This one is for the zone stinks dummies (those few left)

[Knicks411]

OK, but don't pretend like the haters wouldn't be lining up with their paddles to get in as many whacks on the dead horse they could muster if the defense rankings were poor at this point.

That's true, but I don't think the two are equivalent.

Putting up bad numbers against a bad schedule would tell me a lot more than putting up good numbers against a bad schedule.

All that being said I expect us to finish around 15-20 defensively this year, with some more upside if the rebounding is really good.

 

[stuckinbig11]

For the entire country, we're #3 in steals ,#2 in opposing shooting % (33%) and most importantly, #2 in overall defensive efficiency...

Love me some tavern league...

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http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/defensive-efficiency

There's a lot of difference between a tavern league zone played by old, chubby, bald guys and a JB zone played by young, fit, athletic guys. Some old, chubby, bald guys don't recognize that fact.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Pfft.

Our defense is a fortress, unless Coleman's in, and then it's not.

 

[CorduroyG]

I'm not going to address the rest of your argument, but when people say stupid things like this, it gets my blood boiling. How many times do people need to be shown the cupcakes that ALL schools play? While I will grant you that JB plays fewer of the elite non-conference foes than some of his peers, the numbers are not that far off. Most of those coaches also don't play a gauntlet conference schedule as SU has the past few years. How do you explain SU high strength of schedule rating year after year? Kentucky plays in the less-than-spectacular SEC, so they have to try to get better games to raise their SOS. Yet, who else do they play? Lafayette, Morehead State, LIU Brooklyn, Samford, Portland, Lipscomb, Marshall, Eastern Michigan, etc. How about North Carolina? Again, some great games in there, but they also include Webb, Florida Atlantic, Long Beach State, Chaminade, UAB, East Tenn. State, McNeese State, etc.

Does JB play as many elite non-conference games? No. Does he have to? Look at the Big East schedule most years.

I guess what I'm saying is, while you're making your argument (which again, I'm not going to address), don't disclose your obvious bias against JB by making stupid claims like the one you just made without the facts to back it up. You're attacking JB's credentials and attempting to diminish them without a sword, IMO.

I love how he wrote that we haven't beaten a top 20 team, its pointed out that san diego st is ranked 17, and he calls them a fringe top 20 team lol. You're either a top 20 team or you're not. Even if san diego st was ranked in top 5 he wouldn't count it since it took place on a ship. Last I checked we played in the same sunny and windy conditions and had to put the ball in the same hoop that san diego st was clanging everything off of.

And a top 50 road win is a quality win. The selection committe looks at games like that, they matter. But zelda laughs off a win like that, only top 10 wins count. Unless we beat a fringe top 10 team lol

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[OttoMets]

...

the only thing worse than the "haters" like BC & igor are the Kool Aid Brigade who can't take even the mildest bit of criticism or doubt.

The brigade is out in full force after Long Beach State. Kind of surprised at the exuberance on here. I'm as happy as the next guy with the win, the style of play, and a couple individual performances, but it'd be nice to have dispassionate discussions (along the lines of "this is what Player X is doing well; this is what Player X isn't doing well") without it deteriorating into name-calling and agenda-questioning.

Edit: I don't, by the way, think we're going to have a defense as solid as last year's. We have fewer - and less experienced - guards and the center spot is a weakness when Baye isn't in there (and he'll probably struggle against Big East teams that get away with physical play). Forwards will be better than we've ever had, but that might not make up for the other deficiencies.

 

[NineOneSeven]

My prediction for this year-- we will have a couple What losses. This is based on what I have seen thus far, when our offense gets stagnant and our jumpers aren't falling (with little post production).

 

[moqui]

I love how he wrote that we haven't beaten a top 20 team, its pointed out that san diego st is ranked 17, and he calls them a fringe top 20 team lol. You're either a top 20 team or you're not. Even if san diego st was ranked in top 5 he wouldn't count it since it took place on a ship. Last I checked we played in the same sunny and windy conditions and had to put the ball in the same hoop that san diego st was clanging everything off of.

And a top 50 road win is a quality win. The selection committe looks at games like that, they matter. But zelda laughs off a win like that, only top 10 wins count. Unless we beat a fringe top 10 team lol

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SDSU is a legit top 20 team and will probably climb even higher from its current spot . . . but you can't really take anything from that game. It was a fluke - the wind turned SU's 2-3 zone into something like a 4-3 zone.

