Tough Stretch but...

[Cusefan0307]

Penn State got slammed by Ohio State 106-74 yesterday so jury might still be out on their awesomeness.

I get your overall point, but Ohio State has beat everybody this year by at least 19 points except Cinncinati and that includes Nova and UNC. They are destroying teams.

 

[MSOrange]

I get your overall point, but Ohio State has beat everybody this year by at least 19 points except Cinncinati and that includes Nova and UNC. They are destroying teams.

Agree. Probably is more the Buckeyes are really strong this year.

 

[Alsacs]

Only a crazy person would put FSU in the same group as Duke, UNC, UVA and the Ville. Anything to further his anti-Boeheim agenda.

I love how you are so disgenuous to my point that you take it to this garbage.
Where did I say Florida State was better than those teams. I listed them with the ACC teams as better than Iowa, Penn State,and Oklahoma State.
When you said those 3 teams were better than what we will see in conference play.

You say some of the most ridiculous things on this board and attempting a clap back would be funny if you actually did it well.

Please try better next time.
Anti-Boeheim give me a break. By your logic and stuff that comes out of your mind 95% of has an anti-Boeheim agenda.
I am a Syracuse fan. Syracuse comes before the coach.
Go post about UMass to the Big ten.
This board can use your wisdom more.
Please.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Louisville isn’t better than Penn St.?

Penn State was getting beat by 35 yesterday to Ohio State.

 

[CousCuse]

I love how you are so disgenuous to my point that you take it to this garbage.
Where did I say Florida State was better than those teams. I listed them with the ACC teams as better than Iowa, Penn State,and Oklahoma State.
When you said those 3 teams were better than what we will see in conference play.

You say some of the most ridiculous things on this board and attempting a clap back would be funny if you actually did it well.

Please try better next time.
Anti-Boeheim give me a break. By your logic and stuff that comes out of your mind 95% of has an anti-Boeheim agenda.
I am a Syracuse fan. Syracuse comes before the coach.
Go post about UMass to the Big ten.
This board can use your wisdom more.
Please.

No room for other people's point of view. Got it.

 

[supp]

No room for other people's point of view. Got it.

There's always plenty of room for different opinions but if you say dumb stuff, expect to be called on it.

 

[CousCuse]

There's always plenty of room for different opinions but if you say dumb stuff, expect to be called on it.

Advocating that the book should be closed on the season with a team full of freshman and sophomores and saying that Jim Boeheim doesn't have a plan or know how to coach anymore seem like pretty dumb things to me. But that's just fine I guess.

 

[HOFCeluck]

You say some of the most ridiculous things on this board and attempting a clap back would be funny if you actually did it well.

He’s the best though.

 

[Nicknack]

The outlier is our great outside shooters all being cold at the same time. They are young and nervous and tense, but I don't think that will persist.

Our "great" outside shooters. Who exactly are you referencing? Not sure I've seen one of those in a while. That said, Hughes is legit. Love the dude. Boeheim has to be next in line of your thinking, I would guess. Looking at his stats... good. Certainly has not earned great, yet.

I'm usually one of the guys who shines optimism on all orange. That's what is funny about this. As much as I want to see the light, I just don't. I think it just might even get worse. I so hope I'm wrong!!!

 

[CousCuse]

Our "great" outside shooters. Who exactly are you referencing? Not sure I've seen one of those in a while. That said, Hughes is legit. Love the dude. Boeheim has to be next in line of your thinking, I would guess. Looking at his stats... good. Certainly has not earned great, yet.

I'm usually one of the guys who shines optimism on all orange. That's what is funny about this. As much as I want to see the light, I just don't. I think it just might even get worse. I so hope I'm wrong!!!

Hughes, Buddy and JG3 are all great shooters. We have never had 3 guys like that on the floor at the same time. If you want to see darkness, go ahead. I see a young team with a lot of nice players and a coach who won't accept anything but their best.

 

[KevMonstah]

Only a crazy person would put FSU in the same group as Duke, UNC, UVA and the Ville. Anything to further his anti-Boeheim agenda.

At this instant Sunday night, FSU/Duke/UNC/UVa/Lville are 5 of the top 17 ranked teams
according to the press or 5 of the top 19 according to the coaches. OSU reaches #25 via the
coaches, penn state barely gets votes, Iowa does not.

As far as SU's "great" shooters go, they might be great if left open, but they haven't yet
shown the ability to get open against the better teams, aside from Hughes. That is a problem
for this team. They lack a driver or a post guy who can suck the D away from the shooters
and/or the right play calling or execution to free them.

