UNC at SU - Morning After Video Stills

[Cusefan0307]

The first charge was a block and an and 1. The second charge was a charge, but flagrant was ridiculous. Defensive players should not be permitted to stick their head in the players cylinder. That rule was established a couple of years ago. UNC was purposely trying to sell that garbage last night. Fans are so angry about the last call because of all the bs ticky tack crap called on us in the previous 10 minutes of the game.

 

[Dave]

I thought it was a charge. The defender can be moving backward and it’s still a charge. Feet don’t have to be set. That has always been my understanding anyway. Bizarre that it isn’t so easy to find a definitive documentation of this online. This is from the NBA:

“The defender is permitted to establish his legal guarding position in the path of the dribbler regardless of his speed and distance. To get into a legal position, the defender needs to establish himself in the path of the offensive player before contact is made, thus ‘beating him to the spot,’ and before he starts his upward shooting motion.”

The Carolina defender was playing excellent defense. He doesn’t have to give Judah room to both drive directly into him, toward the hoop and swing his arms around. Judah’s responsibility is to beat the defender to the spot, and have enough room to execute his move. The latter part of that is nuanced. The defender cannot impede upon the ballhandler’s space, but when both are moving (toward the basket in this instance), the defender has no obligation to give the offensive player more room to execute a move he cannot possibly predict.

That all said, I disagreed with the assessment of a technical, because Judah was executing a basketball move, with no intent to cause that particular contact. But, that again is nuanced and the offensive player still needs to operate in a manner that ensures dangerous contact doesn’t occur. If they deemed Judah’s move as ‘reckless’ and then that recklessness subsequently causes damage, then they can assess the Tech level 1. It didn’t help Judah’s case that this was the second incident in the same game, and with the same player, in similar circumstances. Charge/block calls are made in the interest of player safety as well as for competitive balance.

And seemimgly Against my record on Boeheim, I sorta expected and didn’t condemn JB’s choice to have Judah run that end of game scenario. Judah has “melted down” in several late game situations this year, so it would have possibly been safer to choose someone else, but in real time, I kinda expected JB to call his number. Because building responsibility and trust start with giving him the opportunity again. As when your star running back has just fumbled on the previous possession, you start out the next one by giving him the ball. The result was bad. The intent and reasoning were sound. He’s your most talented player, he’s the starting PG. You have to try to trust him. Who else? Joe is too easy to guard as the primary ball handler in that situation. Who else? Gotta ride with your PG and hope he understands what needs to be done. He didn’t.

Sadly, we have a staff full of ex-guards, yet our guard play has not improved this season. Judah is largely the same player as he was back in the St John’s game. IQ has not improved. Symir doesn‘t seem to have taken a step forward, even from the promise he showed at the end of last season. Copeland is still a break glass only in the event of emergency option.

Solid analysis although I disagree. I just felt the need to point out that the first play clearly should have been called a defensive foul.

 

[81South]

For the love of god…many of you need to read a rule book before playing official on a message board. Look up legal guarding position….that is always what a ref has to judge when calling these plays….was the player in legal guarding position. A player does not have to be standing still with his feet glued to the floor to get a charge call. The other element y’all need to be aware of is time and distance….there is no requirement for time and distance when guarding on ball…so the unc player can be as close to Judah as he wants to be. Judahs elbow crushes the kid in the face….it’s an offensive foul….easy call. I don’t agree with upgrading to flagrant but otherwise it was not a hard call as it played out.

The earlier charge on Judah was def debatable. It certainly looked like the unc kid had not established legal guarding position prior to contact but that is my take after watching it on replay in slow motion. The official has to call it at game speed. At game speed it is a hard call and very close.

I want to win these games but I refuse to shred human beings for split second decisions that hurt our chances of winning….this goes for the refs, Joes assist to Nance and Judahs drive at the end.

Night all.

 

[swish7]

Ugh, just a brutal loss. That's been covered. Couple of things I saw in the closing minutes that jump out.

1) Second to last (relevant) offensive play by SU, Judah drives in, shakes off Davis and takes a quick jumper. ... Two points here changes the game bigly.

View attachment 224471

Also, we are up 2 here and Judah is shooting with 11 seconds on the clock. There was time to setup a better play. How about Joe picking down for Bell and Bell popping off a 3 from the top of the key?

The offense was literally Judah dribbling side to side along the FT line trying to find a hole to gain yardage through.

 

[CousCuse]

For the love of god…many of you need to read a rule book before playing official on a message board. Look up legal guarding position….that is always what a ref has to judge when calling these plays….was the player in legal guarding position. A player does not have to be standing still with his feet glued to the floor to get a charge call. The other element y’all need to be aware of is time and distance….there is no requirement for time and distance when guarding on ball…so the unc player can be as close to Judah as he wants to be. Judahs elbow crushes the kid in the face….it’s an offensive foul….easy call. I don’t agree with upgrading to flagrant but otherwise it was not a hard call as it played out.

