Tough Stretch but...

[Ptzburghcuse]

I was reading some of the posts regarding the tough times SU is currently experiencing stating it is time for JB to step aside and let someone else take the reigns - it really does show how most of us today live in the absolute now.

I saw a suggestions that Brey or Beilein would certainly do better with the guys on our team than JB. That got me to thinking what these two guys have done in their coaching careers that would warrant such a switch.

After a bit of digging it became apparent that neither of these guys would have even been here in 2019 to try with this group as most of you guys on this board would have called for their heads long before.

You see, Brey at Notre Dame had coaching records of:

20-10 2000
22-11 2001
19-13 2003
17-12 2004
16-14 2005
21-15 2008
22-12 2011
15-17 2013
14-18 2018

Two sub 0.500 years - nine seasons with double digit losses - There is no way on Earth you guys would stand for that!

But surely Beilein is better right?

Well with West Virginia he had these years:
14-15 2002
17-14 2003
24-11 2004
22-11 2005
and at Michigan:
10-22 2007
21-14 2008
15-17 2009
21-14 2010
16-16 2014
23-13 2015
26-12 2016

Three losing seasons! eleven double digit losing seasons - no way.

Did both of those coaches have their share of success? Surely. Did they have as much success as JB - absolutely not. Neither coach has a better career winning percentage relative to JB - despite the fact JB has coached far longer than either.

I would venture to say that most of us, myself included, fall for the grass is always greener with someone else trap but before you do please check out SWC's summary on following a legend.

JB is far from perfect and yes I would love to have the 30-5 type seasons again - being ranked #1 late in the season and annual runs at a Final Four but damn JB has been a good one and with the right pieces I think we can have another great team.

"Buck up little camper - we'll beat that slope together." - Charles De Mar

GO SU!

 

[Eric15]

You’re operating under the assumption that all schools have the game exact standards for success. We have higher expectations than Notre Dame and WVU.

The inverse would be true if we were talking football re: ND. We can handle 3 losing seasons in 4 years as part of a rebuild, but an ND football coach would never survive that.

 

[DoctorBombay]

You’re operating under the assumption that all schools have the game exact standards for success. We have higher expectations than Notre Dame and WVU.

The inverse would be true if we were talking football re: ND. We can handle 3 losing seasons in 4 years as part of a rebuild, but an ND football coach would never survive that.

Perfectly said.
Maybe the best remedy is to take those “fire him now” geniuses w/ a grain of salt. Whether it’s Dino or JB, we simply do not see a situation right now that would be made better by an in-season firing. That’s just a stupid suggestion that can’t be taken seriously. JMHO

 

[CousCuse]

The young team is coming together. The excellent recruits that were brought in are developing, the great shooters are starting to find their zone,the defense is getting to their spots faster. The early season schedule was a bear, but I don't think any of the teams remaining are better than the 4 we lost to so the team will be more mentally prepared for those matchups. It's shaping up to be a very interesting season.

 

[Scotch]

The young team is coming together. The excellent recruits that were brought in are developing, the great shooters are starting to find their zone,the defense is getting to their spots faster. The early season schedule was a bear, but I don't think any of the teams remaining are better than the 4 we lost to so the team will be more mentally prepared for those matchups. It's shaping up to be a very interesting season.

Louisville isn’t better than Penn St.?

 

[CousCuse]

Louisville isn’t better than Penn St.?

Meh. Marginally.

 

[Eric15]

Louisville isn’t better than Penn St.?

I think he just meant the rest of our non-conference schedule. And if he didn't, may God have mercy on his soul.

 

[CousCuse]

I think he just meant the rest of our non-conference schedule. And if he didn't, may God have mercy on his soul.

God shows mercy to the repentant. Outside of L'ville, I don't believe any of the teams in our league are heads above Iowa, PSU and OSU. UVA, is obviously in our league and I truly believe we can take them on a full moon night.

