To be fair to JGIII... We should talk about Buddy...

MikeSU02

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I've been very hard on JGIII, fairly I believe.

But I want to just point out something to be fair to him, because I don't think it's really a Kadary v JGIII thing anymore, I think it's clear Kadary should start at PG. JGIII should spell Buddy and those two should probably even out in time.

JB said we are a shooting team. I've said we are a team that shoots. After last night we are:
178th in FG%
221st in 3PT%

That's terrible.

Back to JGIII and Buddy.

Again, I've been hard on JGIII, here are his stats:
31.1 MPG (but had been trending down)
31% FG, 32% 3PT (he is UNDER 30% for 2 PT FGs which is crazy)
11.0 PER (dead last out of the seven guys that mostly play)
42% eFG
46% TS (remember, this takes into account FTs)
10.9 FGA/game (third on team)

Those are all bad for someone +30 MPG. We've established this between stats and eye test. He is either last or second to last in those percentages for the seven guys that play (so counting Woody, not counting Bras, but maybe that changes going forward).

However, my contention is not only should Kadary start, but JGIII should recoup some of his lost minutes to Buddy playing off ball. Why you say? Well, Buddy has been pretty awful this year. You can make the case he's been worse than JGIII, or at least hasn't had his playing time impacted as much.

Buddy:
34.0 MPG (2nd on team)
33% FG, 24% 3PT
11.6 PER (second to last... note, the player above Buddy here out of the seven that I'm counting is Marek at 19.5. There is an Atlantic Ocean sized span between Buddy/Joe and the rest of the guys in PER)
39% eFG
42% TS
15.6 FGA/game (First on team, 2.6 more than Alan "Dion Waiters confidence" Griffin and almost a full SEVEN more FGA/game than Quincy who is shooting 66% from the field)

Should Kadary start over JGIII? Yes. Should JGIII never play? No. He should get some of Buddy's minutes because Buddy is having one of the most inefficient and, to put it bluntly, terrible years to date.

Those numbers for Buddy are awful. Anyone else we would be questioning if he should be playing... at all.

Again, I like Buddy. I think he would better served with Kadary at PG and playing fewer minutes. Our offense should probably be Kadary with the keys and running it through Q and Marek, going inside out, rather than being a shooting team.
 

Newhouser

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I've been very hard on JGIII, fairly I believe.

But I want to just point out something to be fair to him, because I don't think it's really a Kadary v JGIII thing anymore, I think it's clear Kadary should start at PG. JGIII should spell Buddy and those two should probably even out in time.

JB said we are a shooting team. I've said we are a team that shoots. After last night we are:
178th in FG%
221st in 3PT%

That's terrible.

Back to JGIII and Buddy.

Again, I've been hard on JGIII, here are his stats:
31.1 MPG (but had been trending down)
31% FG, 32% 3PT (he is UNDER 30% for 2 PT FGs which is crazy)
11.0 PER (dead last out of the seven guys that mostly play)
42% eFG
46% TS (remember, this takes into account FTs)
10.9 FGA/game (third on team)

Those are all bad for someone +30 MPG. We've established this between stats and eye test. He is either last or second to last in those percentages for the seven guys that play (so counting Woody, not counting Bras, but maybe that changes going forward).

However, my contention is not only should Kadary start, but JGIII should recoup some of his lost minutes to Buddy playing off ball. Why you say? Well, Buddy has been pretty awful this year. You can make the case he's been worse than JGIII, or at least hasn't had his playing time impacted as much.

Buddy:
34.0 MPG (2nd on team)
33% FG, 24% 3PT
11.6 PER (second to last... note, the player above Buddy here out of the seven that I'm counting is Marek at 19.5. There is an Atlantic Ocean sized span between Buddy/Joe and the rest of the guys in PER)
39% eFG
42% TS
15.6 FGA/game (First on team, 2.6 more than Alan "Dion Waiters confidence" Griffin and almost a full SEVEN more FGA/game than Quincy who is shooting 66% from the field)

Should Kadary start over JGIII? Yes. Should JGIII never play? No. He should get some of Buddy's minutes because Buddy is having one of the most inefficient and, to put it bluntly, terrible years to date.

Those numbers for Buddy are awful. Anyone else we would be questioning if he should be playing... at all.

