Thru my 19 years of life, still baffled

[We Are Syracuse]

By the absolute lack of bench depth year in and year out by syracuses basketball team...see so many lesser teams go nine deep and still win at a consistent level.. I knew The lack of bench development would come back to bite syracuses in the arse these past couple games and they have. Absolutely need to develope Roberson these next couple games because another option is needed while grant is injured and Coleman being out for the year really has hurt the cuse... Think the lack of bench depth is all on boeheim... he has the talent but is not willing to give them the chance... Many will say that this is always the way boeheim has been but the lack of bench play absolutely takes a toll on the players and it shows by the consistent drop off in late februarys... Love boeheim but he needs to develop more options on the bench early in the season to develop confidence and more options if there the team had injuries or goes on a slump.

 

[OrangeYaGladi]

What other top 10 teams go 9 deep?

 

[We Are Syracuse]

What other top 10 teams go 9 deep?

8... I meant to say 8.. Need two guards to come off the bench that acquire seperate skills. Like one who defends really well and a bench player who can shoot and score (Patterson) need more guys who are threats

 

[OrlandoCuse]

We have depth, they are just freshmen (JB doesn't play too many freshmen) or they are hurt (DC and Grant).

FWIW, UVA only played 7 in meaningful minutes today.

 

[OrangeYaGladi]

What other top 10 teams go 8 deep?

 

[We Are Syracuse]

What other top 10 teams go 8 deep?

Florida, Wichita State, Duke, KU, Nova, Creighton..

 

[We Are Syracuse]

We have depth, they are just freshmen (JB doesn't play too many freshmen) or they are hurt (DC and Grant).

FWIW, UVA only played 7 in meaningful minutes today.

exactly why I think Coleman injury really had impacted Syracuse. He was starting to play well and he provided more front court depth and was much more efficient in the pick and roll compared to keita

 

[kcsu]

good post i agree lack of playing patterson silent G and Roberson is hurting us

 

[Briancuse]

There is a thing as having too big of a rotation, You can still win with a 7 man rotation, the problem is injuries and foul trouble have been killing us lately.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

There is a thing as having too big of a rotation, You can still win with a 7 man rotation, the problem is injuries and foul trouble have been killing us lately.

Agree to a certain extent but people need to be ready just in case of injuries and foul trouble... Syracuse still sticks with 7 people regardless if they are out of position, etc

 

[Orangeyes]

What other top 10 teams go 9 deep?

Florida, Wichita State, Duke, KU, Nova, Creighton..

Decent playing time = 10 minutes or more

The #1 team Florida vs LSU 79-61 played 9 players decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a blow out)
Previous game vs Vandy 57-54 played 7 men decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a close game with 1 guy fouling out)
Previous game vs Ole Miss 75-71 played 7 men decent minutes Box (again reduced bench in close game)
Previous game vs Auburn 71-66 played 7 men decent minutes Box (once again reduced bench, close game)
Previous game vs Kentucky 69-59 played 7 men decent minutes Box
Previous game vs Tennessee 67-58 played 7 men decent minutes Box with 1 guy fouling out

Would it be fair to say in a close game Billy Donovan uses his bench pretty much the same as JB?

A look at Duke's last five games

Duke vs VPI 66-48 played 7 guys decent minutes in a blowout Box
vs Syracuse 66-60 played 7 guys decent minutes Box
vs UNC loss 66-74 played 8 decent minutes Box (5 players had 4 fouls)
vs G Tech 68-51 played 7 decent minutes Box
vs Maryland 69-67 played 7 decent minutes Box 1 player had 4 fouls

Here's a look at Kansas

Kansas vs Oklahoma St loss 65-72 played 7 decent PT Box (4 players with 4 fouls one with 3)
vs Oklahoma 83-75 Box played 8 decent time
vs Texas 85-54 played 8 decent time Box
vs Texas Tech 64-63 played 7 decent time Box
vs TCU 95-65 played 8 decent PT
vs K State loss 82-85 OT played 8 decent PT Box 2 players fouled out

A look at Villanova

vs Buler 67-48 Nine with decent PT in a blowout Box
vs St John's 57-54 Box 7 with decent PT
vs Providence 82-79 2OT 7 with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs Creighton loss 80-101 played 8 decent PT Box i fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs DePaul 87-62 played 9 decent PT in blowout Box

