Too Much Scoop

[realorange]

JB will play his 3 guard rotation and ride the two who are hot that night. As he said in his presser, Dion and BT played the most in NYC and Scoop cheered them all the way, said nothing nor did he even come to JB in his office to complain.

Last night, Scoop and BT were the pair that worked. I don't care what Scoop's shots looked like. They worked! There are no style points in BB. If Scoops shots weren't going in, Dion would have been on the floor. But they did and he didn't.

Bilas and JB both said in one way or another that if it weren't for Scoop, SU loses.

 

[CorduroyG]

JB will play his 3 guard rotation and ride the two who are hot that night. As he said in his presser, Dion and BT played the most in NYC and Scoop cheered them all the way, said nothing nor did he even come to JB in his office to complain.

Last night, Scoop and BT were the pair that worked. I don't care what Scoop's shots looked like. They worked! There are no style points in BB. If Scoops shots weren't going in, Dion would have been on the floor. But they did and he didn't.

Bilas and JB both said in one way or another that if it weren't for Scoop, SU loses.

True about the 3 guard rotation, but i have a feeling BT will be the mainstay of the 3 in crunch time just cause he seems to be the most steady. Triche and whoever is playing better between scoop and dion.

 

[Rossco123]

The real difference between Scoop and Dion is maturity. Right now when quick meets quick, Dion has an excellent handle and very little else. He is very much like Scoop in his second year. We won't find out what he has until he is a senior.

 

[Ghost]

Not really looking to bash Scoop after he was crucial in the huge win. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that I do not want to continually see us dependent on Scoop heaving up that junk in order to beat top teams. While I am certain I would not have spent as much time on it, I agree with fanfan's basic opinion that we are not in good shape if you project what happened last night, over the course of the year.

To me... four plays summarize my mindset when it comes to this point. Two layups by Dion and two layups by Scoop. Scoop's were ridiculous, horrible, and ugly, yet they went in. Dion's were aggressive, featured athleticism and explosion, but missed. I will take Dion's drives everyday of the week despite the misses. Chances are, he will make it, he will get fouled, possibly even have a good chance of getting an "and-one," or the trailer has a good look at the bucket. Good things happen when you take it to the hole, and on cue both misses were put back by trailers because it took two or three defenders to challenge Dion. Dion makes those shots, he is 3/8. Scoop misses his circus layups, he's 4/10..... People can say "if" "if" "if"... but playing the odds going forward, you'd be a fool to take Scoop's shots over Dion's.

Scoop has always had a pretty unconventional game. If he had hit a few ugly runners yesterday and I had never seen him make those shots previously I would wholeheartedly agree with your point. It's his fifth year though, he makes those shots.

He makes a lot of those threes too. At the beginning of last year when we couldn't score against anyone he hit a heck of a lot of both types of shots. Obviously we don't want to be dependent on Scoop, and we aren't - he was getting reduced minutes up until yesterday. However, when the kid is playing well I don't really mind any of those shots. And when he isn't, he'll be on the bench.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

fanfan, I know you like Statistics, but I think you need a slightly better grasp on Variance (probably the key concept in Statistics). Most people know what variance is: in layman's terms, it's the inconsistency in results. One game a player will score 20, the next game he will score 2 (similar to JSouth's season so far). Once you start compiling statistics, you are going to come up with averages and percentages, but it's also important to look at Variance (which very few people actually do).

Now, here's the key concept: If you are a coach that can recognize individual variances during a game, you can continually play "the hot hand" to maximize your positive results. Think of it like a Sine curve that is going up and down. If you can constantly replace guys that are performing on the down side of the curve with guys that are performing on the upside of the curve, then you will reduce the negative results and maximize your efficiency. Very difficult thing to do, and it takes some intuition. I think JB said in is presser, he had a "feeling". Sometimes you have to go with your feelings.

That's a really good point. We all know that Scoop can go out there and put up 20 on anyone. With a high risk, high reward type guy, you want to be able to put yourself in a position to cash in some of that high reward: which is what JB did last night.

Obviously, deference to JB is a smart move. But if there is one thing I fear this season, it is that we will cement too many bad habits in these early season wins. I think we made that mistake last season with Scoop, and i don't want to repeat it.

As I see it, Southerland probably got more shots/minutes last night than MCW because JSouth lit up bad competition early this season. I don't want that same logic applying to Dion and Scoop later in the year, when we need to be polishing up our final four lineup.

Dion is obviously special and needs to play. Every minute we invest in a Triche/Dion backcourt is well invested.

