UNC at SU - Morning After Video Stills

[Willy75]

I don't blame Judah and he is definitely not the first SU player to drive with the ball for the last points and then get whistled for a charge. This is the result of an offensive philosophy where the head coach with 50+ years of experience puts the decision making on a kid with 1-2 years of D1 experience. It happens to SU every year, at least once if not 5 times.

It's a terrible idea to force a ref to make a decision on the last play of the game. I'm tired of watching a final "play" knowing that it's going to be a 1-1 ISO drive (or a Tyus Battle step-back jumper with one foot inside the 3P line) which will result in a charge call.

Isn’t the same thing happen in the Final Four game vs Michigan?

 

[NYCCuse826]

Isn’t the same thing happen in the Final Four game vs Michigan?

Triche was slightly undercut as he already went up IIRC.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Isn’t the same thing happen in the Final Four game vs Michigan?

You can pick the game. I don't think SU has ever gotten the benefit of a block call on that type of play. As much as I can recall, which absolutely could be bias on my part, it's nearly always been an offensive charge or a no-call. Trich, Fair, Battle, Ennis, MCW, etc, it seems like they've all been called for one on the last play to tie or win.

 

[UpstateSM]

We almost lost to Indiana last season when Jesse fouled out and nobody rebounded a missed free throw

 

[Madbiker]

Those photos are telling. In the first UNC is conducting a box out clinic. When Mintz misses the shot only UNC players are in position to rebound. In the second, on the UNC missed FT, notice SU players all fail to box out their assignment. All of them.

 

[Millhouse]

Last play continued. Judah is taking it to the house, Davis is sagging him, but constantly moving his feet and is never set. There are two referees directly watching the play.

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At no point does Davis set his feet. He's already been clocked in this still, it happened super fast, but his feet are still shuffling. There's zero chance that this is a charge.

I know his feet were still moving, I'm just telling you it's called a charge everytime

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Last play continued. Judah is taking it to the house, Davis is sagging him, but constantly moving his feet and is never set. There are two referees directly watching the play.

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At no point does Davis set his feet. He's already been clocked in this still, it happened super fast, but his feet are still shuffling. There's zero chance that this is a charge.

Great use of visual aids and a couple observations as I just rewatched the last couple minutes.

1) No question that Davis never had his feet set. However, he did have two feet in front of Judah and Mintz basically bowled him over. Personally, it doesn't appear to be a charge to me, but I can accept that fact if that's the call. And, only, because we know the block/charge call creates a lot of controversy, just like the catch/not a catch in the NFL. However, never in a million years should that have been called a Flagrant 1.

My reasons why: 1) It was a basketball play by Judah. He was going to the hoop trying to score a basket. That was his intent. 2) You almost never see a Flagrant 1 called on an offensive player. The rule was put into effect to protect the offensive player from being seriously hurt while trying to make a basket.

I bet if someone tracked Flagrant 1's, and I don't see that it's published anywhere, I would guess this Flagrant 1 would be the only one of a kind or one of very few, ever called in the history of Flagrant 1's on an offensive player trying to score.

So, all that transpires, and Caleb Love misses the first and makes the second FT. This makes the score 70-68 and UNC takes the ball out under our basket with 10.7 seconds left. At this point, Caleb Love takes Judah and pushes him back 20 feet and eventually to the ground. However, Judah gets called for his 5th foul to send Love back to the free throw line. In my opinion, this was even worse of a call that the F1. Maybe people can talk me out of that, but the way I see it, I don't see where Judah was ever the aggressor on that play.

It's a shame that we have had multiple games this season that haven't gone our way for different reasons, but this game was taken away from us. We are never going to play a perfect 40-minute game, and you can argue about a couple things that JG3 did that didn't help us, but we played good enough to win. Joe did a lot of good things. Judah did a lot of good things. Chris Bell did a lot of good things.

 

[Millhouse]

It's the go-to criticism when he does something wrong. He did what you'd ask in that situation. The only thing I'd like to see in that scenario is adding the stop and pop to his repertoire. Use the defender's momentum against them with a sudden stop to clear space.

Why isn't a stop and pop in his repertoire?

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Why isn't a stop and pop in his repertoire?

Just previous, he did have that 10- or 12-footer that went in and out. Would have been a big basket for us. Probably nothing else would have mattered at that point.

 

[Millhouse]

Just previous, he did have that 10- or 12-footer that went in and out. Would have been a big basket for us. Probably nothing else would have mattered at that point.