A look at Creighton

vs Xavier loss 69-75 played 8 decent PT Box 2 players 4 fouls
vs Seton Hall 72-71 played 7 decent PT Box
vs Marquette 84-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs Villanova 101-80 Nine with decent time in a blowout Box
vs Butler 68-63 played 8 decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs St John's loss 65-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out

Finally a look at Wichita St

vs Missouri St 68-45 Nine in a blowout Box
vs Bradley 69-49 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Drake 83-54 played 10 decent PT Box
vs Loyola 88-74 Nine with decent PT Box
vs Evansville 84-68 Eight with decent PT Box

all of the above were pretty much blowouts

here's how the Shockers used their bench in close games

vs St Louis 70-65 Seven with decent PT Box
vs Alabama 72-67 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Missouri St 72-69 OT Six with decent PTBox

In conclusion it looks like in tight games other teams use their bench pretty much like JB does
It looks like they use more when they have foul trouble as would be expected.
None of the above teams go 9 deep in close game

 

[cliftonparksufan]

There is a thing as having too big of a rotation, You can still win with a 7 man rotation, the problem is injuries and foul trouble have been killing us lately.

Not to mention that a certain backup center laid an egg yesterday.

 

[Orangeyes]

Florida, Wichita State, Duke, KU, Nova, Creighton..

Not to mention that a certain backup center laid an egg yesterday.

I'd rather he be laying an egg than be through for the season.

 

[tptcuse]

Decent playing time = 10 minutes or more

The #1 team Florida vs LSU 79-61 played 9 players decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a blow out)
Previous game vs Vandy 57-54 played 7 men decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a close game with 1 guy fouling out)
Previous game vs Ole Miss 75-71 played 7 men decent minutes Box (again reduced bench in close game)
Previous game vs Auburn 71-66 played 7 men decent minutes Box (once again reduced bench, close game)
Previous game vs Kentucky 69-59 played 7 men decent minutes Box
Previous game vs Tennessee 67-58 played 7 men decent minutes Box with 1 guy fouling out

Would it be fair to say in a close game Billy Donovan uses his bench pretty much the same as JB?

A look at Duke's last five games

Duke vs VPI 66-48 played 7 guys decent minutes in a blowout Box
vs Syracuse 66-60 played 7 guys decent minutes Box
vs UNC loss 66-74 played 8 decent minutes Box (5 players had 4 fouls)
vs G Tech 68-51 played 7 decent minutes Box
vs Maryland 69-67 played 7 decent minutes Box 1 player had 4 fouls

Here's a look at Kansas

Kansas vs Oklahoma St loss 65-72 played 7 decent PT Box (4 players with 4 fouls one with 3)
vs Oklahoma 83-75 Box played 8 decent time
vs Texas 85-54 played 8 decent time Box
vs Texas Tech 64-63 played 7 decent time Box
vs TCU 95-65 played 8 decent PT
vs K State loss 82-85 OT played 8 decent PT Box 2 players fouled out

A look at Villanova

vs Buler 67-48 Nine with decent PT in a blowout Box
vs St John's 57-54 Box 7 with decent PT
vs Providence 82-79 2OT 7 with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs Creighton loss 80-101 played 8 decent PT Box i fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs DePaul 87-62 played 9 decent PT in blowout Box

A look at Creighton

vs Xavier loss 69-75 played 8 decent PT Box 2 players 4 fouls
vs Seton Hall 72-71 played 7 decent PT Box
vs Marquette 84-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs Villanova 101-80 Nine with decent time in a blowout Box
vs Butler 68-63 played 8 decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs St John's loss 65-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out

Finally a look at Wichita St

vs Missouri St 68-45 Nine in a blowout Box
vs Bradley 69-49 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Drake 83-54 played 10 decent PT Box
vs Loyola 88-74 Nine with decent PT Box
vs Evansville 84-68 Eight with decent PT Box

all of the above were pretty much blowouts

here's how the Shockers used their bench in close games

vs St Louis 70-65 Seven with decent PT Box
vs Alabama 72-67 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Missouri St 72-69 OT Six with decent PTBox

In conclusion it looks like in tight games other teams use their bench pretty much like JB does
It looks like they use more when they have foul trouble as would be expected.
None of the above teams go 9 deep in close game

Enough already with you and your facts.