If this Florida win ends up increasing Scoop's shots/possessions by 7-10%, over the course of the season, more than he otherwise would have gotten: I'd rather take the loss and stick with our all star lineup, with clearly defined roles suited to our best players. It's so important to have your stars play star roles.

But, if JB is simply using Scoop to lock up a nice regular season win, while JB knows to live or die with Triche/Waiters when it really matters, then I am fine with last night, and wouldn't want to diminish another onions performance for Scoop.

 

[dash-30-dash]

let's not put dion in springfield just yet. We will see more 1 for 8 games. We'll see some really great one's as well. Just as we will for scoop and bt.

 

[Victory Lap]

Why can't you people support the team and everyone on it? This crap makes the board a worse place.

Disagree. A long, in depth post raising legitimate questions should be welcomed (even if containing some flaws). Who wants a board full of lemmings?


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.747059,-84.357299

 

[fanfanclubclub]

The best thing about this Syracuse teams is that we have talented depth, that is capable of stepping up when our better players don't perform well.

I don't think we have great depth compared to our peers (UK, OSU, UNC). I think we are only 6 deep, hoping that Scoop or MCW step up as a 7th championship caliber guy.

imo, we appear to have great depth because two of our best 4 players come off the bench, and BMK is also an excellent sub. If we started our all star lineup (Melo, CJ, KJo, Waiters, Triche), our depth beyond BMK is not scaring UNC, Kentucky, et al, imo (Scoop, MCW, JSouth, XMas).

 

[fanfanclubclub]

There is no statistical value that can quantify the qualitative impact you get for a Philly guard who is in the zone. same with a NYC pg.. Walkers form is crap but he is a big time gamer.

That's pretty apt stuff. My arguments took a bit of a hit when Kemba the undersized gunner took UConn all the way.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

I don't think we have great depth compared to our peers (UK, OSU, UNC). I think we are only 6 deep, hoping that Scoop or MCW step up as a 7th championship caliber guy.

imo, we appear to have great depth because two of our best 4 players come off the bench, and BMK is also an excellent sub. If we started our all star lineup (Melo, CJ, KJo, Waiters, Triche), our depth beyond BMK is not scaring UNC, Kentucky, et al, imo (Scoop, MCW, JSouth, XMas).

First off, Kentucky really has no depth at all. They really only play 6 guys. They are a very young, super talented team, but depth is not one of their stronger assets.

UNC goes about 8 deep. That's about the same as us. I actually think our bench is better.

OSU only goes 7 deep. They don't have alot of depth.

MCW and Rak are young, but they will provide us with depth as the year goes on. JB is choosing to play them in spots where they can succeed. MSG and a game vs top 10 UF weren't the right places.

 

[Orangezoo]

kemba was a freak but even look at Erving walker from the gators.. He puts a lot of ugly stuff in the hoop but as a NYC kid that's just a good nights work. It's good you challenge the popular opinion statistically but like any complex problem you always have floating variables. In this case confidence, instinct and the ability to excel when the degree of difficulty is excessive cannot really be measured and translated into something as infinitesimal as minutes per game. At this point it's about situational performance. You have four guards with dynamic skill sets. Like a manager in baseball you can have the best possible strategy and personnel to close out and start a game and still fail. This is where you can't replace things like risk taking, confidence and experience. How many guys had the gumption of a gerry Mac to start gunning as a freshman in the Kansas game? that's just Gerry the player throw aside his percentages. He did it the year before in the pa state playoffs. It's always a gamble to play against the percentages but college hoops is so much more than statistical patterns and bell curves. If you are a math guy as well then you would agree that some vectors reach into an un measurable space... it's 4d good stuff though much more fun to argue bball

 

[Ghost]

I don't think we have great depth compared to our peers (UK, OSU, UNC). I think we are only 6 deep, hoping that Scoop or MCW step up as a 7th championship caliber guy.

imo, we appear to have great depth because two of our best 4 players come off the bench, and BMK is also an excellent sub. If we started our all star lineup (Melo, CJ, KJo, Waiters, Triche), our depth beyond BMK is not scaring UNC, Kentucky, et al, imo (Scoop, MCW, JSouth, XMas).

OSU, really? You don't think our 2 McD's, a 5th year senior PG Scoop Jardine, and JSouth aren't at least on par with OSU's depth?

Without looking can you name the four players you would put up against our four?

 

[OrlandoCuse]

If you are a math guy as well then you would agree that some vectors reach into an un measurable space... it's 4d good stuff though much more fun to argue bball

Once I started to study infinite dimensional space, my brain started to pop...and I really like linear algebra too.