And Syracuse should never, ever be in a situation where the coach and some fans try to sell how
good the team is if they had more tuneups, or played Bucknell, or whatever. If that's the
level of opponent SU needs to succeed, then I think the fanbase is being let down. It's
time for SU to get past being a .500 team in the ACC.

I'll take the win over GT and the purchased wins over mid level teams and ones over the lower
tier ACC, but so what. Beat some real teams.

Kev

 

[CousCuse]

At this instant Sunday night, FSU/Duke/UNC/UVa/Lville are 5 of the top 17 ranked teams
according to the press or 5 of the top 19 according to the coaches. OSU reaches #25 via the
coaches, penn state barely gets votes, Iowa does not.

As far as SU's "great" shooters go, they might be great if left open, but they haven't yet
shown the ability to get open against the better teams, aside from Hughes. That is a problem
for this team. They lack a driver or a post guy who can suck the D away from the shooters
and/or the right play calling or execution to free them.

And Syracuse should never, ever be in a situation where the coach and some fans try to sell how
good the team is if they had more tuneups, or played Bucknell, or whatever. If that's the
level of opponent SU needs to succeed, then I think the fanbase is being let down. It's
time for SU to get past being a .500 team in the ACC.

I'll take the win over GT and the purchased wins over mid level teams and ones over the lower
tier ACC, but so what. Beat some real teams.

Kev

I did not know the role of a fan was to find every reason to drag down a young team in the first month of the season. Whatever makes happy though, right Kev.

 

[SBU72]

Changing the argument alert! Changing the argument alert!

No on is saying Beilein or Brey are better coaches than JB... although I think Belein has an argument.

The argument is that for this specific team and set of players, Belein and Brey would get better results than JB at this particular point in his career. The basis for that argument is that both of the former coaches are more able to get the most out of teams with limited athletic talent because those are the types of teams they have been coaching for most of their careers. Personally, I'd say that's true about Brey, not sure I'd say that's true about Belien... he's had squads with limited athleticism and squads with NBA athletes and been successful with both.

Regardless I think any coach would struggle with a team which offers so little on the interior and so little athleticism on the perimeter. Brey's best teams had either a really good interior player or several good perimeter players. At the end of the day the problem with this team isn't coaching ability its recruiting ability. We struggle to combine a long term playing strategy with player recruitment... i.e if you are going to play a pressure zone not sure where Girard and Buddy fit into that system... if you are going to rely on an iso-ball offensive strategy not sure where Buddy or Make fit into that system. And we have just missed on players... Carey and Goodine this year (sorry I am just baffled at how not ready Goodine is). And our interior recruiting has just fallen off a cliff.

But...but...but everybody "knows" some of JB's seasons are the ones you least expect to do well. It's said do here every September!

 

[OrangeFoo]

But...but...but everybody "knows" some of JB's seasons are the ones you least expect to do well. It's said do here every September!

I think a lot of that was because back in the day even the backups were good... look at our own bench for a great example. The Allen Griffin senior year team was one of my favorite diamonds in the rough because no one expected anything and then Griffin turned out to be a great floor leader, Damone Brown a senior leader who did a little bit of everything and we had Meshawn and Shump emerge as bona fide players. Other than Brown these guys had been backups their previous years at Syracuse. Even Brown was second fiddle to other players, waiting his turn to be the star. Can you imagine Meshawn, Shump, Griffin level players on our bench these days?

Heres a hypothetical, if freshmen Shump was a freshman in this era of Syracuse hoops... would he have ever had the chance to develop or would he have been run off? He didn't emerge till he as a junior really.

The fall of this program comes down to the fall of recruiting and the inability to develop players whether because they decide to leave prematurely or the coach doesn't give them a chance. In today's world you either need to go for the one and done strategy or develop players and our strategy seems to be do do neither.

 

[orangecuse]

Advocating that the book should be closed on the season with a team full of freshman and sophomores and saying that Jim Boeheim doesn't have a plan or know how to coach anymore seem like pretty dumb things to me. But that's just fine I guess.

I did not know the role of a fan was to find every reason to drag down a young team in the first month of the season. Whatever makes happy though, right Kev.

Fact: 3/5th's of our starting lineup consists of a transferred junior (senior academically), a junior and another junior. You spew other's alleged anti JB agenda garb frequently, however, you simultaneously fail to see your own.