I don't think he could've done a stop and pop there because of those three little words

 

[djcon57]

Great use of visual aids and a couple observations as I just rewatched the last couple minutes.

1) No question that Davis never had his feet set. However, he did have two feet in front of Judah and Mintz basically bowled him over. Personally, it doesn't appear to be a charge to me, but I can accept that fact if that's the call. And, only, because we know the block/charge call creates a lot of controversy, just like the catch/not a catch in the NFL.

yeah, beyond that, the refs consistently called charges over blocks on BOTH ends in the game. Bacot got a couple. Judah just got screwed with the And 1 before.

Have to know how they are calling it and adjust. Is it fair? No. But little is.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I know his feet were still moving, I'm just telling you it's called a charge everytime

Yeah, I'm OK with it being called, whatever, but it's really pushing the limits of a what can be called a charge as defined. The flagrant was completely unjustified.

But ultimately, it's not even this particular call, my issue is with JAB constantly putting players (and refs) in this position in end of game situations and expecting either a no-call or a defensive foul. It has never ever worked out for SU in my recollection and if it has, it's probably rare and it's the exception that proves the rule.

It's like when the pirate was asked about the steering wheel attached to his belt buckle, "Arrgh, it drives me nuts!"

 

[Millhouse]

Yeah, I'm OK with it being called, whatever, but it's really pushing the limits of a what can be called a charge as defined. The flagrant was completely unjustified.

But ultimately, it's not even this particular call, my issue is with JAB constantly putting players (and refs) in this position in end of game situations and expecting either a no-call or a defensive foul. It has never ever worked out for SU in my recollection and if it has, it's probably rare and it's the exception that proves the rule.

It's like when the pirate was asked about the steering wheel attached to his belt buckle, "Arrgh, it drives me nuts!"

He probably doesn't get the flagrant if it wasn't his first time blasting someone

Whole thing was very unusual but they just said screw this you have to stop drilling people in the face

 

[upperdeck]

After the collision it looks like the trailing ref called a block and the ref under the basket calls the charge.
I'm not an expert on these hand signals, so maybe I'm wrong.

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pretty sure the ref out top is not calling a charge from that spot on the court

 

[tptcuse]

So, all that transpires, and Caleb Love misses the first and makes the second FT. This makes the score 70-68 and UNC takes the ball out under our basket with 10.7 seconds left. At this point, Caleb Love takes Judah and pushes him back 20 feet and eventually to the ground. However, Judah gets called for his 5th foul to send Love back to the free throw line. In my opinion, this was even worse of a call that the F1. Maybe people can talk me out of that, but the way I see it, I don't see where Judah was ever the aggressor on that play.

I am not sure if we would have won the game, but we should have had the ball back with another chance to win. This was an inarguably horrible call.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Would everyone who continues to incorrectly talk about having set feet being a requirement of a charge please go here - https://www.quickscores.com/downloads/ftmeadesports_20212022_NCAA_Mens_Basketball_Rulebook.pdf

Read article 6 on page 50.

 

[Dave]

Last play continued. Judah is taking it to the house, Davis is sagging him, but constantly moving his feet and is never set. There are two referees directly watching the play.

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At no point does Davis set his feet. He's already been clocked in this still, it happened super fast, but his feet are still shuffling. There's zero chance that this is a charge. I'm changing this up. I think it can be called a charge, but it's really iffy.

From the NCAA: Additionally, the defending player is not allowed to move in any direction before contact occurs (except vertically to block a shot).

But ultimately, as I've posted elsewhere, my biggest issue with it is that SU does this waaaaaay too often.

Look at where Judah’s feet are. Look at his shoulders after the contact. He was changing direction. As he changed the side the ball was on he did it overhead. The retreating defender had his head in the fast moving cylinder.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Look at where Judah’s feet are. Look at his shoulders after the contact. He was changing direction. As he changed the side the ball was on he did it overhead. The retreating defender had his head in the fast moving cylinder.

Defender is entitled to his position.

 

[PauliePeppas]

Ayers and O’Connell have always SUCKED…..would love to know what kind of “associates” they have rubbed elbows with

 

[Dave]

Defender is entitled to his position.

What position? He was backpedaling. If Judah ran him down initiating contact, I would agree with you. He did what was not quite a rip through. Offensive player is entitled to a basketball move to change sides. The initial and significant contact was arm to head as Judah changed direction. It isn’t even really a block/charge discussion. An offensive player is entitled to their cylinder. How much is that entitlement changed by their belong on the move? No way it was a flagrant. I think we agree on that game changing aspect. I personally think it was a defensive foul.

