Thoughts and musings on our offense

[CIL]

It is clear to all that this year has been a very challenging one for our offense. There have been countless criticisms of our current offensive coordinator, and some of those are valid. This is certainly disappointing considering last year's exciting and effective offense. However, I am more than willing to give McDonald as pass on this year.

I saw a post by OrangePA (whom I respect) in another thread which said something to the effect that the Paulus offense of 2009 made this one look like Oregon's. While I chuckled, I also knew that it was factually incorrect. In fact, I would argue that last year was an outlier in what has been over a decade of bad offensive football by this program.

In fact, this year's offense in terms of yards gained per game is the goddamned 2nd best we have had in the last decade.

Here are the numbers:

• 2004 -- 363 YPG
• 2005 -- 282 YPG
• 2006 -- 292 YPG
• 2007 -- 318 YPG
• 2008 -- 270 YPG
• 2009 (The Paulus Oregon Year) -- 330 YPG
• 2010 -- 322 YPG
• 2011 -- 348 YPG
• 2012 -- 475 YPG
• 2013 -- 366 YPG

The biggest problem is not scheme or play calling, it's TALENT. Since 2004, we have had exactly 4 skill position players selected in the NFL draft (Nassib, Carter, Williams, and Morant). Not one of those was drafted higher than the 4th round (although you could make an argument about Williams slipping due to issues off the field). We haven't had dynamic talent on that side of the ball in close to 20 years. I mean, you would think on sheer luck we'd have an offensive skill guy taken in the top 3 rounds in a decade, but we haven't been quite that lucky.

That being said, I also understand that dynamic collegiate may not translate to draftability due to size, arm strength, etc. However, outside of DC3 and Mike Williams, I really haven't seen a guy out there that could make plays on his own or gain yards without a large hole. Have you? Alec Lemon was a great productive player for us, and this is by no means a slight against one of the hardest working kids we have had here -- I'm not so sure defensive coordinators stayed up nights wondering how they were going to shut down Lemon.

I think GMAC has a long ways to go as an offensive coordinator. His playbook appears to be much to large right now. I'm sure we lead the country in amount of offensive formations lined up in this year (whop dee damn do!). He sometimes strays from plays that are working.

We all know that he is working with a limited QB situation. We are throwing our starting FS out on offense hoping he can shag down balls with a cast on his hand. Ashton Broyld is the Phillip Hughes of football right now. He has a ton of talent but I have yet to see anything in game situations that makes me think he is some transcendent talent. His offense is predicated on getting playmakers the ball in space -- period. He is not going to waver on that right now.

However, GMAC does one thing better than any coach we have had here in a very long time -- and that's recruit Florida. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on that ability alone. Marrone's push into NYC reaped such threats as Stevie Rene, Mario Tull, John Kinder, etc. That's not to say kids like Morgan and Bromley can't play. But I'd rather take my chances on a Florida kid. I'm not sure this program is in a state where it can wait 3-4 years for players to pan out.

This program is in need of a major talent infusion. He is the guy that gives us the best chance at that. If he doesn't work out in 3 years, that's fine. I also believe that he will leave that talent situation on that side of the ball better than the staffs before him.

 

[RF2044]

Great post, CIL.

 

[Scooch]

Yep.

Most college coaches aren't particularly great. That's why they are coaching in college.

If this guy can recruit, then let him go recruit. If he's even a below average OC, but a great recruiter, we'll come out ahead.

 

[Trueblue25]

Brinkley went un-drafted?

Learn something everyday.

 

[Doctor44]

While I agree with you - to some extent, he also has not proven himself to be able to recruit at SU yet. Edourd is our only big recruit from Fla thusfar. Like his playcalling, his recruiting is still as of yet, unproven. I hope for some athletic players in the future, but the staff kinda has a mixed message then. Shafer touted his ability to win with below average talent and he wanted to bring a "MAC" type feel to this program. I'm not quite sure how to feel, if now we're just flat out saying we're not talented enough.

 

[BORZAK]

great post CIL

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We had eerily similar lines of thinking today.