 

[Todoubled23]

I agree on the first part. But how are James Banks and Moses Wright not big presences inside? We played better interior D than we’d been playing all season.

Sidibe looked pretty healthy and springy going up for that putback slam early on...that's what I remember hoping he would turn out. Still think his shooting form is broken but the man was hustling.

 

[SBU72]

I think a lot of that was because back in the day even the backups were good... look at our own bench for a great example. The Allen Griffin senior year team was one of my favorite diamonds in the rough because no one expected anything and then Griffin turned out to be a great floor leader, Damone Brown a senior leader who did a little bit of everything and we had Meshawn and Shump emerge as bona fide players. Other than Brown these guys had been backups their previous years at Syracuse. Even Brown was second fiddle to other players, waiting his turn to be the star. Can you imagine Meshawn, Shump, Griffin level players on our bench these days?

Heres a hypothetical, if freshmen Shump was a freshman in this era of Syracuse hoops... would he have ever had the chance to develop or would he have been run off? He didn't emerge till he as a junior really.

The fall of this program comes down to the fall of recruiting and the inability to develop players whether because they decide to leave prematurely or the coach doesn't give them a chance. In today's world you either need to go for the one and done strategy or develop players and our strategy seems to be do do neither.

Inability to develope players? Other than turning pro, how many left prematurely and because they weren't given a chance? Of those who stayed, do you know of any who COULD have developed better? Perhaps they went as far as they could. We will never know.

 

[CousCuse]

Fact: 3/5th's of our starting lineup consists of a transferred junior (senior academically), a junior and another junior. You spew other's alleged anti JB agenda garb frequently, however, you simultaneously fail to see your own.

I don't see where guys from foreign countries have the same leadership assertiveness that American players do. They usually seem tentative and not quite sure how forceful to be. 3li is a transfer, but he looks fully Orange now and is the only real upperclassmen leader. Howash can be if he gets enough PT. With those facts and the freshman getting significant PT, the team feels young to me. There have been some tortured notes but they've scored 97 twice, so I think they are learning to play that saxophone.

 

[dollarbill44]

Lol at the OP leaving out the best years. Bielein had 3 Elite 8s and 2 national runner up teams that were left off of his record as posted. Now, why did you do that?

 

[tbonezone]

living in the absolute now ? well what is your future framework for employment w/ jim boeheim. 10 years ?
if you answered less than 4 then you handle your investments much more cavalier than i do. think long term.
what's your plan moving forward and is JB on board with it or is he gonna rock the apple cart again ?
program is most definately down but still holds a little cache. time for a change before things get really ugly.

 

[suttree]

I was reading some of the posts regarding the tough times SU is currently experiencing stating it is time for JB to step aside and let someone else take the reigns - it really does show how most of us today live in the absolute now.

I saw a suggestions that Brey or Beilein would certainly do better with the guys on our team than JB. That got me to thinking what these two guys have done in their coaching careers that would warrant such a switch.

After a bit of digging it became apparent that neither of these guys would have even been here in 2019 to try with this group as most of you guys on this board would have called for their heads long before.

You see, Brey at Notre Dame had coaching records of:

20-10 2000
22-11 2001
19-13 2003
17-12 2004
16-14 2005
21-15 2008
22-12 2011
15-17 2013
14-18 2018

Two sub 0.500 years - nine seasons with double digit losses - There is no way on Earth you guys would stand for that!

But surely Beilein is better right?

Well with West Virginia he had these years:
14-15 2002
17-14 2003
24-11 2004
22-11 2005
and at Michigan:
10-22 2007
21-14 2008
15-17 2009
21-14 2010
16-16 2014
23-13 2015
26-12 2016

Three losing seasons! eleven double digit losing seasons - no way.

Did both of those coaches have their share of success? Surely. Did they have as much success as JB - absolutely not. Neither coach has a better career winning percentage relative to JB - despite the fact JB has coached far longer than either.

I would venture to say that most of us, myself included, fall for the grass is always greener with someone else trap but before you do please check out SWC's summary on following a legend.

JB is far from perfect and yes I would love to have the 30-5 type seasons again - being ranked #1 late in the season and annual runs at a Final Four but damn JB has been a good one and with the right pieces I think we can have another great team.

"Buck up little camper - we'll beat that slope together." - Charles De Mar

GO SU!

Enjoyed this post and its optimism, but the Better Off Dead reference elevated it to truly elite status.
Good show, sir. Good show, I say.