Two things that drive me nuts from Saturday

[billsin01]

1.) Players incapable of finishing with their off-hand
2) Our inability to get the ball to the post vs. pressure defenses

As for the first, CJ Fair -- whom I think is an excellent player and probably underrated in most instances -- had an awful play where he got the ball in close off a nice pass from Scoop or KJ, I think, but he was on the right side of the basket. Instead of going up and finishing with his right, he tried to reverse (for no reason) and air-balled the layup and had to resort to claiming he was fouled.

Now I know I can't say much as my using both hands means I miss layups with each hand, but I can't help but feel a good athlete at 6-foot-8 should be able to finish strong with his off-hand. It just makes no sense to me that they can't or don't. As an aside, Johnson-Odom's little runner with his right hand was very impressive and, I think, a huge weapon.

I never can understand why simply b/c teams pressure us and overplay us, why we seem completely incapable of getting the ball in the post. It seems to me like the key is movement. You're not going to have much success with a guy holding the ball on the wing, staring at a guy fighting for position inside. It's got to be ball movement with a purpose and screens down low. But we simply don't seem to do that. Hurts us in games like that when we struggle to beat MU off the dribble.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I don't disagree but there was hella contact on most of those plays. Even when there was no contact you could see some misses were in anticipation of heavy contact. To your other point, if this team ever develops a credible half court offense, I don't think they will be stoppable by any team at the college level. Right now we have 4 guys observing and 1 guy breaking down the defense with the dribble on about 60% of our half court sets. When we work the ball around for a good shot we are making about 80% of them.

 

[stuckinbig11]

Guys that can dunk should dunk those. There can be a lot of hand-checking on the lower body that does not get called but changes the trajectory of an otherwise simple layup off the glass. Harangody did this to every player shooting inside and got away with it every time.

 

[JoeSU]

Guys that can dunk should dunk those. There can be a lot of hand-checking on the lower body that does not get called but changes the trajectory of an otherwise simple layup off the glass. Harangody did this to every player shooting inside and got away with it every time.

That's my thought. Go right back up strong and flush it, without putting the ball on the floor or trying to do anything fancy.

Although we missed a couple of "easy" put-backs, I'll bet when the score got tight, Johnson-Odom regretted his blown break-away dunk.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Guys that can dunk should dunk those. There can be a lot of hand-checking on the lower body that does not get called but changes the trajectory of an otherwise simple layup off the glass. Harangody did this to every player shooting inside and got away with it every time.

Once again I don't disagree, but remember that unless you are Fab Melo (7 footer), a dunk is going to require more "gather" for the jump than a lay in will. That takes extra time and means possibly bringing your body and ball down further prior to the jump.

 

[SUSScuse]

CJ is shooting 50% from the floor and 78% from the free throw line.
I'll take that from my undersized power forward any day.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Honestly, I am almost shocked when CJ doesn't convert down low. He is so good and crafty down there. Can't kill him for missing one of those.

 

[dollarbill44]

Who wouldn't like to see more off-hand finishing, but this is college hoops. Few guys at this level are adept at scoring with their weak hand. It's been that way since I started watching college hoops in the late 70s.

Devendorf was one of the few SU players I've seen in 33 years who could finish with either hand.

 

[BlueCurtain]

I never can understand why simply b/c teams pressure us and overplay us, why we seem completely incapable of getting the ball in the post..

The team is required to practice in m2m to run their sets and scout other team's defensive tendencies, but Boeheim does not demand the level of intensity and discipline demonstrated by the Marquettes and Pittsburghs. This is the primary reason they always look uncomfortable and out of sorts in those game situations, regardless of our talent and personnel. People want to blame AO DNP for the Butler loss because it is convenient - the fact is we lost that in the halfcourt with uncharacteristic turnovers against tight pressure defense.

 

[djcon57]

The team is required to practice in m2m to run their sets and scout other team's defensive tendencies, but Boeheim does not know how to simulate that kind of m2m intensity. This is the primary reason they always look uncomfortable and out of sorts in those game situations, regardless of our talent and personnel. People want to blame AO DNP for the Butler loss because it is convenient - the fact is we lost that in the halfcourt with uncharacteristic turnovers against tight pressure defense.

Are you serious?

 

[billsin01]

The team is required to practice in m2m to run their sets and scout other team's defensive tendencies, but Boeheim does not know how to simulate that kind of m2m intensity. This is the primary reason they always look uncomfortable and out of sorts in those game situations, regardless of our talent and personnel. People want to blame AO DNP for the Butler loss because it is convenient - the fact is we lost that in the halfcourt with uncharacteristic turnovers against tight pressure defense.

As crazy as this seems, I actually agree with a lot of this. I'm not sure about the AO/Butler parallel as I'm not sure any of us know what would have happened if he played -- he was an excellent finisher and presence down low offensively and that team had the ability to go high-low effectively with RJ.

But, regardless I think it's true that it's tough to simulate that intensity. I also think it's a downside of an offense with so much creative freedom. I really do think they could add a couple sets that could help them get a few more touches in the paint against teams like that.

