Timing could not have been worse.

[Crusty]

I try to remain balanced (it’s hard) when it comes to SU football because we are such a roller coaster program. We haven’t been consistently good (consistently competitive even) since the late 90’s. Think about that for a moment. So, when something like this pandemic hits it simply hits us harder than most. Not rationalization, just the truth.

In the last ten years, we are 62-78 for a .443 winning percentage. We have had only 4 winning seasons during this stretch. 2018 10-3 with bowl win Dino (ACC) ; 2013 7-6 with bowl win Shafer (ACC) ; 2012 8-5 with bowl win Marrone (Big East); and 2010 8-5 with bowl win Marrone (Big East)

Doug Marrone

Thankfully, Doug Marrone took us from the abyss to respectability and won a couple of good bowl games. Even though they weren’t all his recruits, he developed Justin Pugh, Chandler Jones, Ryan Nassib, Shamarko Thomas, Jay Bromley, Marcus Spruill, Riley Dixon, Doug Hogue, Mike Williams, Andrew Tiller, and Arthur Jones. Apologies to any I left out. Doug could coach ‘em up. He finished 25-25 for a .500 record. Many of us, including me, thought we were on our way back.

Scott Shafer

Then, Scott Shafer took a empty shelf and turned it into a 7-6 record and beat a decent Minnesota team in the Texas Bowl with Hunt as MVP. Shafer’s 1st recruiting class (2013) was tough as he had to piece together a class that Doug has largely recruited - Brisley Estime was a notable catch. However, the 2014 class (his 1st full class) yielded such players as Erv Phillips, Jamal Custis, Steve Ishmael, Chris Slayton, and Zaire Franklin. Then came the class of 2015 -19 with Eric Dungey, Dontae Strickland, Shy Cullen and Sterling Hofrichter.

Plagued by injuries including his starting QB and bowl MVP and most of his OLine, Shafer’s teams went 14-23 for .378. It seems to me it is not a big reach to find 4 more wins had we had eve normal injuries. That would have made him .500, the same as Marrone. Lest we forget, all of Shafer’s seasons were in the ACC and all of Marrone’s in the Big East. If we evaluate on the facts, it is hard to knock Shafer and elevate Doug and Dino way above him. Doug was 17-20 in his first three seasons for a .459 pct. While Doug arguably started from a lower level he also had some great players left over form little engine AND he played in the Big East. How that nets out is hard to say but difference can’t be huge.

Dino Babers

So far, after five seasons and two games Dino is 23-30 for .410 pct. Candidly, not much better than Shafer’s and not better recruiting (arguably worse). He sure did give us some excitment though.

I remain committed to Dino because he is a good coach and a great ambassador for SU. I also think he has some very promising Coordinators. I also think that BOTH Marrone and Shafer would have winning records had they lasted a couple of more years.

All are good coaches and it simply takes a great deal of time to get consistently good at this level. We just have to stay the course. The rejuvenated dome should help, and the new coordinators have to be given a fair shot. After all, they have been dealt a raw deal installing new systems in the midst of a pandemic. Most of our opponents did not have to face that daunting challenge.

Chances are this season could be a disaster – yeah a real disaster. We have endured worse, but we can’t keep throwing out good coaches, especially when they are good men.
Now is the time to simply let them do their jobs and see where we are next season. I think they will prove to be keepers.

 

[721Comstock]

One nit to pick:

Shafer’s recruiting classes were not REMOTELY as good as Dino’s.

First off - the only reason that any of them were ranked as “high” as they were, was each class had 1-3 academic and/or character reaches that boosted the rankings, but either never made it to campus (KJ Williams anyone?) or did squat while here.

How many undersized “hard nosed” diamonds in the rough did they recruit.
Answer - ALL of them.

Do you remember our smurf DB’s running around like a Benny Hill sketch vs FSU?
Or their players playing hangman on the sideline, because the game was so far out of hand?

His last class (which then mostly disbanded when he got canned) would have been atrocious.
Dino kept Rex, Scoop, and Moe Neal - all the Rest went to NON-P5 programs.
That says it all.

Most of our guys now and lately have multiple P5 offers, except for camp guys - and those have often worked out VERY well for us.

Shafer used to have to beat out Akron for ‘croots.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Great to see you, Crusty . I hope you're well.

 

[Crusty]

One nit to pick:

Shafer’s recruiting classes were not REMOTELY as good as Dino’s.