 

[Nicknack]

The young team is coming together. The excellent recruits that were brought in are developing, the great shooters are starting to find their zone,the defense is getting to their spots faster. The early season schedule was a bear, but I don't think any of the teams remaining are better than the 4 we lost to so the team will be more mentally prepared for those matchups. It's shaping up to be a very interesting season.

Yep, it's all gravy now. Watch out ACC, we're here.

 

[CousCuse]

Yep, it's all gravy now. Watch out ACC, we're here.

Be proud and say it out loud.

 

[OrangeFoo]

I was reading some of the posts regarding the tough times SU is currently experiencing stating it is time for JB to step aside and let someone else take the reigns - it really does show how most of us today live in the absolute now.

I saw a suggestions that Brey or Beilein would certainly do better with the guys on our team than JB. That got me to thinking what these two guys have done in their coaching careers that would warrant such a switch.

After a bit of digging it became apparent that neither of these guys would have even been here in 2019 to try with this group as most of you guys on this board would have called for their heads long before.

You see, Brey at Notre Dame had coaching records of:

20-10 2000
22-11 2001
19-13 2003
17-12 2004
16-14 2005
21-15 2008
22-12 2011
15-17 2013
14-18 2018

Two sub 0.500 years - nine seasons with double digit losses - There is no way on Earth you guys would stand for that!

But surely Beilein is better right?

Well with West Virginia he had these years:
14-15 2002
17-14 2003
24-11 2004
22-11 2005
and at Michigan:
10-22 2007
21-14 2008
15-17 2009
21-14 2010
16-16 2014
23-13 2015
26-12 2016

Three losing seasons! eleven double digit losing seasons - no way.

Did both of those coaches have their share of success? Surely. Did they have as much success as JB - absolutely not. Neither coach has a better career winning percentage relative to JB - despite the fact JB has coached far longer than either.

I would venture to say that most of us, myself included, fall for the grass is always greener with someone else trap but before you do please check out SWC's summary on following a legend.

JB is far from perfect and yes I would love to have the 30-5 type seasons again - being ranked #1 late in the season and annual runs at a Final Four but damn JB has been a good one and with the right pieces I think we can have another great team.

"Buck up little camper - we'll beat that slope together." - Charles De Mar

GO SU!

Changing the argument alert! Changing the argument alert!

No on is saying Beilein or Brey are better coaches than JB... although I think Belein has an argument.

The argument is that for this specific team and set of players, Belein and Brey would get better results than JB at this particular point in his career. The basis for that argument is that both of the former coaches are more able to get the most out of teams with limited athletic talent because those are the types of teams they have been coaching for most of their careers. Personally, I'd say that's true about Brey, not sure I'd say that's true about Belien... he's had squads with limited athleticism and squads with NBA athletes and been successful with both.

Regardless I think any coach would struggle with a team which offers so little on the interior and so little athleticism on the perimeter. Brey's best teams had either a really good interior player or several good perimeter players. At the end of the day the problem with this team isn't coaching ability its recruiting ability. We struggle to combine a long term playing strategy with player recruitment... i.e if you are going to play a pressure zone not sure where Girard and Buddy fit into that system... if you are going to rely on an iso-ball offensive strategy not sure where Buddy or Make fit into that system. And we have just missed on players... Carey and Goodine this year (sorry I am just baffled at how not ready Goodine is). And our interior recruiting has just fallen off a cliff.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Changing the argument alert! Changing the argument alert!

No on is saying Beilein or Brey are better coaches than JB... although I think Belein has an argument.

The argument is that for this specific team and set of players, Belein and Brey would get better results than JB at this particular point in his career. The basis for that argument is that both of the former coaches are more able to get the most out of teams with limited athletic talent because those are the types of teams they have been coaching for most of their careers.

