This one is for the zone stinks dummies (those few left)

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

For the entire country, we're #3 in steals ,#2 in opposing shooting % (33%) and most importantly, #2 in overall defensive efficiency...

Love me some tavern league...

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http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/defensive-efficiency

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Well said!

 

[Zelda Zonk]

We're the #4 team in the country and haven't played anyone in the top 20. Where would you expect our stats to fall?

So, ignoring that those who don't favor the zone don't necessarily believe it can't be effective, but dislike it for myriad reasons, consider among the "dummies" people like Coach K, Brad Stevens, Izzo, Roy, Calipari... essentially, every other coach.

It may be easy to project simplemindedness, but you should try to resist the urge.

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

We're the #4 team in the country and haven't played anyone in the top 20. Where would you expect our stats to fall?

So, ignoring that those who don't favor the zone don't necessarily believe it can't be effective, but dislike it for myriad reasons, consider among the "dummies" people like Coach K, Brad Stevens, Izzo, Roy, Calipari... essentially, every other coach.

It may be easy to project simplemindedness, but you should try to resist the urge.

A) Does last year's sample size work for you then? We were 24th out of 345. I'll take the 93rd percentile.
How about the year before with 31 out of 345 (10-11)?
Strangely enough, we were also 31 in 09-10

B)http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

# 17 San Diego State 5-1 410

 

[moqui]

I have to go with Zelda on this one . . . I am a zone lover and an Orange lover, but this team is largely unproven, and will remain so for quite awhile. I hesitate to go overboard on judgements when we've played a fluke outdoor contest then a series of tilts against vastly overmatched opponents. Temple is a top 50 team (currently 47 in KenPom), so we should learn something there, but after that we have to wait until mid January before we start seeing real competition.

 

[zeekay]

Let's wait until we play Gtown or L'ville before making any conclusions. They typically destroy the zone. It's good against bad teams and teams that can't shoot. There are some years where it's good, but no guarantees this year is one of those.

We're still missing a shot blocking center, so I'm going with prediction that we will be worse on defense this year than last year in conference and NCAA tourny. We will have to make up for it with better offense (MCW is key).

 

[Orangezoo]

We're the #4 team in the country and haven't played anyone in the top 20. Where would you expect our stats to fall?

So, ignoring that those who don't favor the zone don't necessarily believe it can't be effective, but dislike it for myriad reasons, consider among the "dummies" people like Coach K, Brad Stevens, Izzo, Roy, Calipari... essentially, every other coach.

It may be easy to project simplemindedness, but you should try to resist the urge.

Speaking of simplemindedness... so only playing a team in the top 20 can tell you whether your defensive efficiency is for real? We have played a top 20 team in SDST, a top 50 team on the road in Ark, three well coached small major teams that are picked at the top or near the top of their conferences ( Princeton,Wagner, LBST) and then two true " cupcakes". I think that deserves a bit of attention. Its not as though we played Binghamton 7 times so lets take those details into consideration.

 

[Marsh01]

I have to go with Zelda on this one . . . I am a zone lover and an Orange lover, but this team is largely unproven, and will remain so for quite awhile. I hesitate to go overboard on judgements when we've played a fluke outdoor contest then a series of tilts against vastly overmatched opponents. Temple is a top 50 team (currently 47 in KenPom), so we should learn something there, but after that we have to wait until mid January before we start seeing real competition.

I agree. We really havent been tested yet and aside from Temple and detroit wont be truly tested until Louisville IMO. I am just glad that this team has basically another month until that game to fine tune some things.

It took a herculean effort from James to pull out the Arkansas game so lets just slow down. I am thrilled at this team potential come March but I need to see it against the better teams on our schedule first.

 

[moqui]

I agree. We really havent been tested yet and aside from Temple and detroit wont be truly tested until Louisville IMO. I am just glad that this team has basically another month until that game to fine tune some things.

yep . . . Dr. Boeheim is methodically building a monster in his laboratory, one piece at a time. We'll see how it all stitches together soon enough.

 

[Orangezoo]

On another note - the fact that we have the press and the zone that have both worked effectively plays into those numbers. SU's version of the zone is still different with the top two manning up on the ballhandlers for moments .. so the SU zone is not perfectly synonymous with the common "zone defense".

 

[TheRoyalIveyFund]

I have to go with Zelda on this one . . . I am a zone lover and an Orange lover, but this team is largely unproven, and will remain so for quite awhile. I hesitate to go overboard on judgements when we've played a fluke outdoor contest then a series of tilts against vastly overmatched opponents. Temple is a top 50 team (currently 47 in KenPom), so we should learn something there, but after that we have to wait until mid January before we start seeing real competition.