 

[Jack Hall]

Decent playing time = 10 minutes or more

The #1 team Florida vs LSU 79-61 played 9 players decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a blow out)
Previous game vs Vandy 57-54 played 7 men decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a close game with 1 guy fouling out)
Previous game vs Ole Miss 75-71 played 7 men decent minutes Box (again reduced bench in close game)
Previous game vs Auburn 71-66 played 7 men decent minutes Box (once again reduced bench, close game)
Previous game vs Kentucky 69-59 played 7 men decent minutes Box
Previous game vs Tennessee 67-58 played 7 men decent minutes Box with 1 guy fouling out

Would it be fair to say in a close game Billy Donovan uses his bench pretty much the same as JB?

A look at Duke's last five games

Duke vs VPI 66-48 played 7 guys decent minutes in a blowout Box
vs Syracuse 66-60 played 7 guys decent minutes Box
vs UNC loss 66-74 played 8 decent minutes Box (5 players had 4 fouls)
vs G Tech 68-51 played 7 decent minutes Box
vs Maryland 69-67 played 7 decent minutes Box 1 player had 4 fouls

Here's a look at Kansas

Kansas vs Oklahoma St loss 65-72 played 7 decent PT Box (4 players with 4 fouls one with 3)
vs Oklahoma 83-75 Box played 8 decent time
vs Texas 85-54 played 8 decent time Box
vs Texas Tech 64-63 played 7 decent time Box
vs TCU 95-65 played 8 decent PT
vs K State loss 82-85 OT played 8 decent PT Box 2 players fouled out

A look at Villanova

vs Buler 67-48 Nine with decent PT in a blowout Box
vs St John's 57-54 Box 7 with decent PT
vs Providence 82-79 2OT 7 with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs Creighton loss 80-101 played 8 decent PT Box i fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs DePaul 87-62 played 9 decent PT in blowout Box

A look at Creighton

vs Xavier loss 69-75 played 8 decent PT Box 2 players 4 fouls
vs Seton Hall 72-71 played 7 decent PT Box
vs Marquette 84-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs Villanova 101-80 Nine with decent time in a blowout Box
vs Butler 68-63 played 8 decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs St John's loss 65-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out

Finally a look at Wichita St

vs Missouri St 68-45 Nine in a blowout Box
vs Bradley 69-49 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Drake 83-54 played 10 decent PT Box
vs Loyola 88-74 Nine with decent PT Box
vs Evansville 84-68 Eight with decent PT Box

all of the above were pretty much blowouts

here's how the Shockers used their bench in close games

vs St Louis 70-65 Seven with decent PT Box
vs Alabama 72-67 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Missouri St 72-69 OT Six with decent PTBox

In conclusion it looks like in tight games other teams use their bench pretty much like JB does
It looks like they use more when they have foul trouble as would be expected.
None of the above teams go 9 deep in close game

Good post! How many of those teams have three starters (and their best three players) who were consistently playing 37-40 mins every game? And that doesnt count the two ot games...its nice to quote stats but sometimes we just have to watch the game. We were fine against vu in 1st half, couldnt hang w them in second half. We had a 12 point lead against maryland in second half and nearly blew that lead, and i have never seen our team bent over and grabbing their shorts the way we did against maryland in second half. Blew a 13 pt lead against bc in second half. This team is a little gassed. Right now its a combination of a thin bench and then Grants injury pushed us over the edge.

 

[Jack Hall]

Decent playing time = 10 minutes or more

The #1 team Florida vs LSU 79-61 played 9 players decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a blow out)
Previous game vs Vandy 57-54 played 7 men decent minutes Box (that is minutes in a close game with 1 guy fouling out)
Previous game vs Ole Miss 75-71 played 7 men decent minutes Box (again reduced bench in close game)
Previous game vs Auburn 71-66 played 7 men decent minutes Box (once again reduced bench, close game)
Previous game vs Kentucky 69-59 played 7 men decent minutes Box
Previous game vs Tennessee 67-58 played 7 men decent minutes Box with 1 guy fouling out

Would it be fair to say in a close game Billy Donovan uses his bench pretty much the same as JB?