I wonder if we can find some eigenvalues to apply to the Syracuse team??

 

[Orangezoo]

Lol right on Orlando Cuse I'm just glad I'm doing npv modeling now using pattern based data ... Statics and dynamics weren't my thing... hope all is well with you didn't notice till just now the former item

 

[kingottoiii]

Question what makes you think Triche can handle PG? Why did Triche sit on the bench the last 4 mins of every game his Fr year? Do you really want a PG that struggles with token pressure? Do you want a PG that doesn't make anyone around him better and has a bad A-TO ratio? There is a reason why when Scoop is out we run the O through KJ or Dion.

If you want to argue that Dion needs more PT, I am 110% with you. But Scoop is the only real PG we have. You need a guy like Scoop.

 

[dash-30-dash]

scoop was a key player on the team that was ranked #1 at the end of the season two years ago. That is a great guard to have as part of your 3 guard package.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Lol right on Orlando Cuse I'm just glad I'm doing npv modeling now using pattern based data ... Statics and dynamics weren't my thing... hope all is well with you didn't notice till just now the former item

Yeah, might go back to OrlandoCuse to avoid the confusion to all...still undecided. I don't live there anymore, though.

 

[timkay99]

As I see it, Southerland probably got more shots/minutes last night than MCW because JSouth lit up bad competition early this season. I don't want that same logic applying to Dion and Scoop later in the year, when we need to be polishing up our final four lineup.

Your wrong. Southerland got more shots/minutes last night then MCW b/c Florida is a pressure team. If MCW came in, Florida was going to press.

Having watched MCW against some lesser teams full court pressure him, I am glad JB didn't put him in to ensure no confidence issue came.

And Southerland and MCW don't compete against each other for minutes.

To say we don't want to be relying on Scoop is true.

To say Scoop isn't part of a championship rotation is just ed.

 

[OttoMets]

Disagree. A long, in depth post raising legitimate questions should be welcomed (even if containing some flaws). Who wants a board full of lemmings?

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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.747059,-84.357299

I hope no one wants a board full of lemmings.

But for the life of me I cannot figure out why there are people on a Syracuse board who don't like players on Syracuse's team and who have to come out of the woodwork and remind us of it, even after a good win.

The Scoop vs. Dion, Triche vs. Dion stuff is irritating. They're teammates who are working toward what most of us want to see - wins for our team.

The original poster's post is what it usually is: bashing Scoop for the sake of bashing Scoop with the alleged support of subjective arguments and baseless claims. Replace Scoop with Nassib and you see the same thing on the football board. It's old.

 

[SUSScuse]

definitely true. Scoop nailed the shots that won it. just wondering whether Waiters is soo good, that we need to ride him. also wondering if Scoop's shots are going to fall, in a more important context. but yea, Scoop hit the shots that beat Florida, definitely.

I am not saying "let's pretend Scoop missed the three," I am only saying, I worry that his track record suggests he may miss that 3 next time, and if Waiters plays Scoop's minutes, I doubt we need that 3.

Dion misses that three last night.....he couldn't buy one!

 

[SUSScuse]

I am not pretending that Waiters did anything good last night. I didn't see him do anything good.

But let's not get too caught up in a snap shot, narrow perspective: we have large samples sizes that demonstrate, without a doubt, that Waiters is a much better player (and I'm not only speaking about this year). Waiter's efficiency was even better than Scoop's last year. We hurt ourselves last season by overrelying on Scoop, and that is our biggest potential pit fall this season.

It is obvious that Waiters is a star. Sometimes stars have rough starts, like Dion last night. Scoop is not a star. He is just a very enjoyable, good college guard who has onions and can hit shots against anyone, but struggles to run the point. Since we have two star guards including a true point, and two star wings (Joseph and Fair), it's hard to find a ton of minutes for Scoop. I'm not a big fan of riding the hot hand, but JB knows what he is doing, and obviously he went with Scoop last night.

I very much object to the idea that all fans must support all the players' respective roles at all times.

Sample size please? Scoop is a fifth year senior, Dion hasn't started his first game in orange yet. That is an example of who is winning the starting spot in itself.

 

[Cuse_MN]

>>Triche is our point guard. We look soooo much better with Triche running the half court offense. Not only does Triche make the quicker and more responsible passes, but he also gets to the line when he runs the point. Scoop is a liability at the line, he is too willing to shoot early in the clock, and makes too many boneheaded plays.