While I agree about making snap decisions, the subject was "for those that say the zone stinks." I didn't say for those that think there's no place for man, that our zone is just ok, etc. I've provided this year's stats showing the clearly the zone is working. Maybe it proves only adequate in a month but it's clear, the zone can and often does work, and work real well...therefore, "to those that say the zone stinks..."

Also, the previous three years of data tells us not only does it not stink, it was fantastic. So, as I sit here in Dec of 2012, I'm quite confident restating that anyone thinking the zone stinks is just plain silly.

Did I want JB to go man vs Mich St in the tourney after a while, or Vt to change the tempo? Sure. For each one of those, K, Izzo, etc, stayed too long with man and got beat.

 

[cusetown1]

I have to go with Zelda on this one . . . I am a zone lover and an Orange lover, but this team is largely unproven, and will remain so for quite awhile. I hesitate to go overboard on judgements when we've played a fluke outdoor contest then a series of tilts against vastly overmatched opponents. Temple is a top 50 team (currently 47 in KenPom), so we should learn something there, but after that we have to wait until mid January before we start seeing real competition.

The "real games" portion.

 

[armory]

Detractors can antagonize all they want... but its hard to get much better than top5 in pretty much every defensive category. Nothing will change their mind...

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Speaking of simplemindedness... so only playing a team in the top 20 can tell you whether your defensive efficiency is for real? We have played a top 20 team in SDST, a top 50 team on the road in Ark, three well coached small major teams that are picked at the top or near the top of their conferences ( Princeton,Wagner, LBST) and then two true " cupcakes". I think that deserves a bit of attention. Its not as though we played Binghamton 7 times so lets take those details into consideration.

1. Yes. Only playing teams that could/should test you would be an adequate indicator that your defense is 'good,' and playing a balanced schedule over the course of a season, along with everyone else, is an indicator of actual defensive efficiency. Your way, you could trot out Manlius Junior High against us, we'd get a thousand steals, and you'd say it means we're the best team to ever put on uniforms.

2. It's not impressive in the least to have beaten SDSU. They're fringe top 20, at best, and we beat them on an aircraft carrier. It's not impressive in the least for a top 10 team to beat a top 50 team. It's not even worth mentioning that an opponent is in the top 50. Seriously? That's a credit to us? It's attitudes like this that lead to so many unwarranted Court Stormings.

3. The rhetoric that our opponents are picked to finish at the top of their conferences is plucked straight from JB. Again — not impressive. I'm not calling them cupcakes, but when the betting line is always >9, you're not being challenged.

When the JB Love Fest re: the march to 900 wins shows on the screen that the road consists of games against Wagner, Princeton, Colgate, Arkansas, Eastern Michigan, LBS, Monmouth, Canisius, and Detroit, it's kinda easy to see how you get to 900. Putting that schedule on the screen at the same time as you're talking about JB's credentials sorta diminishes the accomplishment...

But, whatever. You're still missing the point. Who is saying "the zone stinks" and if there is any ADULT using that terminology, what is actually meant? No one's saying it can't be effective and isn't sometimes a weapon. Most opponents don't like it for a number of reasons, and those seem to be the same reasons why more coaches don't employ it. So, when you're calling opponents "dummies," you're including a hell of a lot of very successful coaches, including the few who are/were more successful than JB.

 

[Knicks411]

It's totally fair to say we haven't played that tough of a schedule yet. I was just looking at it today, Kenpom has it 206 or something.

He has San Diego State 30, and Arkansas 98. Princeton is 88, and no one else in the top 100. It hasn't been a challenging schedule, but we're also killing people. Obviously you want to play good teams and see how you stack up but I'm pretty confident we're one of the 5 or so best teams in the country

 

[cusetown1]

It's totally fair to say we haven't played that tough of a schedule yet. I was just looking at it today, Kenpom has it 206 or something.

He has San Diego State 30, and Arkansas 98. Princeton is 88, and no one else in the top 100. It hasn't been a challenging schedule, but we're also killing people. Obviously you want to play good teams and see how you stack up but I'm pretty confident we're one of the 5 or so best teams in the country

kenpom also rewards Wisconsin when they lose.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Detractors can antagonize all they want... but its hard to get much better than top5 in pretty much every defensive category. Nothing will change their mind...

I'm kinda in shock.
Seriously, please explain how you think our defensive category stats are impressive when SU features a full squad of recruits so much more talented than those on the teams we've played.