A look at Duke's last five games

Duke vs VPI 66-48 played 7 guys decent minutes in a blowout Box
vs Syracuse 66-60 played 7 guys decent minutes Box
vs UNC loss 66-74 played 8 decent minutes Box (5 players had 4 fouls)
vs G Tech 68-51 played 7 decent minutes Box
vs Maryland 69-67 played 7 decent minutes Box 1 player had 4 fouls

Here's a look at Kansas

Kansas vs Oklahoma St loss 65-72 played 7 decent PT Box (4 players with 4 fouls one with 3)
vs Oklahoma 83-75 Box played 8 decent time
vs Texas 85-54 played 8 decent time Box
vs Texas Tech 64-63 played 7 decent time Box
vs TCU 95-65 played 8 decent PT
vs K State loss 82-85 OT played 8 decent PT Box 2 players fouled out

A look at Villanova

vs Buler 67-48 Nine with decent PT in a blowout Box
vs St John's 57-54 Box 7 with decent PT
vs Providence 82-79 2OT 7 with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs Creighton loss 80-101 played 8 decent PT Box i fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs DePaul 87-62 played 9 decent PT in blowout Box

A look at Creighton

vs Xavier loss 69-75 played 8 decent PT Box 2 players 4 fouls
vs Seton Hall 72-71 played 7 decent PT Box
vs Marquette 84-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out 2 with 4 fouls
vs Villanova 101-80 Nine with decent time in a blowout Box
vs Butler 68-63 played 8 decent PT Box 1 fouled out 1 with 4
vs St John's loss 65-70 Seven with decent PT Box 1 fouled out

Finally a look at Wichita St

vs Missouri St 68-45 Nine in a blowout Box
vs Bradley 69-49 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Drake 83-54 played 10 decent PT Box
vs Loyola 88-74 Nine with decent PT Box
vs Evansville 84-68 Eight with decent PT Box

all of the above were pretty much blowouts

here's how the Shockers used their bench in close games

vs St Louis 70-65 Seven with decent PT Box
vs Alabama 72-67 Eight with decent PT Box
vs Missouri St 72-69 OT Six with decent PTBox

In conclusion it looks like in tight games other teams use their bench pretty much like JB does
It looks like they use more when they have foul trouble as would be expected.
None of the above teams go 9 deep in close game

CJ and Ennis both played over 37 mins last night. None of virginias guys played that many. JB said it himself, CJ didnt have his legs against NCST , nothing has changed since.

 

[SWC75]

Here are the number of players who averaged 10 minutes played per game, (of the games they were available), and the team’s record in each year:

82-83 9 (21-10) 83-84 7 (23-9) 84-85 7 (22-9) 85-86 10 (26-6) 86-87 (31-7) 7 87-88 (26-9) 8 88-89 (30-8) 8 89-90 8 (26-7); 90-91 8 (26-6); 91-92 8 (22-10); 92-93 7 (20-9); 93-94 7 (23-7); 94-95 8 (20-10); 95-96 7 (29-9); 96-97 9 (19-13); 97-98 6 (26-9); 98-99 10 (21-12); 99-00 8 (26-6); 00-01 7 (25-9); 01-02 8 (23-13); 02-03 8 (30-5); 03-04 8 (23-8); 04-05 9 (27-7); 05-06 7 (23-12) 06-07 8 (24-11); 07-08 8 -before Devo got injured- But I think Ongenaet and Jardine might have averaged 10 minutes anyway (21-14), 08-09 8 (28-10), 09-10 7 (30-5). 10-11 8 (27-8), 11-12 9 (34-3) 12-13 9 (30-10)


Let’s look at this in a different form. These are the number of players who averaged 10 or more minutes and the team records, without regard to which year was involved:


10 players- 26-6, 21-12 Average: 24-9 Winning percentage: .723


9 players- 21-10, 19-13, 27-7, 34-3, 30-10 Average: 26-9. Winning percentage: .753


8 players- 26-9, 30-8, 26-7, 26-6, 22-10, 20-10, 26-6, 23-13, 30-5, 23-8, 24-11, 21-14, 29-10, 27-8 Average: 25-9. Winning percentage: .738


7 players- 23-9, 22-9, 31-7, 20-9, 23-7, 29-9, 25-9, 23-12, 30-5 Average: 25-8. Winning Percentage: .748


6 players- 26-9 Winning percentage: .743



Jim Boeheim has no “rule” about playing only 7 players. He averages 8. Most coaches do. Like most coaches, Jim plays everyone early and then goes with the guys who have shown him they can be relied upon to perform well in close games, whatever number of players that is. Generally, the fewer guys who get serious minutes, the better the record has been. When he uses a lot of players, he’s not trying to wear teams down or develop players for the future. He’s searching for answers.