Again, I like Buddy. I think he would better served with Kadary at PG and playing fewer minutes. Our offense should probably be Kadary with the keys and running it through Q and Marek, going inside out, rather than being a shooting team.
This is very well done - accurate, fair and the Dion confidence line is great. Buddy and Joe and Kadary should be playing equal minutes with per game minutes based on performance for that particular game. We all know that is not going to happen. Buddy is playing 35 and taking his shots no matter what. Also people will be defending both as good shooters Saturday after we drub a hapless Hoya squad. You are right regarding our shooters, we have the will, but sadly most of the time there is no way they are going in.
 
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Cusefan0307

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One player has a much better track record and history than the other. That needs to be taken into account.
 

MSOrange

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Buddy wasn't good either yesterday but at least his shot selection is good, I haven't seen a player in sometime with worse shot selection as Girard.

To the original poster's point, Buddy absolutely needs to shoot better. But I agree, a couple may have been quick but overall I didn't think it was horrible shot selection by him.
 

capeorange

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I was yelling at my tv last night at times to give Joe a seat and get Kadary in the game. Unfortunately, Boeheim couldn't hear me. It's aggravating.

I was yelling along with you. Time and time again Joe is a run killer. It seems like whenever we start to expand our lead late in a game he launches a wild shot or crazy pass and then allows a wide open 3 at the other end.
 

sugrad68

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I too agree with the comments on Buddy. He improved greatly from year 1 to year 2 but his shooting this year has regressed for whatever reasons. It’s not like he isn’t getting good shots. He just isn’t hitting them. His defense is not great but much better than Girard. If BB doesn’t improve his shooting this team has little chance to be successful.
 

MikeSU02

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One player has a much better track record and history than the other. That needs to be taken into account.

So, I would say one player has a better, not much better, track record. And, to be fair to JGIII again, when you are handling the ball and volume shooting, that is harder than just playing off ball, especially since Buddy isn't making defenses chase him around.

But, yes, you are correct. Buddy's track record is better than JGIII.
 

Cusefan0307

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So, I would say one player has a better, not much better, track record. And, to be fair to JGIII again, when you are handling the ball and volume shooting, that is harder than just playing off ball, especially since Buddy isn't making defenses chase him around.

But, yes, you are correct. Buddy's track record is better than JGIII.

Ok I'll give you that. The coaches should not allow that shot selection at all. And for the record Griffins is as bad as Girard at times from a shot selection standpoint. But as far as it not being close, Buddy career efg% is 54%. Girards is 44. I have much more confidence that Buddy will start making shots he's missed going forward than Girard will.
 

Newhouser

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And Griffin may take worse shots than anyone I have seen. He is not immune here because he made his first few.
 

MikeSU02

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Ok I'll give you that. The coaches should not allow that shot selection at all. And for the record Griffins is as bad as Girard at times from a shot selection standpoint. But as far as it not being close, Buddy career efg% is 54%. Girards is 44. I have much more confidence that Buddy will start making shots he's missed going forward than Girard will.

Agreed. I think Buddy would benefit a TON riding shotgun with Kadary, as well.
 

MikeSU02

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And Griffin may take worse shots than anyone I have seen. He is not immune here because he made his first few.

That's fair. He's second on the team in shots. But to be fair to him:

44% FG
38% 3PT
58% TS
55 eFG%
20.4 PER

That substantially better than either Buddy or JGIII this year.

However, with that said, he should not try to be a cross between Dion and Elvir Ovcina.
 

dasher

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People might not have noticed that Pitt backed off Kadray by quite a bit. And that also hurt his passing because no one had to leave their man to help Kadrays man because Kadrays man was playing so far off of him. I think Kadray should start and play more. But let's not kid ourselves, there is a problem with him too.
 

syrBossHogg

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I think Buddy will shoot better but yeah I agree he needs to pick it up and shouldn't play that much until he does, although that second part is wishful thinking
 

MikeSU02

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People might not have noticed that Pitt backed off Kadray by quite a bit. And that also hurt his passing because no one had to leave their man to help Kadrays man because Kadrays man was playing so far off of him. I think Kadray should start and play more. But let's not kid ourselves, there is a problem with him too.

I don't think it's a problem. I think it's allowing the offense to function with him at the helm. Yes, teams will sag off of him. That's fine. He's still a much, much, much better option than the situation we have now.

Again, I'm not saying this because I think Kadary is Jason Kidd. Kadary has natural gifts on defense, has size, can make smaller guys pay and can take guys off the dribble and has the length to finish closer to the rim.