For the purposes of trying to figure out just how good this year's defense is, you have to toss that game out.

 

[cusetown1]

SDSU is a legit top 20 team and will probably climb even higher from its current spot . . . but you can't really take anything from that game. It was a fluke - the wind turned SU's 2-3 zone into something like a 4-3 zone.

For the purposes of trying to figure out just how good this year's defense is, you have to toss that game out.

Weather aside, the bully ball was fun to watch that day.

 

[Knicks411]

And a top 50 road win is a quality win. The selection committe looks at games like that, they matter. But zelda laughs off a win like that, only top 10 wins count. Unless we beat a fringe top 10 team lol

What's the argument for Arkansas as a top 50 team though? 98 in Pomeroy, 87 in Sagarin.

 

[HOFCeluck]

How many people HATE zone? One?

 

[pfister1]

When the JB Love Fest re: the march to 900 wins shows on the screen that the road consists of games against Wagner, Princeton, Colgate, Arkansas, Eastern Michigan, LBS, Monmouth, Canisius, and Detroit, it's kinda easy to see how you get to 900. Putting that schedule on the screen at the same time as you're talking about JB's credentials sorta diminishes the accomplishment...

Most opponents don't like it for a number of reasons, and those seem to be the same reasons why more coaches don't employ it. So, when you're calling opponents "dummies," you're including a hell of a lot of very successful coaches, including the few who are/were more successful than JB.

Dude you are a freaking moron. 900 is the number, only two other guys have achieved it at the Division I level....EVER. Only one guy will have achieved it, winning all of his games at a HIGH Division I level program, JB.

I don't care who you play, its not easy to see how JB accomplished it and it wouldn't have been even if he had coached 37 years in the ECAC.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

The brigade is out in full force after Long Beach State. Kind of surprised at the exuberance on here. I'm as happy as the next guy with the win, the style of play, and a couple individual performances, but it'd be nice to have dispassionate discussions (along the lines of "this is what Player X is doing well; this is what Player X isn't doing well") without it deteriorating into name-calling and agenda-questioning.

Edit: I don't, by the way, think we're going to have a defense as solid as last year's. We have fewer - and less experienced - guards and the center spot is a weakness when Baye isn't in there (and he'll probably struggle against Big East teams that get away with physical play). Forwards will be better than we've ever had, but that might not make up for the other deficiencies.

I disagree, I think this year may be the best SU D ever (beating last years). It is good now and should get better.
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Position by position, I think the only worse spot is at the center this year. MCW is miles better than Scoop, not even in the same league. I actually like BT over Dion. The difference in the 4th guard is inconsequential. I know KJo had good numbers but he seemed to be the weak forward link to me and CJ and JS are better. As for the center position there are at least a ton of fouls to give this year with 3 potential people along with options for JB to use depending on game situations (like using a big body like DC2 to match up with someone like Sullinger if he had to).

If you consider D rebounding as part of the D, the edge goes even more towards this years squad.

 

[OttoMets]

I disagree, I think this year may be the best SU D ever (beating last years). It is good now and should get better.
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Position by position, I think the only worse spot is at the center this year. MCW is miles better than Scoop, not even in the same league. I actually like BT over Dion. The difference in the 4th guard is inconsequential. I know KJo had good numbers but he seemed to be the weak forward link to me and CJ and JS are better. As for the center position there are at least a ton of fouls to give this year with 3 potential people along with options for JB to use depending on game situations (like using a big body like DC2 to match up with someone like Sullinger if he had to).

If you consider D rebounding as part of the D, the edge goes even more towards this years squad.

Joseph was very much the weak link; Fair and Southerland should be a lot better (each has had some trouble in the early going; both have lost guys on the baseline for lobs in the past couple games, but they're both quite good).

The guards can absolutely be better, but they're not there yet. And I think their ceiling is a little lower than it could be because Mike and Triche are going to be playing over 33 minutes per game and expending a lot of energy. They may find that they have to take some possessions off.

Center...well, there's a lot of room for improvement.

 

[Knicks411]

If you consider D rebounding as part of the D, the edge goes even more towards this years squad.