First off - the only reason that any of them were ranked as “high” as they were, was each class had 1-3 academic reaches that boosted the rankings, but either never made it to campus (KJ Williams anyone?) or did squat while here.

How many undersized “hard nosed” diamonds in the rough did they recruit.
Answer - ALL of them.

Do you remember our smurf DB’s running around like a Benny Hill sketch vs FSU?
Or their players playing hangman on the sideline, because the game was so far out of hand?

His last class (which then mostly disbanded when he got canned) would have been atrocious.
Dino kept Rex, Scoop, and Moe Neal - all the Rest went to NON-P5 programs.
That says it all.

Most of our guys now and lately have multiple P5 offers, except for camp guys - and those have often worked out VERY well for us.

Shafer used to have to beat out Akron for ‘croots.

Well, I thought I would get pushback on that but he brought in the best skill players of all three coaches including the best one of all. I wonder how many of Dino's would wind up in the FCS.

Dino's big season was with Shafer's guys. Not trying to belittle Dino's effort but fair is fair. Who do we really have that are as good as Shafer's best ones?

 

[Shenexon]

I try to remain balanced (it’s hard) when it comes to SU football because we are such a roller coaster program. We haven’t been consistently good (consistently competitive even) since the late 90’s. Think about that for a moment. So, when something like this pandemic hits it simply hits us harder than most. Not rationalization, just the truth.

In the last ten years, we are 62-78 for a .443 winning percentage. We have had only 4 winning seasons during this stretch. 2018 10-3 with bowl win Dino (ACC) ; 2013 7-6 with bowl win Shafer (ACC) ; 2012 8-5 with bowl win Marrone (Big East); and 2010 8-5 with bowl win Marrone (Big East)

Doug Marrone

Thankfully, Doug Marrone took us from the abyss to respectability and won a couple of good bowl games. Even though they weren’t all his recruits, he developed Justin Pugh, Chandler Jones, Ryan Nassib, Shamarko Thomas, Jay Bromley, Marcus Spruill, Riley Dixon, Doug Hogue, Mike Williams, Andrew Tiller, and Arthur Jones. Apologies to any I left out. Doug could coach ‘em up. He finished 25-25 for a .500 record. Many of us, including me, thought we were on our way back.

Scott Shafer

Then, Scott Shafer took a empty shelf and turned it into a 7-6 record and beat a decent Minnesota team in the Texas Bowl with Hunt as MVP. Shafer’s 1st recruiting class (2013) was tough as he had to piece together a class that Doug has largely recruited - Brisley Estime was a notable catch. However, the 2014 class (his 1st full class) yielded such players as Erv Phillips, Jamal Custis, Steve Ishmael, Chris Slayton, and Zaire Franklin. Then came the class of 2015 -19 with Eric Dungey, Dontae Strickland, Shy Cullen and Sterling Hofrichter.

Plagued by injuries including his starting QB and bowl MVP and most of his OLine, Shafer’s teams went 14-23 for .378. It seems to me it is not a big reach to find 4 more wins had we had eve normal injuries. That would have made him .500, the same as Marrone. Lest we forget, all of Shafer’s seasons were in the ACC and all of Marrone’s in the Big East. If we evaluate on the facts, it is hard to knock Shafer and elevate Doug and Dino way above him. Doug was 17-20 in his first three seasons for a .459 pct. While Doug arguably started from a lower level he also had some great players left over form little engine AND he played in the Big East. How that nets out is hard to say but difference can’t be huge.

Dino Babers

So far, after five seasons and two games Dino is 23-30 for .410 pct. Candidly, not much better than Shafer’s and not better recruiting (arguably worse). He sure did give us some excitment though.

I remain committed to Dino because he is a good coach and a great ambassador for SU. I also think he has some very promising Coordinators. I also think that BOTH Marrone and Shafer would have winning records had they lasted a couple of more years.

All are good coaches and it simply takes a great deal of time to get consistently good at this level. We just have to stay the course. The rejuvenated dome should help, and the new coordinators have to be given a fair shot. After all, they have been dealt a raw deal installing new systems in the midst of a pandemic. Most of our opponents did not have to face that daunting challenge.

Chances are this season could be a disaster – yeah a real disaster. We have endured worse, but we can’t keep throwing out good coaches, especially when they are good men.
Now is the time to simply let them do their jobs and see where we are next season. I think they will prove to be keepers.