 

[phil77]

"

While I agree with you - to some extent, he also has not proven himself to be able to recruit at SU yet. Edourd is our only big recruit from Fla thusfar. Like his playcalling, his recruiting is still as of yet, unproven. I hope for some athletic players in the future, but the staff kinda has a mixed message then. Shafer touted his ability to win with below average talent and he wanted to bring a "MAC" type feel to this program. I'm not quite sure how to feel, if now we're just flat out saying we're not talented enough.

"The class he helped assemble at Minnesota in 2008 was ranked 17th in the nation and third in the Big Ten by Rivals and included seven four-star athletes."

I think if he can recruit in Minnesota he should be able to recruit in Syracuse especially with actual games scheduled in Florida to help.

 

[007]

It is clear to all that this year has been a very challenging one for our offense. There have been countless criticisms of our current offensive coordinator, and some of those are valid. This is certainly disappointing considering last year's exciting and effective offense. However, I am more than willing to give McDonald as pass on this year.

I saw a post by OrangePA (whom I respect) in another thread which said something to the effect that the Paulus offense of 2009 made this one look like Oregon's. While I chuckled, I also knew that it was factually incorrect. In fact, I would argue that last year was an outlier in what has been over a decade of bad offensive football by this program.

In fact, this year's offense in terms of yards gained per game is the goddamned 2nd best we have had in the last decade.

Here are the numbers:

• 2004 -- 363 YPG
• 2005 -- 282 YPG
• 2006 -- 292 YPG
• 2007 -- 318 YPG
• 2008 -- 270 YPG
• 2009 (The Paulus Oregon Year) -- 330 YPG
• 2010 -- 322 YPG
• 2011 -- 348 YPG
• 2012 -- 475 YPG
• 2013 -- 366 YPG

The biggest problem is not scheme or play calling, it's TALENT. Since 2004, we have had exactly 4 skill position players selected in the NFL draft (Nassib, Carter, Williams, and Morant). Not one of those was drafted higher than the 4th round (although you could make an argument about Williams slipping due to issues off the field). We haven't had dynamic talent on that side of the ball in close to 20 years. I mean, you would think on sheer luck we'd have an offensive skill guy taken in the top 3 rounds in a decade, but we haven't been quite that lucky.

That being said, I also understand that dynamic collegiate may not translate to draftability due to size, arm strength, etc. However, outside of DC3 and Mike Williams, I really haven't seen a guy out there that could make plays on his own or gain yards without a large hole. Have you? Alec Lemon was a great productive player for us, and this is by no means a slight against one of the hardest working kids we have had here -- I'm not so sure defensive coordinators stayed up nights wondering how they were going to shut down Lemon.

I think GMAC has a long ways to go as an offensive coordinator. His playbook appears to be much to large right now. I'm sure we lead the country in amount of offensive formations lined up in this year (whop dee damn do!). He sometimes strays from plays that are working.

We all know that he is working with a limited QB situation. We are throwing our starting FS out on offense hoping he can shag down balls with a cast on his hand. Ashton Broyld is the Phillip Hughes of football right now. He has a ton of talent but I have yet to see anything in game situations that makes me think he is some transcendent talent. His offense is predicated on getting playmakers the ball in space -- period. He is not going to waver on that right now.

However, GMAC does one thing better than any coach we have had here in a very long time -- and that's recruit Florida. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on that ability alone. Marrone's push into NYC reaped such threats as Stevie Rene, Mario Tull, John Kinder, etc. That's not to say kids like Morgan and Bromley can't play. But I'd rather take my chances on a Florida kid. I'm not sure this program is in a state where it can wait 3-4 years for players to pan out.

This program is in need of a major talent infusion. He is the guy that gives us the best chance at that. If he doesn't work out in 3 years, that's fine. I also believe that he will leave that talent situation on that side of the ball better than the staffs before him.

Late to the party here, but great post, CIL.

It probably wont sit well with those debating how much NFL talent is on this roster...

The fact is we did lose NFL level talent from that 475 YPG 2012 team, both players and coaches.

GM is the best asset this program currently has going for it.

 

[SmilinBob]

There are always pluses and minuses and I agree CIL, overall the offense will improve. I firmly believe this staff is trying to figure things out on how to plug and play with this offense and yes, there have been misses but the potential is there for something really good and will sift through the tougher times for the better ones ahead. They and mostly GM will get it and as long as he can get his flow with the offense, the better.