Yes, this is exactly the point I was making.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

The young team is coming together. The excellent recruits that were brought in are developing, the great shooters are starting to find their zone,the defense is getting to their spots faster. The early season schedule was a bear, but I don't think any of the teams remaining are better than the 4 we lost to so the team will be more mentally prepared for those matchups. It's shaping up to be a very interesting season.

Appreciate the optimism but yesterday’s game doesn’t mean we’ve turned a corner it only means we played really well yesterday. Anyone who watched any of the 3 games vs Okie State, PSU or Iowa should still have some major concerns with this team.

I fear that anytime we play against a team that has two or more guys that weigh over 225lbs and are taller than 6-8, we’re going to struggle mightily. GT was a good matchup for us because they didn’t have a big inside presence.

 

[Nicknack]

Appreciate the optimism but yesterday’s game doesn’t mean we’ve turned a corner it only means we played really well yesterday. Anyone who watched any of the 3 games vs Okie State, PSU or Iowa should still have some major concerns with this team.

I fear that anytime we play against a team that has two or more guys that weigh over 225lbs and are taller than 6-8, we’re going to struggle mightily. GT was a good matchup for us because they didn’t have a big inside presence.

Exactly. I wish it did mean we've turned the corner but there are WAY too many issues for that to happen after one game. Hate to say it but I think it's more likely than not we never find the corner to turn.

Yesterday's game was what several on this board have been saying the last couple of weeks. Every once in a while we will make our shots and blow a team out (like any mid-major team). However, doing that consistently will likely never happen - not even close to it. Man, I wish I'm wrong here.

 

[CousCuse]

Appreciate the optimism but yesterday’s game doesn’t mean we’ve turned a corner it only means we played really well yesterday. Anyone who watched any of the 3 games vs Okie State, PSU or Iowa should still have some major concerns with this team.

I fear that anytime we play against a team that has two or more guys that weigh over 225lbs and are taller than 6-8, we’re going to struggle mightily. GT was a good matchup for us because they didn’t have a big inside presence.

I agree largely with what your saying. I'm just trying to put forth an alternate narrative to the non-stop doom that certain individuals hammer with here. It has been observed in the past that teams, especially those with many new and young players, come together and get better as a season goes on. And, we've never started the season off with so many tough opponents, usually they are tune up games. In addition, the coaching staff has drastically changed our style of play to a perimeter shooting team.

 

[Alsacs]

God shows mercy to the repentant. Outside of L'ville, I don't believe any of the teams in our league are heads above Iowa, PSU and OSU. UVA, is obviously in our league and I truly believe we can take them on a full moon night.

 

[CousCuse]

Exactly. I wish it did mean we've turned the corner but there are WAY too many issues for that to happen after one game. Hate to say it but I think it's more likely than not we never find the corner to turn.

Yesterday's game was what several on this board have been saying the last couple of weeks. Every once in a while we will make our shots and blow a team out (like any mid-major team). However, doing that consistently will likely never happen - not even close to it. Man, I wish I'm wrong here.

The outlier is our great outside shooters all being cold at the same time. They are young and nervous and tense, but I don't think that will persist.

 

[CousCuse]

View attachment 173892

You better round up the CLB and regroup.

 

[Alsacs]

The outlier is our great outside shooters all being cold at the same time. They are young and nervous and tense, but I don't think that will persist.

Iowa will be lucky to finish top 8 in the Big Ten.

Oklahoma State is a mid Big XII team.
Penn State is probably the best team of the 3. They might sneak into the top 25 but I wouldn’t say they are better than
Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Louisville.

 

[MSOrange]

Iowa will be lucky to finish top 8 in the Big Ten.

Oklahoma State is a mid Big XII team.
Penn State is probably the best team of the 3. They might sneak into the top 25 but I wouldn’t say they are better than
Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Louisville.

Penn State got slammed by Ohio State 106-74 yesterday so jury might still be out on their awesomeness.