 

[Arangeman]

While it never should have gotten to that point he has to know his teammates here. You don't go straight in with the best player on the team out of the picture.

Devendorf said on the radio post game that Judah needs to learn to mix up his speeds. I’m paraphrasing but he basically said when you go full speed all the time you don’t have the ability to read situations. And they know what speed you are going. He hasn’t learned how to use the threat of his speed to keep people off balance.

 

[Dave]

What position? He was backpedaling. If Judah ran him down initiating contact, I would agree with you. He did what was not quite a rip through. Offensive player is entitled to a basketball move to change sides. The initial and significant contact was arm to head as Judah changed direction. It isn’t even really a block/charge discussion. An offensive player is entitled to their cylinder. How much is that entitlement changed by their belong on the move? No way it was a flagrant. I think we agree on that game changing aspect. I personally think it was a defensive foul.

“The cylinder is an area for the offensive player to start a basketball play, which is start a shot, a dribble or a pass. It’s defined as the hip area, the rear area, and the space in front of the offensive player when his elbows are bent and he’s holding the ball in front of him,” Cahill said.
“If the defensive player invades that cylinder, if there’s any contact other than the offensive player clearing out space, then the foul’s going to be on the defender.”

Cahill said that interpretation will be interesting when a defender is clipped, perhaps in the face, and the foul is called on that defender for invading the offensive player’s cylinder.

 

[Millhouse]

Devendorf said on the radio post game that Judah needs to learn to mix up his speeds. I’m paraphrasing but he basically said when you go full speed all the time you don’t have the ability to read situations. And they know what speed you are going. He hasn’t learned how to use the threat of his speed to keep people off balance.

Slow down speed up works in every sport

 

[OrangeDW]

Slow down speed up works in every sport

It’s why Devendorf could still get to the hoop at will in TBT even when he was the oldest guy on the court.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I thought it was a charge. The defender can be moving backward and it’s still a charge. Feet don’t have to be set. That has always been my understanding anyway. Bizarre that it isn’t so easy to find a definitive documentation of this online. This is from the NBA:

“The defender is permitted to establish his legal guarding position in the path of the dribbler regardless of his speed and distance. To get into a legal position, the defender needs to establish himself in the path of the offensive player before contact is made, thus ‘beating him to the spot,’ and before he starts his upward shooting motion.”

The Carolina defender was playing excellent defense. He doesn’t have to give Judah room to both drive directly into him, toward the hoop and swing his arms around. Judah’s responsibility is to beat the defender to the spot, and have enough room to execute his move. The latter part of that is nuanced. The defender cannot impede upon the ballhandler’s space, but when both are moving (toward the basket in this instance), the defender has no obligation to give the offensive player more room to execute a move he cannot possibly predict.

That all said, I disagreed with the assessment of a technical, because Judah was executing a basketball move, with no intent to cause that particular contact. But, that again is nuanced and the offensive player still needs to operate in a manner that ensures dangerous contact doesn’t occur. If they deemed Judah’s move as ‘reckless’ and then that recklessness subsequently causes damage, then they can assess the Tech level 1. It didn’t help Judah’s case that this was the second incident in the same game, and with the same player, in similar circumstances. Charge/block calls are made in the interest of player safety as well as for competitive balance.

And seemimgly Against my record on Boeheim, I sorta expected and didn’t condemn JB’s choice to have Judah run that end of game scenario. Judah has “melted down” in several late game situations this year, so it would have possibly been safer to choose someone else, but in real time, I kinda expected JB to call his number. Because building responsibility and trust start with giving him the opportunity again. As when your star running back has just fumbled on the previous possession, you start out the next one by giving him the ball. The result was bad. The intent and reasoning were sound. He’s your most talented player, he’s the starting PG. You have to try to trust him. Who else? Joe is too easy to guard as the primary ball handler in that situation. Who else? Gotta ride with your PG and hope he understands what needs to be done. He didn’t.

Sadly, we have a staff full of ex-guards, yet our guard play has not improved this season. Judah is largely the same player as he was back in the St John’s game. IQ has not improved. Symir doesn‘t seem to have taken a step forward, even from the promise he showed at the end of last season. Copeland is still a break glass only in the event of emergency option.