Is he perfect? No. Is using him more as part of the equation to be better than two guys who are volume shooters that pull shots away from our actual efficient players in Marek and Q and are also terrible on D? Yes.

It's not just "this guy is better than that guy". It's that JB has us set up to be a shooting team and we just aren't. At least not like we are structured now.

So, sure, Kadary isn't perfect. But the percentages mixed with volume of shooting that our current back court has the green light for is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous. Teams want those guys to shoot. That is how bad they are shooting. It's essentially a live ball turnover.
 

Wrinkle

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I'm a big fan of PER, it nearly always corroborates what you see with your eyes. In the case of Joe, we don't need PER or any advanced stats. The dude is shooting 31% from the field. He needs to sit
 

OttoinGrotto

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I don't think it's a problem. I think it's allowing the offense to function with him at the helm. Yes, teams will sag off of him. That's fine. He's still a much, much, much better option than the situation we have now.

Again, I'm not saying this because I think Kadary is Jason Kidd. Kadary has natural gifts on defense, has size, can make smaller guys pay and can take guys off the dribble and has the length to finish closer to the rim.

Is he perfect? No. Is using him more as part of the equation to be better than two guys who are volume shooters that pull shots away from our actual efficient players in Marek and Q and are also terrible on D? Yes.

It's not just "this guy is better than that guy". It's that JB has us set up to be a shooting team and we just aren't. At least not like we are structured now.

So, sure, Kadary isn't perfect. But the percentages mixed with volume of shooting that our current back court has the green light for is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous. Teams want those guys to shoot. That is how bad they are shooting. It's essentially a live ball turnover.
Also... one way for us to beat Kadary's guy giving him space is to get in transition.
 

dasher

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I don't think it's a problem. I think it's allowing the offense to function with him at the helm. Yes, teams will sag off of him. That's fine. He's still a much, much, much better option than the situation we have now.

Again, I'm not saying this because I think Kadary is Jason Kidd. Kadary has natural gifts on defense, has size, can make smaller guys pay and can take guys off the dribble and has the length to finish closer to the rim.

Is he perfect? No. Is using him more as part of the equation to be better than two guys who are volume shooters that pull shots away from our actual efficient players in Marek and Q and are also terrible on D? Yes.

It's not just "this guy is better than that guy". It's that JB has us set up to be a shooting team and we just aren't. At least not like we are structured now.

So, sure, Kadary isn't perfect. But the percentages mixed with volume of shooting that our current back court has the green light for is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous. Teams want those guys to shoot. That is how bad they are shooting. It's essentially a live ball turnover.
I think that is what I said. By the way, I think we are a better shooting team than we have showed.
 

MikeSU02

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I'm a big fan of PER, it nearly always corroborates what you see with your eyes. In the case of Joe, we don't need PER or any advanced stats. The dude is shooting 31% from the field. He needs to sit

Yeah, I'll say one more thing that isn't couched in stats regarding JGIII - I think he's shook at this point. That dude had carte blanche in high school, got the starting gig early in his frosh season here and then kept it going into this year.

Him shooting a lot has just been his M.O. And, in HS, I'm sure he had the greenest of all green lights.

With Kadary taking some mpg from him and clearly having some abilities that he doesn't have WITH JB reducing his time in some games... I'm not sure if this has literally ever happened to him in any sport, ever.

The thing about the last play, everyone is talking about JGIII being stationary, essentially. For better or worse, when was the last time you saw that? When was the last time you were worried JGIII was scared to take a shot?

I think JGIII is in a weird space right now. He's shooting poorly, he knows it, he can't get out of the funk, Kadary is right on his heels, his back court mate is shooting terribly but is the coach's son and we are 6-2 with some close calls to some other teams we should have routinely beaten.

This goes back to what I wish JGIII would be, bench guard that spells Kadary, but really spells Buddy at the 2 and JB sends him sprinting all around on O around screens to make the D chase him to get him open so he can focus on shooting. Forget initiating the offense, forget handling a press D, forget trying to make an entry pass over a guy that is 4" taller than you. Come in, play a little less, but work to get better shots that you can focus on. Stop trying to be a swiss army knife. Just be the guy that has four spots on the floor you love to shoot from, let's get you the ball in your shooting pocket on your curl and you aim and fire.
 

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