That said, I want to see a lot of the silly things that are controllable fixed. Coming out of a TO and still being confused. Not lining up right. That has to be tightened up. Overall though, I'm pretty happy with what has been done and look forward to the future being productive.

 

[RMH44]

While I agree with you - to some extent, he also has not proven himself to be able to recruit at SU yet. Edourd is our only big recruit from Fla thusfar. Like his playcalling, his recruiting is still as of yet, unproven. I hope for some athletic players in the future, but the staff kinda has a mixed message then. Shafer touted his ability to win with below average talent and he wanted to bring a "MAC" type feel to this program. I'm not quite sure how to feel, if now we're just flat out saying we're not talented enough.

McDonald was the main reason we salvaged last year's class after being hired at the eleventh hour. This is his first full year recruiting for SU...give the guy a chance.

 

[Millhouse]

It is clear to all that this year has been a very challenging one for our offense. There have been countless criticisms of our current offensive coordinator, and some of those are valid. This is certainly disappointing considering last year's exciting and effective offense. However, I am more than willing to give McDonald as pass on this year.

I saw a post by OrangePA (whom I respect) in another thread which said something to the effect that the Paulus offense of 2009 made this one look like Oregon's. While I chuckled, I also knew that it was factually incorrect. In fact, I would argue that last year was an outlier in what has been over a decade of bad offensive football by this program.

In fact, this year's offense in terms of yards gained per game is the goddamned 2nd best we have had in the last decade.

Here are the numbers:

• 2004 -- 363 YPG
• 2005 -- 282 YPG
• 2006 -- 292 YPG
• 2007 -- 318 YPG
• 2008 -- 270 YPG
• 2009 (The Paulus Oregon Year) -- 330 YPG
• 2010 -- 322 YPG
• 2011 -- 348 YPG
• 2012 -- 475 YPG
• 2013 -- 366 YPG

The biggest problem is not scheme or play calling, it's TALENT. Since 2004, we have had exactly 4 skill position players selected in the NFL draft (Nassib, Carter, Williams, and Morant). Not one of those was drafted higher than the 4th round (although you could make an argument about Williams slipping due to issues off the field). We haven't had dynamic talent on that side of the ball in close to 20 years. I mean, you would think on sheer luck we'd have an offensive skill guy taken in the top 3 rounds in a decade, but we haven't been quite that lucky.

That being said, I also understand that dynamic collegiate may not translate to draftability due to size, arm strength, etc. However, outside of DC3 and Mike Williams, I really haven't seen a guy out there that could make plays on his own or gain yards without a large hole. Have you? Alec Lemon was a great productive player for us, and this is by no means a slight against one of the hardest working kids we have had here -- I'm not so sure defensive coordinators stayed up nights wondering how they were going to shut down Lemon.

I think GMAC has a long ways to go as an offensive coordinator. His playbook appears to be much to large right now. I'm sure we lead the country in amount of offensive formations lined up in this year (whop dee damn do!). He sometimes strays from plays that are working.

We all know that he is working with a limited QB situation. We are throwing our starting FS out on offense hoping he can shag down balls with a cast on his hand. Ashton Broyld is the Phillip Hughes of football right now. He has a ton of talent but I have yet to see anything in game situations that makes me think he is some transcendent talent. His offense is predicated on getting playmakers the ball in space -- period. He is not going to waver on that right now.

However, GMAC does one thing better than any coach we have had here in a very long time -- and that's recruit Florida. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on that ability alone. Marrone's push into NYC reaped such threats as Stevie Rene, Mario Tull, John Kinder, etc. That's not to say kids like Morgan and Bromley can't play. But I'd rather take my chances on a Florida kid. I'm not sure this program is in a state where it can wait 3-4 years for players to pan out.

This program is in need of a major talent infusion. He is the guy that gives us the best chance at that. If he doesn't work out in 3 years, that's fine. I also believe that he will leave that talent situation on that side of the ball better than the staffs before him.

if i were an offensive coordinator, I would position myself as a recruiter first. great way to buy yourself lots of time when you don't know anything.

we are 100th in the country in yards per game against conference opponents.

we are 118th in the country in scoring per game against conference opponents

you have to do something with recruits once they're here. does anyone there know what they're doing with quarterbacks?

he's getting a pass because they scored a million pts against Wagner and Tulane.