 

[dollarbill44]

As crazy as this seems, I actually agree with a lot of this. I'm not sure about the AO/Butler parallel as I'm not sure any of us know what would have happened if he played -- he was an excellent finisher and presence down low offensively and that team had the ability to go high-low effectively with RJ.

But, regardless I think it's true that it's tough to simulate that intensity. I also think it's a downside of an offense with so much creative freedom. I really do think they could add a couple sets that could help them get a few more touches in the paint against teams like that.

You simulate that intensity in practice by running your offense against 6 defenders.

 

[billsin01]

Honestly, I am almost shocked when CJ doesn't convert down low. He is so good and crafty down there. Can't kill him for missing one of those.

I wouldn't and you're misreading the post (like the part where I said he's generally underrated). My point was that as a general rule kids seem to rarely just go up with their off-hand and finish and it really doesn't seem like that difficult a skill for athletes as good as they all are. It's not a huge point, but it just bothers me for some reason.

 

[billsin01]

Who wouldn't like to see more off-hand finishing, but this is college hoops. Few guys at this level are adept at scoring with their weak hand. It's been that way since I started watching college hoops in the late 70s.

Devendorf was one of the few SU players I've seen in 33 years who could finish with either hand.

I don't disagree with you on either point other than the fact that these kids are basically majoring in hoops and are, for the most part, extremely athletic. There is really no reason for a guy like CJ and/or rick jackson or anyone not to be able to make a left-handed layup. It's bizarre. It's fine and unlikely to change, it's just slightly annoying.

 

[dollarbill44]

I don't disagree with you on either point other than the fact that these kids are basically majoring in hoops and are, for the most part, extremely athletic. There is really no reason for a guy like CJ and/or rick jackson or anyone not to be able to make a left-handed layup. It's bizarre. It's fine and unlikely to change, it's just slightly annoying.

Rick was a lefty

 

[billsin01]

Rick was a lefty

True, I guess it would be the reverse for him. But he was absolutely incapable or unwilling to go the rim with his off-hand. It's cool. I loved RJ as a player. Just strange, I think.

 

[longtimefan]

True, I guess it would be the reverse for him. But he was absolutely incapable or unwilling to go the rim with his off-hand. It's cool. I loved RJ as a player. Just strange, I think.

I do remember a couple of right-handed flushes by RJ, but not in his senior year.

Then there was Derrick Coleman, who enjoyed showing off his off-(right) hand, on dunks and full court baseball passes.

 

[pearl31]

Yes, finishing with the off hand is pretty much a long-lost art, even in the NBA. Lots of blocks are due to this.

 

[CorduroyG]

Yes, finishing with the off hand is pretty much a long-lost art, even in the NBA. Lots of blocks are due to this.

Dion's block and coast to coast layup was a thing of beauty, he had odom trailing him on his right side so dion layed the ball in with his left hand to protect himself from odom blocking it. He made that look incredibly easy.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Funny it's a pet peeve of mine also. Being able to dribble, make layups, with both hands from either side should be a fundamental taught and emphasized from youth biddy ball. Tie their dominant hand behind their back till it's just second nature.

Terrance Roberts, Rick Jackson etc were really frustrating the way they'd contort their bodies to ensure they could get the shot off with their dominant hand.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't know if they still do in high school but when we played in the 60's the layup drills were right side right hand left side left hand and you better not miss or you were running laps.

 

[cuseattle]

Rick was a lefty

I miss that crafty left hand slam where he came from underneath and used the rim to protect his shot.

 

[BostonOrange]

1.) Players incapable of finishing with their off-hand
2) Our inability to get the ball to the post vs. pressure defenses

As for the first, CJ Fair -- whom I think is an excellent player and probably underrated in most instances -- had an awful play where he got the ball in close off a nice pass from Scoop or KJ, I think, but he was on the right side of the basket. Instead of going up and finishing with his right, he tried to reverse (for no reason) and air-balled the layup and had to resort to claiming he was fouled.

Now I know I can't say much as my using both hands means I miss layups with each hand, but I can't help but feel a good athlete at 6-foot-8 should be able to finish strong with his off-hand. It just makes no sense to me that they can't or don't. As an aside, Johnson-Odom's little runner with his right hand was very impressive and, I think, a huge weapon.

I never can understand why simply b/c teams pressure us and overplay us, why we seem completely incapable of getting the ball in the post. It seems to me like the key is movement. You're not going to have much success with a guy holding the ball on the wing, staring at a guy fighting for position inside. It's got to be ball movement with a purpose and screens down low. But we simply don't seem to do that. Hurts us in games like that when we struggle to beat MU off the dribble.

I totally agree on both counts. As others have mentioned it isn't like the off hand thing is uncommon in college hoops, or even pro (kg who in almost every other respect was at his peak close to fundamentally flawless has never taken a lefty layup in his life), but my god it is inexcusable. How much better would hak have been with a left hand? Cj is clearly another prime example. Contrast that to Arinze and devo who could finish so efficiently with either hand...just makes you so much harder to guard and as a d1 athlete is something that, with a summer of work, should be able to be rectified.

 

[Oakland]

Although we missed a couple of "easy" put-backs, I'll bet when the score got tight, Johnson-Odom regretted his blown break-away dunk.

BTW, that started SU's big first half run.