The earlier charge on Judah was def debatable. It certainly looked like the unc kid had not established legal guarding position prior to contact but that is my take after watching it on replay in slow motion. The official has to call it at game speed. At game speed it is a hard call and very close.

I want to win these games but I refuse to shred human beings for split second decisions that hurt our chances of winning….this goes for the refs, Joes assist to Nance and Judahs drive at the end.

Night all.

Is this the type of college basketball you want to see, where the defense constantly attempts to draw charges because the rules as you interpret them would lead to that.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

What position? He was backpedaling. If Judah ran him down initiating contact, I would agree with you. He did what was not quite a rip through. Offensive player is entitled to a basketball move to change sides. The initial and significant contact was arm to head as Judah changed direction. It isn’t even really a block/charge discussion. An offensive player is entitled to their cylinder. How much is that entitlement changed by their belong on the move? No way it was a flagrant. I think we agree on that game changing aspect. I personally think it was a defensive foul.

No

 

[CuseFaninVT]

“The cylinder is an area for the offensive player to start a basketball play, which is start a shot, a dribble or a pass. It’s defined as the hip area, the rear area, and the space in front of the offensive player when his elbows are bent and he’s holding the ball in front of him,” Cahill said.
“If the defensive player invades that cylinder, if there’s any contact other than the offensive player clearing out space, then the foul’s going to be on the defender.”

Cahill said that interpretation will be interesting when a defender is clipped, perhaps in the face, and the foul is called on that defender for invading the offensive player’s cylinder.

No

 

[Dave]

No

Not quite what you’re saying “no” to. The entire post is a quote by Big East Supervisor of Officials John Cahill.

 

[Millhouse]

Also, we are up 2 here and Judah is shooting with 11 seconds on the clock. There was time to setup a better play. How about Joe picking down for Bell and Bell popping off a 3 from the top of the key?

The offense was literally Judah dribbling side to side along the FT line trying to find a hole to gain yardage through.

I had a conversation with a friend last night (poor people have to listen to me in real life too) and this was the first thing he brought up

We know boeheim doesn't want that shot

 

[NineOneSeven]

I had a conversation with a friend last night (poor people have to listen to me in real life too) and this was the first thing he brought up

We know boeheim doesn't want that shot

Two for one also does come into play there. Granted that is not too common in college ball.

 

[PhatOrange]

Also, we are up 2 here and Judah is shooting with 11 seconds on the clock. There was time to setup a better play. How about Joe picking down for Bell and Bell popping off a 3 from the top of the key?

The offense was literally Judah dribbling side to side along the FT line trying to find a hole to gain yardage through.

yep during the game I shook my head wondering what the * he was doing there. Plenty of time to have gotten a better shot AND take more time off the clock. We were up 2 points.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Also, we are up 2 here and Judah is shooting with 11 seconds on the clock. There was time to setup a better play. How about Joe picking down for Bell and Bell popping off a 3 from the top of the key?

The offense was literally Judah dribbling side to side along the FT line trying to find a hole to gain yardage through.

Not a bad idea, but nobody on the team outside of Judah, Joe, or Jesse is getting the ball there as long as JB is coach. He only "trusts" certain guys whether they deliver or not. And in Mintz's case he mostly has NOT delivered.

 

[Zepharus]

Those photos are telling. In the first UNC is conducting a box out clinic. When Mintz misses the shot only UNC players are in position to rebound. In the second, on the UNC missed FT, notice SU players all fail to box out their assignment. All of them.

And... is this not coaching? If its my team and I'm breaking down video we are working on fundamentals until they puke

 

[OrangeDW]

It is interesting/disappointing that Bell never took another shot even though his hot shooting was the biggest factor offensively when we made our push in the second half.

I remember the next possesion after his corner 3 saying “find Bell!” the whole time. Instead one of the guards chucked.

Symir is probably the only one with enough savvy and the mentality to recognize that and find the hot hand.

 

[jimb]

Ugh, just a brutal loss. That's been covered. Couple of things I saw in the closing minutes that jump out.

1) Second to last (relevant) offensive play by SU, Judah drives in, shakes off Davis and takes a quick jumper. All other SU players are otherwise removed from the play, two are screened (Maliq, and Bell), one is being grabbed by Bacot (Jesse), and Joe - for some reason - is near halfcourt as the safety (I understand having a safety, but I don't like it being Joe, a weak defender and better offensive player). The refs are all watching the play. Bacot is handsy, but he's not pulling or grabbing, the arm allows him to simply pivot around Jesse and box him out. This is basic basketball, don't get screened or boxed out. Maliq is trying but Nance does a good job keeping him out of the play. Bell or Joe can't help at all. Two points here changes the game bigly.