Scoop always gets "assists" because the Cuse is an amazing transition team. Many of Scoop's assists are easy transitions buckets where he simply executes the three man weave or some other quick, easy offense. Any of our guards could rack up assists playing the designated point guad spot. The only reason Triche didn't pile up assists his frosh year, is because Rautins actually played point man on so many of our transition breaks. Scoop very, very rarely creates offense for others in the half court: and it hurt us badly for most of the Florida game.>>

BT's frosh year is the only year we have to compare them both as pg's, but probably not fair given Scoop had a year until his belt by then but that first year was on the flynn, devo, greene, harris squad, so not like he learned much about running an offense that year with those gunners. They had almost equal minutes that year.

Assists/TO's
2009-2010 Scoop 151/67, BT 99/71 (Rautins had 171 assists)
2010-2011 Scoop 205/100, BT 100/72
2011-2012 Scoop 36/16, BT 28/17
Total. Scoop 392/183, BT 227/160
Cumulative A/TO. Scoop 2.25, BT 1.75

Scoop has about 100 more mins over the timeframe. Despite playing fewer mins this year, he has more assists and fewer turnovers. Scoop has surely had the ball in his hands for more minutes, but when BT did have the ball he managed to have 57% of Scoop's assists, but 87% of his TO's.

I like Brandon's game, especially this year. I think him continuing to knock down 3's in the high 30% range will be key for a title run. This is no knock on BT, but the stats above strongly argue he is sloppier with the ball and not as good a distributor of the ball in directed comparison to Scoop. Brandon is the only guard who looks comfortable as a catch and shoot 3-pt shooter. We need him to fill that role, but all three guards can bring the ball up the court and trigger the offense. I love what Dion is doing and don't deny your argument that Dion has more upside, but it is worth noting Scoop is shooting a better % from the field and from 3-pt range on the season, not to mention last season, so statistically, his "wild gunner shots" fall more often than Dion's better shots.

 

[orangefan13]

To much empahsis on point guard not enough on Ball movement.

One example. KJO was our PG in 09-10. You can argue SG, but he drove and either scored got to the line or passed in isolation off it.

A good example was when KJO, Triche Southerland Dion were all giving up open shots off of shot fakes and then Triche or Southerland knocked down the three after they passed it around the perimeter 5 times against EMU.

Ball movement creating spots is everything. Efficient scoring is everything. Not turning the ball over is everything. If you have those three then you don't even need a PG to be Number one.

Scoop played excellent because Fab stepped up. If Fab hadn't stepped up while KJO and Triche were being guarded tight then we would have been in a hole against Florida.

Something else you have to realize about this team. We aren't running scoring sets out of the high post. Even passing out of the high post is pretty rare for us. That means perimeter passes and passes back out to the perimeter are longer and that can be dangerous.

What this team needs IMO is scoring efficiency in Triangles and hopefully in quadralaterals by March. That is how you frustrate defenses. One positive about this team they don't get frustrated. Dion will get his moment. Little reason to play anyone but scoop at point against smaller PG's like EMU and Florida had. The perfect games for Scoop to shine.

Its like I said Scoop has to create offense without a high post/ perimeter pass 95% of the time. That what makes the difference from someone like Josh Wright and Billy Edelin or Jonny Flynn.

 

[The General]

I hope no one wants a board full of lemmings.

But for the life of me I cannot figure out why there are people on a Syracuse board who don't like players on Syracuse's team and who have to come out of the woodwork and remind us of it, even after a good win.

The Scoop vs. Dion, Triche vs. Dion stuff is irritating. They're teammates who are working toward what most of us want to see - wins for our team.

The original poster's post is what it usually is: bashing Scoop for the sake of bashing Scoop with the alleged support of subjective arguments and baseless claims. Replace Scoop with Nassib and you see the same thing on the football board. It's old.

Good point. And instead of convincing us why Southerland stinks and Scoop stinks, why not convince us why your alternative is so much better? I'm gonna go ahead and trust JB over your what ifs.

FanFan, you seem to have an agenda and then use arbitrary "what if" stats to support you agenda. And why is your agenda always negative? If Scoop misses, then... I mean, hilarious. Yeah, no stuff, IF he misses, its a much different outcome. He didn't. Get over it. You are actually making me like Scoop more than I ever have. Go ahead and factor in having balls and making plays into your equation. I know, I know, Gerry sucked too.

Tell you what, if you're such a whiz with sports data, tell us who is doing well once in awhile. If you have expertise, use it for good on occasion. Not just to bash.

 

[orangefan13]

Exactly being a senior means nothing towards starting outside of respect from the coach and a message to future recruits. It doens't mean your the best option. Mookie should be starting over Rak,Fair, and Triche right now by that logic. Hes a 4th year Jr/ technically a SR.