A quarter of their offensive yards came against those two teams

If you set those games aside, (and you should because who gives a about whether we get 450 yards or 900 yards against Wagner) this is pariani bad

McDonald doesn't know what he's doing. He goes from place to place, never gains any mastery, he's basically a traveling salesman. This is why they have to take QB coach who needs to be down there teaching on the sideline and park him upstairs to babysit a guy who doesn't know anything.

This is an honest question - i don't know the answer. how many teams put a qb coach in the booth?

 

[CIL]

More tha

if i were an offensive coordinator, I would position myself as a recruiter first. great way to buy yourself lots of time when you don't know anything.

we are 100th in the country in yards per game against conference opponents.

we are 118th in the country in scoring per game against conference opponents

you have to do something with recruits once they're here. does anyone there know what they're doing with quarterbacks?

he's getting a pass because they scored a million pts against Wagner and Tulane.

A quarter of their offensive yards came against those two teams

If you set those games aside, (and you should because who gives a about whether we get 450 yards or 900 yards against Wagner) this is pariani bad

McDonald doesn't know what he's doing. He goes from place to place, never gains any mastery, he's basically a traveling salesman. This is why they have to take QB coach who needs to be down there teaching on the sideline and park him upstairs to babysit a guy who doesn't know anything.

This is an honest question - i don't know the answer. how many teams put a qb coach in the booth?

As to the first question, you would have to disregard the the best two performances of every team over the last decade. Would you reward the 2011 team for being consistently bad? Every season is gong to have statistical outliers, good and bad. And you kind of missed the point -- outside of last year, all our offenses have blown. Does it really matter if you are 95th or 88th in total O? We have had numerous coordinators, systems, etc over the years and the only correlation I can find is that our players for the most part have been sub standard on the offensive side of the ball.

As to the second, more than you think. Some OC's prefer it some they don't have to stare at coverages all day long, especially if they want to go no huddle. The Cowboys just did that this week against the Giants. That's not a deal breaker here or there to me.

It is crystal clear thus far that GMac isn't exactly Bobby Fisher up there. With ample talent though, I'm not sure he has to be.

 

[Millhouse]

More tha


As to the first question, you would have to disregard the the best two performances of every team over the last decade. Would you reward the 2011 team for being consistently bad? Every season is gong to have statistical outliers, good and bad. And you kind of missed the point -- outside of last year, all our offenses have blown. Does it really matter if you are 95th or 88th in total O? We have had numerous coordinators, systems, etc over the years and the only correlation I can find is that our players for the most part have been sub standard on the offensive side of the ball.

As to the second, more than you think. Some OC's prefer it some they don't have to stare at coverages all day long, especially if they want to go no huddle. The Cowboys just did that this week against the Giants. That's not a deal breaker here or there to me.

It is crystal clear thus far that GMac isn't exactly Bobby Fisher up there. With ample talent though, I'm not sure he has to be.

i posted the numbers somewhere else but i'll repost here

Conference Play PPG YPG
2013 12.9 332.7
2012 30.4 460.4
2011 20.9 353.1
2010 16.6 274.1
2009 17.3 330.4

 

[Millhouse]

More tha


As to the first question, you would have to disregard the the best two performances of every team over the last decade. Would you reward the 2011 team for being consistently bad? Every season is gong to have statistical outliers, good and bad. And you kind of missed the point -- outside of last year, all our offenses have blown. Does it really matter if you are 95th or 88th in total O? We have had numerous coordinators, systems, etc over the years and the only correlation I can find is that our players for the most part have been sub standard on the offensive side of the ball.

As to the second, more than you think. Some OC's prefer it some they don't have to stare at coverages all day long, especially if they want to go no huddle. The Cowboys just did that this week against the Giants. That's not a deal breaker here or there to me.

It is crystal clear thus far that GMac isn't exactly Bobby Fisher up there. With ample talent though, I'm not sure he has to be.

i don't understand why people who think it's so hard to recruit at SU thinks that some salesman is going to be a magic bullet.

are there other schools like us that have gotten it done with a recruiter with no idea what he's doing?

i don't like making a 5 year bet on a freaking coordinator.