View attachment 224471

2) Nance's missed FT that goes out of bounds which Joe saves for an easy UNC bucket. Ugh. Bacot just pushes Hima in the back and moves him from the top of the charge circle to well under the basket. No call. This is an egregious non-call right here. Two refs have a good look at what is happening. Its in the open and not in a scrum and they are looking right at the players. If Bacot gets whistled, that's 5 on him, SU would have the ball up 1 with 20 seconds left. Neither Joe or Maliq box out Black, who gets the best chance at the board, but Bacot knocks it out of his hands and then Joe saves the ball by passing to directly to Nance


View attachment 224474

Maliq, Judah, and Bell, completely ignore the 6'10" Nance who follows his miss and puts in an easy go-ahead bucket.

View attachment 224475

3) Last play relevant offensive play. A touch over 14 seconds remaining as Judah crosses halfcourt. Joe and Bell trailing the play, Maliq and Benny already inside the three point area, but they pretty much just stand back and watch. Joe never catches up
View attachment 224477

Ugh, just a brutal loss. That's been covered. Couple of things I saw in the closing minutes that jump out.

1) Second to last (relevant) offensive play by SU, Judah drives in, shakes off Davis and takes a quick jumper. All other SU players are otherwise removed from the play, two are screened (Maliq, and Bell), one is being grabbed by Bacot (Jesse), and Joe - for some reason - is near halfcourt as the safety (I understand having a safety, but I don't like it being Joe, a weak defender and better offensive player). The refs are all watching the play. Bacot is handsy, but he's not pulling or grabbing, the arm allows him to simply pivot around Jesse and box him out. This is basic basketball, don't get screened or boxed out. Maliq is trying but Nance does a good job keeping him out of the play. Bell or Joe can't help at all. Two points here changes the game bigly.

View attachment 224471

2) Nance's missed FT that goes out of bounds which Joe saves for an easy UNC bucket. Ugh. Bacot just pushes Hima in the back and moves him from the top of the charge circle to well under the basket. No call. This is an egregious non-call right here. Two refs have a good look at what is happening. Its in the open and not in a scrum and they are looking right at the players. If Bacot gets whistled, that's 5 on him, SU would have the ball up 1 with 20 seconds left. Neither Joe or Maliq box out Black, who gets the best chance at the board, but Bacot knocks it out of his hands and then Joe saves the ball by passing to directly to Nance


View attachment 224474

Maliq, Judah, and Bell, completely ignore the 6'10" Nance who follows his miss and puts in an easy go-ahead bucket.

View attachment 224475

3) Last play relevant offensive play. A touch over 14 seconds remaining as Judah crosses halfcourt. Joe and Bell trailing the play, Maliq and Benny already inside the three point area, but they pretty much just stand back and watch. Joe never catches up
View attachment 224477

When Joe goes for the save, Hima is the closest player to him, and in a good position to get the ball. Doesn't seem all that bad an idea for Joe to try to get the ball to him. Apparently Bacot was moving fast enough to get to the ball before it could get to Hima. In retrospect, doesn't really seem that bad of a try by Joe.

 

[two3zone]

Devendorf said on the radio post game that Judah needs to learn to mix up his speeds. I’m paraphrasing but he basically said when you go full speed all the time you don’t have the ability to read situations. And they know what speed you are going. He hasn’t learned how to use the threat of his speed to keep people off balance.

That was one thing that our successful guards were able to do, from Pearl to MCW, changing speeds is super important for point guards.

 

[Cuse4403]

Last play continued. Judah is taking it to the house, Davis is sagging him, but constantly moving his feet and is never set. There are two referees directly watching the play.

View attachment 224478

View attachment 224480

View attachment 224479

At no point does Davis set his feet. He's already been clocked in this still, it happened super fast, but his feet are still shuffling. There's zero chance that this is a charge. I'm changing this up. I think it can be called a charge, but it's really iffy.

From the NCAA: Additionally, the defending player is not allowed to move in any direction before contact occurs (except vertically to block a shot).

But ultimately, as I've posted elsewhere, my biggest issue with it is that SU does this waaaaaay too often.

You're posting a link to a "rule recommendation" from almost ten years ago. That's not the rule.

 

[Fly Rodder]

That was one thing that our successful guards were able to do, from Pearl to MCW, changing speeds is super important for point guards.

Flynn had that little stutter step that he used to blow past defenders.

Also, note to self, don't watch Flynn highlight videos ... now I'm sad.

 

[721Comstock]

Flynn had that little stutter step that he used to blow past defenders.