It's been like a team of all-stars playing against bench reserves in every game. Why wouldn't we be dominating them defensively? To say nothing of the pronounced size differentials. Even the announcers have consistently commented on that simple matter.

I also think there's confusion here about what is the actual argument. NO ONE is saying we aren't good. The "detractors*" are merely pointing out that we haven't really proven it yet.

*And, let's examine this: "detractors" and 'antagonizers?' Christ, man. We're all Syracuse fans. We're here, aren't we? You're probably the type who believes he's more of a fan because he refuses to see or admit anything negative. Whatever. It's sad when people need to divide the base this way. The way I see it, there are objective arguments versus biased arguments in whatever matter is being discussed. Period.

 

[Orangezoo]

1. Yes. Only playing teams that could/should test you would be an adequate indicator that your defense is 'good,' and playing a balanced schedule over the course of a season, along with everyone else, is an indicator of actual defensive efficiency. Your way, you could trot out Manlius Junior High against us, we'd get a thousand steals, and you'd say it means we're the best team to ever put on uniforms.

2. It's not impressive in the least to have beaten SDSU. They're fringe top 20, at best, and we beat them on an aircraft carrier. It's not impressive in the least for a top 10 team to beat a top 50 team. It's not even worth mentioning that an opponent is in the top 50. Seriously? That's a credit to us? It's attitudes like this that lead to so many unwarranted Court Stormings.

3. The rhetoric that our opponents are picked to finish at the top of their conferences is plucked straight from JB. Again — not impressive. I'm not calling them cupcakes, but when the betting line is always >9, you're not being challenged.

When the JB Love Fest re: the march to 900 wins shows on the screen that the road consists of games against Wagner, Princeton, Colgate, Arkansas, Eastern Michigan, LBS, Monmouth, Canisius, and Detroit, it's kinda easy to see how you get to 900. Putting that schedule on the screen at the same time as you're talking about JB's credentials sorta diminishes the accomplishment...

But, whatever. You're still missing the point. Who is saying "the zone stinks" and if there is any ADULT using that terminology, what is actually meant? No one's saying it can't be effective and isn't sometimes a weapon. Most opponents don't like it for a number of reasons, and those seem to be the same reasons why more coaches don't employ it. So, when you're calling opponents "dummies," you're including a hell of a lot of very successful coaches, including the few who are/were more successful than JB.

Did you even read my post or did you have a pre-disposed answer in the same way you attacked the OP's comment? Of course we need to see how the season pans out, thats beyond an over-generalization. For that reason we know who is in the final four in April, not November.

I agree with the second half of your first point, which is why I made the comment we didn't play 7 Binghamton's or MJH as you preferred to use.. not sure why your arguing on that. My point was at this point in time we have beaten teams that we should have and handily and those teams are far from teams that will sit in the 200-300 RPI range other than maybe colgate and EMU. These are teams that are well coached. Just because they are not top 20 does not mean anything regarding efficiency. How do you define a top 20 team? Honestly.. its an imaginary line.

As pointed out above looked where we finished the past few years. Look at the fact this group as it stands hasn't played together as a unit for very long. At this point in time the defense is impressive considering we have played a couple of solid teams and a few mediocre mid majors.

So at this point why shouldn't we say the defense has been good? Because it doesn't meet your criteria? Do you follow me? I am just saying the whole lets throw a wet towel on the optimism doesn't make sense. Maybe a few on here get over-optomistic but for the most part I highly doubt anyone is crowning us champs - just we are very much in the picture at the moment.

 

[moqui]

Detractors can antagonize all they want... but its hard to get much better than top5 in pretty much every defensive category. Nothing will change their mind...

it's not about hate, it's just a simple recognition that you can't really judge the power of the defense (or the offense) when it has only faced token opposition.

I believe that Syracuse is going to once again have one of the best defenses in the nation this year, but at the same time I know that we haven't really proven it yet.

you can hold both propositions at the same time.

the only thing worse than the "haters" like BC & igor are the Kool Aid Brigade who can't take even the mildest bit of criticism or doubt.

 

[PhatOrange]

We're the #4 team in the country and haven't played anyone in the top 20. Where would you expect our stats to fall?

Just like Buttgers football team

 

[CorduroyG]

1. Yes. Only playing teams that could/should test you would be an adequate indicator that your defense is 'good,' and playing a balanced schedule over the course of a season, along with everyone else, is an indicator of actual defensive efficiency. Your way, you could trot out Manlius Junior High against us, we'd get a thousand steals, and you'd say it means we're the best team to ever put on uniforms.