D rebounding has to be considered a part of defense, and this is wh ere we have the upside potential. In the past our defense has been capped, so to speak, just short of being uber elite (like say top 5 in the country) because we allowed too many second shots.

 

[pearl31]

Ahh, the "Nobody else does it, so it must be bad" argument.

Barcelona is the world's best soccer team.

They have an approach to the game that no one else has.

They use smaller, quicker players, ball control (70%+ time of possession) and pass vertically into seams created by all the movement.

They "recruit" or "sign" players that match their offensive scheme.

I wonder if after they lose a game --- which does happen --- if Spaniards are asking why Barcelona doesn't mimic Manchester United and just about every other team in their offensive approach.

Excellent analogy.
(maybe I like it so much because Barca happens to be my favourite club and Spain my fav national side )

 

[Townie72]

Excellent analogy.
(maybe I like it so much because Barca happens to be my favourite club and Spain my fav national side )

I thought it was a pretty good analogy too ... but I'm not sure many would understand the pure brilliance of developing a style of play that is so much at odds with the conventional wisdom and at the same time so effective.

I'm a relatively new soccer fan and it took me a while to appreciate the game at its highest level and to understand that there are different styles of play.

I first watched a lot of the EPL. The emphasis there was on big, rugged players on defense and bringing the ball down the sideline and crossing it to brilliant forwards like Wayne Rooney, Van Persie, Carlos Tevez and Luis Suarez. There are any number of physical specimens like Adebayor and Peter Crouch and there was Didier Drogba. These guys are twice Xabi Alonzo's size.

I had an opportunity to see Barcelona play a couple of times at Camp Nou, once against Real Madrid. I recognized that what these guys were doing out there was fundamentally different than what I had seen anywhere else. And that it was devastatingly effective.

I liked the Arsenal team from two years ago with Samir Nasri and Ces Fabregas ... two of the niftiest passers. They had more ball control than most. But they still couldn't do what Messi and those guys can do.

 

[HOFCeluck]

For all it's brilliance we still average a final four every 12 years...pretty poor for an elite program.

 

[CorduroyG]

Dude you are a freaking moron. 900 is the number, only two other guys have achieved it at the Division I level....EVER. Only one guy will have achieved it, winning all of his games at a HIGH Division I level program, JB.

I don't care who you play, its not easy to see how JB accomplished it and it wouldn't have been even if he had coached 37 years in the ECAC.

LOL, i somehow missed where he wrote that its easy to see how jb got to 900 wins. That might be the single dumbest thing ive read on here, and considering bluecurtain posts here thats saying something. Its not like we've played in arguably the toughest conference in the country the last 30 years. Oh wait, we have. Last i checked we tied the big east record going 17-1 last year, and are 44-10 in the BE over the last 3 years. Pretty sure we didnt rack up those wins against canisius and wagner.

 

[Knicks411]

For all it's brilliance we still average a final four every 12 years...pretty poor for an elite program.

Yeah, I mean I understand the Barca analogy, but we haven't experienced the same kind of success they have

 

[NineOneSeven]

For all it's brilliance we still average a final four every 12 years...pretty poor for an elite program.

Uh oh. Be careful in these waters. Lot of sensitive people 'round these parts!

 

[Knicks411]

Our non conference SOS is often not that good, but whether you use Pomeroy or the RPI or what, ouu r overall SOS is usally top 25-30ish; there's no way you "easily" get to 900 wins

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah...that's as ridiculous as some of the superlatives that get thrown around here.

 

[CorduroyG]

For all it's brilliance we still average a final four every 12 years...pretty poor for an elite program.

that i agree with, we desperately need a final 4 run very soon. although to be fair we probably would have 2 more final 4's to our name if not for the AO and Fab stuff.

 

[NineOneSeven]

that i agree with, we desperately need a final 4 run very soon. although to be fair we probably would have 2 more final 4's to our name if not for the AO and Fab stuff.

No question we caught some unfortunate breaks, but nothing is a guarantee and at the end of the day, we don't have two more final fours.

 

[Townie72]

Yeah, I mean I understand the Barca analogy, but we haven't experienced the same kind of success they have

It has to do with a adopting a unique style of play. It's just that their unique style of play and the players they have to run that system are soooo effective. And everyone knows what they are doing and there's no patent on it.

What JB has done with the zone has been to develop it and to recruit players that can play it. (I know you know that)