Also, note to self, don't watch Flynn highlight videos ... now I'm sad.

Even Tyler Ennis, PhD, who didn't have nearly Flynn or Mintz's elite athleticism, was a master of changing speeds, to keep the defender off balance, so he could get to his spots.

IF/when Mintz learns he doesn't have to go 100 mph all the time, he will be a much more effective player.
He also doesn't have to go all the way to the rim 100% of the time, because:
A - he can't always get there, especially because
B - now every opponent D knows that's what he's doing ALL of the time

Adding in a jump-stop, with a pullup or step-back to his arsenal will make him nearly impossible to defend.

AND - he has to realize he can drop off dimes in this action too -
it doesn't have to nor shouldn't be him calling his own # 100% of the time.

 

[PhatOrange]

And... is this not coaching? If its my team and I'm breaking down video we are working on fundamentals until they puke

We've never boxed out as long as I remember. Unless you bring that ability into this program with you (like Maliq) then forget it. You'll never learn it here or be required to use it.

 

[81South]

Is this the type of college basketball you want to see, where the defense constantly attempts to draw charges because the rules as you interpret them would lead to that.

I am an NCAA official so I am just telling you the rules and how they are interpreted and how officials are trained. Frankly there are a number of rules that I don’t agree with one of which is the flagrant rule related to elbows.

I understand folks get frustrated with officials and I used to be one of those people. I am just trying to let everyone know that at game speed and the ever changing angles that officials have in relation to the players that many plays can be extremely challenging to make. One call that should not have been missed the other night IMO was the push by Bacot on the missed free throw at the end. That was off a free throw and the trail official on that side should have had that call….that’s what he’s 100% supposed to be watching for in that situation.

Cheers.

 

[longtimefan]

I am an NCAA official so I am just telling you the rules and how they are interpreted and how officials are trained. Frankly there are a number of rules that I don’t agree with one of which is the flagrant rule related to elbows.

I understand folks get frustrated with officials and I used to be one of those people. I am just trying to let everyone know that at game speed and the ever changing angles that officials have in relation to the players that many plays can be extremely challenging to make. One call that should not have been missed the other night IMO was the push by Bacot on the missed free throw at the end. That was off a free throw and the trail official on that side should have had that call….that’s what he’s 100% supposed to be watching for in that situation.

Cheers.

Do you think that official swallowed his whistle because he knew Bacot had 4 fouls?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Even Tyler Ennis, PhD, who didn't have nearly Flynn or Mintz's elite athleticism, was a master of changing speeds, to keep the defender off balance, so he could get to his spots.

IF/when Mintz learns he doesn't have to go 100 mph all the time, he will be a much more effective player.
He also doesn't have to go all the way to the rim 100% of the time, because:
A - he can't always get there, especially because
B - now every opponent D knows that's what he's doing ALL of the time

Adding in a jump-stop, with a pullup or step-back to his arsenal will make him nearly impossible to defend.

AND - he has to realize he can drop off dimes in this action too -
it doesn't have to nor shouldn't be him calling his own # 100% of the time.

This. This. This.

Our team seems to be under the impression there are only two kinds of shots: 3 pointers or dunks/layups. Jesse also only wants to take shots at the rim.

I just watched a highlight reel of Kareem last night. And it just cemented in my head the burning question—why doesn't every (finesse) big man have a jump hook? Not necessarily a deep 'sky hook,' but if you can't overpower your defender like an Embiid, you gotta be able to get off a shot over your shoulder. Use your length, protect the ball—two points. Jesse needs a short face up game and a hook.

Mintz ought to watch film of Chris Paul. Mintz can get to any spot Paul can, but Paul doesn't bother crashing into the big trees. He doesn't get twisted, and need to make a scoop shot between four arms. If you go 100mph, hit the brakes and pull up for a 10-footer. Do that a few times, and then you can blast past them for a layup a few times, because they won't know what you're going to do. Mintz does have a little of that pull up game, but it's all just so frenetic. An experienced guard can get the same things done at a slower pace, which allows for better decisionmaking and better playmaking for teammates.

We have eleventy guards on our staff, and somehow there's been no development of our guards. People keep pointing to Mintz' stats as being so elite in terms of scoring as a freshman, but it's rare that we have so many inexperienced players that a frosh pg can just take that many shots and dominate the ball like this. He may be one of our most athletically gifted guards ever, but his efficiency isn't so hot.

 

[81South]

Do you think that official swallowed his whistle because he knew Bacot had 4 fouls?

Hard to say but you shouldn’t let any players foul status impact your next call.

 

[longtimefan]

Hard to say but you shouldn’t let any players foul status impact your next call.

"Hard to say" seems to mean it's a possibility. Too bad.