I appreciate your perspective, Crusty. With all of the negative opinions and emotions being aired, we do need perspective. History makes Pasqualoni look pretty damn good, though many thought him past his prime. So much depends on perspective. I do hope that Dino finds a path and that young Mr. Devito can relax enough to perform the way we all want him to. It's a tough year in so many ways. Let's celebrate the recreated dome, Boeheim's last runs at a National Championship, and what we can of football. It's sad to have a decent defense in a year the offense is struggling mightily, but it's not over until it's over. Best Wishes to the Crustys!

 

[Crusty]

Great to see you, Crusty . I hope you're well.

Thanks. Hope all is well with you. Been very busy. New grandson, moved to the beach and started a new biz to keep busy. All good.

 

[721Comstock]

Well, I thought I would get pushback on that but he brought in the best skill players of all three coaches including the best one of all. I wonder how many of Dino's would wind up in the FCS.

Dino's big season was with Shafer's guys. Not trying to belittle Dino's effort but fair is fair. Who do we really have that are as good as Shafer's best ones?

How about the ALL AMERICAN SAFETY & KICKER??

 

[bigmike]

Whenever I think of FHCSS I picture Lamar Jackson hurdling one of the diminutive db’s he brought in. I cannot shake the image.

 

[Crusty]

How about the ALL AMERICAN SAFETY & KICKER??

Of course, but so far, that doesn't compare with Dungey and the others. I am hopeful, we will see better players, epecially with coaches with recruitng chops.

 

[Crusty]

Whenever I think of FHCSS I picture Lamar Jackson hurdling one of the diminutive db’s he brought in. I cannot shake the image.

Actually, that might have been Cordy he leapfrogged. Jackson is embarrassing NFL players so I feel better about that play now.

 

[721Comstock]

Of course, but so far, that doesn't compare with Dungey and the others. I am hopeful, we will see better players, epecially with coaches with recruitng chops.

That’s an opinion.

Yes - Dungey has been the most impactful “recruit” of the past half dozen years, since QB is by far the most important position to get right. So stipulated.

The Andre’s winning NATIONAL honors is kind of a big deal. You can’t dismiss or discount that.
Which is more than any Shafer guy ever did.
(And I love me some Z and Riley - this is in no way to diminish their contributions)

Thankfully, Dino’s story isn’t finished.
Shafer’s is. Equally thankfully.
Super nice guy, quality human, solid DC.
Totally out of his depth as a HC.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The truth is, until we consistently get guys drafted and sticking in the NFL that aren't just punters, the talent level is not where it needs to be.

 

[Crusty]

That’s an opinion.

Yes - Dungey has been the most impactful “recruit” of the past half dozen years, since QB is by far the most important position to get right. So stipulated.

The Andre’s winning NATIONAL honors is kind of a big deal. You can’t dismiss or discount that.
Which is more than any Shafer guy ever did.
(And I love me some Z and Riley - this is in no way to diminish their contributions)

Thankfully, Dino’s story isn’t finished.
Shafer’s is. Equally thankfully.
Super nice guy, quality human, solid DC.
Totally out of his depth as a HC.

To be clear, they are great players and I expect Cisco to go in the first 3 or 4 rounds and have a great NFL career. And by the way, I was just looking at the facts not opinion in my comparisons. Anyway, that's what makes markets!

 

[CuseMan4]

Ahhhh only if we had the oline and running game that we had under Marrone, the Shafer defenses under Marrone and the offense of 2018. Take a little from each coach and we are golden lol

 

[CanadianSU]

I agree and it makes it hard to dislike Dino Babers. He is such a great guy and he is getting a pass this year... in what appears to almost certainly be heading to a losing season.

however, in the end it is a business and it’s about results and wins. If he cannot achieve them next year and the season goes how this one is likely heading I will want to move on.

till then I wait. But what matters is wins.

 

[TheCusian]

Well, I thought I would get pushback on that but he brought in the best skill players of all three coaches including the best one of all. I wonder how many of Dino's would wind up in the FCS.

Dino's big season was with Shafer's guys. Not trying to belittle Dino's effort but fair is fair. Who do we really have that are as good as Shafer's best ones?

This argument is tough. The 10 win season was with a mix of SS and Babers guys. How many do they win without Cisco’s INTs or Smyzt’s groza level kicking?