 

[oTTo113445]

Appreciate the optimism but yesterday’s game doesn’t mean we’ve turned a corner it only means we played really well yesterday. Anyone who watched any of the 3 games vs Okie State, PSU or Iowa should still have some major concerns with this team.
I fear that anytime we play against a team that has two or more guys that weigh over 225lbs and are taller than 6-8, we’re going to struggle mightily. GT was a good matchup for us because they didn’t have a big inside presence.

Yesterday we made 6 more fg attempts, on 6 less shots.

After moving 12 made ft's over to shot attempts to balance the fg attempts equally between both teams, it translated to 11 more baskets instead of 6. On top of that we made 7 additional free throws and an additional 7 points from 3(14versus6). Which is about 36 points.

 

[Sherman20]

Appreciate the optimism but yesterday’s game doesn’t mean we’ve turned a corner it only means we played really well yesterday. Anyone who watched any of the 3 games vs Okie State, PSU or Iowa should still have some major concerns with this team.

I fear that anytime we play against a team that has two or more guys that weigh over 225lbs and are taller than 6-8, we’re going to struggle mightily. GT was a good matchup for us because they didn’t have a big inside presence.

I agree on the first part. But how are James Banks and Moses Wright not big presences inside? We played better interior D than we’d been playing all season.

 

[Sherman20]

Iowa will be lucky to finish top 8 in the Big Ten.

Oklahoma State is a mid Big XII team.
Penn State is probably the best team of the 3. They might sneak into the top 25 but I wouldn’t say they are better than
Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State and Louisville.

I don’t think you’re right. Oklahoma State and Penn State are both top 30 teams in the KenPom ratings. Iowa is top 50.
As for the ACC, Florida State has athleticism and size again, but like us, they’re still struggling to integrate a lot of new guys in key roles.

 

[Dave]

I was reading some of the posts regarding the tough times SU is currently experiencing stating it is time for JB to step aside and let someone else take the reigns - it really does show how most of us today live in the absolute now.

I saw a suggestions that Brey or Beilein would certainly do better with the guys on our team than JB. That got me to thinking what these two guys have done in their coaching careers that would warrant such a switch.

After a bit of digging it became apparent that neither of these guys would have even been here in 2019 to try with this group as most of you guys on this board would have called for their heads long before.

You see, Brey at Notre Dame had coaching records of:

20-10 2000
22-11 2001
19-13 2003
17-12 2004
16-14 2005
21-15 2008
22-12 2011
15-17 2013
14-18 2018

Two sub 0.500 years - nine seasons with double digit losses - There is no way on Earth you guys would stand for that!

But surely Beilein is better right?

Well with West Virginia he had these years:
14-15 2002
17-14 2003
24-11 2004
22-11 2005
and at Michigan:
10-22 2007
21-14 2008
15-17 2009
21-14 2010
16-16 2014
23-13 2015
26-12 2016

Three losing seasons! eleven double digit losing seasons - no way.

Did both of those coaches have their share of success? Surely. Did they have as much success as JB - absolutely not. Neither coach has a better career winning percentage relative to JB - despite the fact JB has coached far longer than either.

I would venture to say that most of us, myself included, fall for the grass is always greener with someone else trap but before you do please check out SWC's summary on following a legend.

JB is far from perfect and yes I would love to have the 30-5 type seasons again - being ranked #1 late in the season and annual runs at a Final Four but damn JB has been a good one and with the right pieces I think we can have another great team.

"Buck up little camper - we'll beat that slope together." - Charles De Mar

GO SU!

Well done. Very well done.

 

[CousCuse]

I don’t think you’re right. Oklahoma State and Penn State are both top 30 teams in the KenPom ratings. Iowa is top 50.
As for the ACC, Florida State has athleticism and size again, but like us, they’re still struggling to integrate a lot of new guys in key roles.

Only a crazy person would put FSU in the same group as Duke, UNC, UVA and the Ville. Anything to further his anti-Boeheim agenda.