2. It's not impressive in the least to have beaten SDSU. They're fringe top 20, at best, and we beat them on an aircraft carrier. It's not impressive in the least for a top 10 team to beat a top 50 team. It's not even worth mentioning that an opponent is in the top 50. Seriously? That's a credit to us? It's attitudes like this that lead to so many unwarranted Court Stormings.

3. The rhetoric that our opponents are picked to finish at the top of their conferences is plucked straight from JB. Again — not impressive. I'm not calling them cupcakes, but when the betting line is always >9, you're not being challenged.

When the JB Love Fest re: the march to 900 wins shows on the screen that the road consists of games against Wagner, Princeton, Colgate, Arkansas, Eastern Michigan, LBS, Monmouth, Canisius, and Detroit, it's kinda easy to see how you get to 900. Putting that schedule on the screen at the same time as you're talking about JB's credentials sorta diminishes the accomplishment...

But, whatever. You're still missing the point. Who is saying "the zone stinks" and if there is any ADULT using that terminology, what is actually meant? No one's saying it can't be effective and isn't sometimes a weapon. Most opponents don't like it for a number of reasons, and those seem to be the same reasons why more coaches don't employ it. So, when you're calling opponents "dummies," you're including a hell of a lot of very successful coaches, including the few who are/were more successful than JB.

Looks like somebodys got a case of the mondays.

Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Townie72]

We're the #4 team in the country and haven't played anyone in the top 20. Where would you expect our stats to fall?

So, ignoring that those who don't favor the zone don't necessarily believe it can't be effective, but dislike it for myriad reasons, consider among the "dummies" people like Coach K, Brad Stevens, Izzo, Roy, Calipari... essentially, every other coach.

It may be easy to project simplemindedness, but you should try to resist the urge.

Ahh, the "Nobody else does it, so it must be bad" argument.

Barcelona is the world's best soccer team.

They have an approach to the game that no one else has.

They use smaller, quicker players, ball control (70%+ time of possession) and pass vertically into seams created by all the movement.

They "recruit" or "sign" players that match their offensive scheme.

I wonder if after they lose a game --- which does happen --- if Spaniards are asking why Barcelona doesn't mimic Manchester United and just about every other team in their offensive approach.

 

[kuethstheman]

Detractors can antagonize all they want... but its hard to get much better than top5 in pretty much every defensive category. Nothing will change their mind...

Funny. I sat in a restaurant in New Orleans a few years ago and watched that guy do his pose for about half an hour like that. The kids got a real kick out of him. Didn't realize he was famous.

 

[armory]

it's not about hate, it's just a simple recognition that you can't really judge the power of the defense (or the offense) when it has only faced token opposition.

I believe that Syracuse is going to once again have one of the best defenses in the nation this year, but at the same time I know that we haven't really proven it yet.

you can hold both propositions at the same time.

the only thing worse than the "haters" like BC & igor are the Kool Aid Brigade who can't take even the mildest bit of criticism or doubt.

OK, but don't pretend like the haters wouldn't be lining up with their paddles to get in as many whacks on the dead horse they could muster if the defense rankings were poor at this point.

 

[CJSyr]

When the JB Love Fest re: the march to 900 wins shows on the screen that the road consists of games against Wagner, Princeton, Colgate, Arkansas, Eastern Michigan, LBS, Monmouth, Canisius, and Detroit, it's kinda easy to see how you get to 900. Putting that schedule on the screen at the same time as you're talking about JB's credentials sorta diminishes the accomplishment...

I'm not going to address the rest of your argument, but when people say stupid things like this, it gets my blood boiling. How many times do people need to be shown the cupcakes that ALL schools play? While I will grant you that JB plays fewer of the elite non-conference foes than some of his peers, the numbers are not that far off. Most of those coaches also don't play a gauntlet conference schedule as SU has the past few years. How do you explain SU high strength of schedule rating year after year? Kentucky plays in the less-than-spectacular SEC, so they have to try to get better games to raise their SOS. Yet, who else do they play? Lafayette, Morehead State, LIU Brooklyn, Samford, Portland, Lipscomb, Marshall, Eastern Michigan, etc. How about North Carolina? Again, some great games in there, but they also include Webb, Florida Atlantic, Long Beach State, Chaminade, UAB, East Tenn. State, McNeese State, etc.

Does JB play as many elite non-conference games? No. Does he have to? Look at the Big East schedule most years.

I guess what I'm saying is, while you're making your argument (which again, I'm not going to address), don't disclose your obvious bias against JB by making stupid claims like the one you just made without the facts to back it up. You're attacking JB's credentials and attempting to diminish them without a sword, IMO.