew up and down the court. I can still see all those alley oop dunks now...

 

[Dave85]

Did you ever see any of the late 80's team play? They lit up the Dome with their athleticism! To this day, there has never been a better leaper than Stevie Thompson, a rebounder like DC or a center like Rony. While training methods have changed, human evolution has not advanced in that little amount of time. Too much is made IMHO that today's athletes are better etc. The teams led by the General flew up and down the court. I can still see all those alley oop dunks now...

JB has said several times there is a lot more parity today with all division I teams. I loved those 80's teams and they were awesome. But the teams we have had in the last five years have been pretty darn good. And the 2003 team with GMac blistering the nets was certainly one of the best of all times capable of beating any team in NCAA division I history. It's kind of hard to believe Carmelo averaging 22 points per game and 10 rebounds per game. Once the time machine is built, it's primary purpose will be NCAA cross-time basketball tournament so all these issues can be settled.

When I work on projects that have delays in delivery I always tell the project managers we are also working on building a time machine. And as soon as the time machine is built, we are going to make ALL our previous deadlines! This drives the project manager's nuts. Almost as nuts as my proposal to tell the project managers all our accomplishments we completed in the past two weeks as work we are going to do over the next two weeks. This way, we also get everything done on time! Essentially, our project manager status is always 30 days behind our actual work. They hate that one too!

 

[HOFCeluck]

This reminds me. ...I saw a picture of Jim Brown in a basketball uni on orangehops.net. No doubt he would absolutely dominate college hoops if he played today.

 

[realorange]

JB has said several times there is a lot more parity today with all division I teams. I loved those 80's teams and they were awesome. But the teams we have had in the last five years have been pretty darn good. And the 2003 team with GMac blistering the nets was certainly one of the best of all times capable of beating any team in NCAA division I history. It's kind of hard to believe Carmelo averaging 22 points per game and 10 rebounds per game. Once the time machine is built, it's primary purpose will be NCAA cross-time basketball tournament so all these issues can be settled.

When I work on projects that have delays in delivery I always tell the project managers we are also working on building a time machine. And as soon as the time machine is built, we are going to make ALL our previous deadlines! This drives the project manager's nuts. Almost as nuts as my proposal to tell the project managers all our accomplishments we completed in the past two weeks as work we are going to do over the next two weeks. This way, we also get everything done on time! Essentially, our project manager status is always 30 days behind our actual work. They hate that one too!

Holy overstatement, Batman! The 2003 team was great because it was a championship team. BUT it was not even the best Syracuse team let alone a team capable of beating any team in NCAA division I history. No time machine needed.

 

[jekelish]

Frankly, I'd take a healthy 09-10 team over just about any other team we've ever had. That team was so well rounded it's ridiculous. High basketball IQ, several shooters, good interior scoring and defense, lots of long athletes playing on the wings...and the team was actually pretty damn deep. With AO, we win the title that year. I have absolutely zero doubt about that.

 

[Dave85]

Holy overstatement, Batman! The 2003 team was great because it was a championship team. BUT it was not even the best Syracuse team let alone a team capable of beating any team in NCAA division I history. No time machine needed.

Maybe you are right. But GMac was amazing in the first half of national championship game. It's hard to judge what is meaningful in terms of greatness when it's crunch time and each play is important. Points per game, rebounds, steals, turnover ratio, vertical leaping ability, are all great measures. But it seems to me greatness is in the eye of the beholder.