 

[CIL]

So what your saying is that ex 2012 they've all sucked? Because that's exactly what I am saying. I also don't recall the BE having FSU and Clemson on the slate.

 

[Millhouse]

So what your saying is that ex 2012 they've all sucked? Because that's exactly what I am saying. I also don't recall the BE having FSU and Clemson on the slate.

I really like how all of a sudden you don't care about numbers and just generalize.

McDonald is worst in scoring offense and middle of the pack in yards in conference play going back to 2009.

 

[CIL]

Milly, I know you are better than this, I really do. Do you think that 2009, 2010, and 2011 SU football teams would have put up seasonal average numbers against a team like FSU? Do you think if you threw FSU in those conference schedules that it may, just may pull those numbers down a bit? I think you are a pretty bright guy so you can probably do the math.

Would you agree that outside of 2012, our offense has sucked for the better period of a decade? Yes or no?

 

[Millhouse]

Milly, I know you are better than this, I really do. Do you think that 2009, 2010, and 2011 SU football teams would have put up seasonal average numbers against a team like FSU? Do you think if you threw FSU in those conference schedules that it may, just may pull those numbers down a bit? I think you are a pretty bright guy so you can probably do the math.

Would you agree that outside of 2012, our offense has sucked for the better period of a decade? Yes or no

Of course I agree with that. but that wasn't your point and you know it. You even bolded it so we'd all know what your point was

FSU doesn't cause SU to get 208 yards against GT

if you take out FSU and Clemson (and why wouldn't we, clemson is better than anyone we played back then too), our yards per game in conference goes up by a whopping 5 yards. aka it's as if we got another 10 bubble screens per game and 3 extra punts

nice try. maybe we should throw out GT too. 200 yards. they are an all time amazing powerhouse opponent.

let's just throw out everything maybe

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

Nice Post. One point I would respectfully raise is that our scoring offense has retreated significantly, especially if you were to correct/adjust for the 54 and 52 outings against Wagner and Tulane. If you were to pull those games out or even adjust them, you'd find that our offense rivals that of the Robinson years in terms of scoring.

Pull out those two games and our offense would average 14.8 pts, which is the second worst of the 2004-2013 period you mentioned earlier.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Good post by CIL and I am willing to give Mcdonald at least another year. That being said the numbers Millhouse pointed out are staggering and hard to argue against. 12ppg in conference is abysmal.

 

[phil77]

I really like how all of a sudden you don't care about numbers and just generalize.

McDonald is worst in scoring offense and middle of the pack in yards in conference play going back to 2009.

My question to you is that a product of McDonald or the QB/WR's we have on the current roster?
Some games I see the QB miss wide open WR's for TD's?
Some games I see the WR's can't get any separation?
Some games I see us kill drives with penalties?
Some games I see the QB inaccurate on 5 yard slant passes?

 

[Millhouse]

My question to you is that a product of McDonald or the QB/WR's we have on the current roster?
Some games I see the QB miss wide open WR's for TD's?
Some games I see the WR's can't get any separation?
Some games I see us kill drives with penalties?
Some games I see the QB inaccurate on 5 yard slant passes?

for most of the year, i just threw my hands up and said what can you do with hunt?

but Hunt being so much better than he has been made it to wonder about McDonald

i'm with you on the slants. sometimes, i wonder if my tv is broken or if i am hallucinating. it's kinda like when you shank a chip off the hosel and the ball goes sideways and you have a moment of panic and confusion whatthehell..i ...huh?

 

[phil77]

for most of the year, i just threw my hands up and said what can you do with hunt?

but Hunt being so much better than he has been made it to wonder about McDonald

i'm with you on the slants. sometimes, i wonder if my tv is broken or if i am hallucinating. it's kinda like when you shank a chip off the hosel and the ball goes sideways and you have a moment of panic and confusion whatthehell..i ...huh?

Was Hunt that much better or did he just finally complete a couple deep balls against real comp? He missed them every other game and this game he finally hit them

 

[Millhouse]

Was Hunt that much better or did he just finally complete a couple deep balls against real comp? He missed them every other game and this game he finally hit them

uh, yes?

hitting deep balls counts