 

[gmoney44]

If Colman wasn't out for the season SU would be at least 8 deep every game.

 

[pfister1]

It isn't the number of players in the rotation, its the mix that the number, whatever it is, brings to the rotation. So I don't think you can simply look at what another team is doing and say they play 7 we can play 7 or they play 8 we need to expand the rotation to 8.

You can get away with 7 if those 7 can be mixed and matched in such a way to give you effective lineups with everyone able to take rests during the game, or allow you to substitute for each player with an effective replacement in the case of injury or foul trouble.

The 7 we are playing this year does not give us that. We have problems when Tyler goes out (although MG has shown signs of being more capable lately). We also have big problems replacing either of our two forwards.

MG has become a better player of late, however he is kind of a square peg in a round hole as he isn't really a point guard and isn't a good enough shooter to be our only shooter on the floor. As a result he isn't really a great fit to be our only guard coming off of the bench.

Similarly Keita is our only frontcourt sub. Our offense is decent with our starting 5 healthy. It begins to bog down if you have to take Grant out of the mix...and it will really bog down if you take CJ out ..... especially if Cooney is struggling to hit shots.

Yesterday in the second half we had a lineup of Gbinije, Cooney, Fair, Xmas & Keita - it was an offensive disaster and truth be told it didn't look nearly as good on the defensive end as it should have. So it isn't the number of players in the rotation, its what the players in the rotation bring when put together in that rotation.

Our rotation is missing

(i) a second guard that can be a solid lead guard;
(ii) an offensive spark off the bench;
(iii) a third forward that can provide any real offense;
(iv) a second real shooter;

People, myself included, argue for playing more guys because we desperately want to see another piece to the puzzle that will help round out the rotation.

 

[pfister1]

If Colman wasn't out for the season SU would be at least 8 deep every game.

Going 8 deep with Coleman would not solve what ails our rotation.

 

[orangezen]

exactly why I think Coleman injury really had impacted Syracuse. He was starting to play well and he provided more front court depth and was much more efficient in the pick and roll compared to keita

and with a healthy DC Rak can play the 4 .. helps rebounding alot

 

[senorpalmer]

A 7 man rotation can work just fine if it's built right and 6 and 7 can play ~half a game. The problem with this 7 man rotation is that 2 guys are restricted to playing one position, leaving 5 guys to handle 4 spots on the floor. Gbinije is a useful player but he shouldn't be the only guy backing up 4 spots. Needed another guy to emerge, unfortunately for whatever reason it hasn't worked out.

 

[Czar]

The issue with our proposed 7 or 8 man rotations is that they don't solve our lack of backup forward. Two centers and a guard don't fix the rotation, Roberson should have been in the rotation between the 3 and the 4. Square peg round hole syndrome.

 

[RMH44]

Decent playing time = 10 minutes or more

Where did you come up with this equation? I'm not sure that the 8th or 9th player in a rotation needs ten minutes every game. Game situations dictate playing time and those players need to be ready when called upon.

No player can be effective, especially off the bench, when they know their first mistake will be their last. Tyler Roberson would be in the 8 man rotation at 99% of all college teams. Especially after a season ending injury to a player like Coleman. I actually feel for the kid because he knows that one miss step leads to a public, and most likely permanent, benching.

 

[SmilinBob]

There are a lot of good points made but one thing that needs to be looked at is when you are playing team X, Y, Or Z you have players that match up with them or give your team a needed boost/rest. Is it a jump shooter off the bench? A rebounder? A defensive guy that can cause some havoc? Boeheim used to match up the 7-9th guys in this type of thing but he has not been doing that this year. Let's also add if SU has to press...those guys legs were shot at the end of this game, if they had some rest maybe that spark would have been there. That goes for going for loose balls as well. My opinion is that Boeheim rode the horse hard straight to 25-0 and what worries me know is he might have to shoot him instead of on the way getting him water and having a couple of more losses/losing some time. You just can't sabermetrics this minute thing, it just isn't that black and white.