Was last night's game...

[Oakland]

Thank goodness the players didn't quit like us fans did (including me, though I did watch the entire game). They continued to play hard and the 20-4 comeback was fun. Hard to understand how they could start so badly in this game and in many other games this season (this is a rhetorical statement, please don't mention Red for the 900th time).

 

[hungrychuck]

This is way worse than any team JB fielded in his 40 something years as a head coach at our program. We were nationally known until he put us on the national level. Hell he is a game winner away from having 2 national championships.

We were in the Final Four two years before JB took over.

 

[SUFan44]

I posted this, I think, in the game thread maybe?

But as bad as this season's been (and it is the worst I've ever seen), there is a stretch here where if we don't grab some dubs, I would assume the players may just plan their trip to Cancun (do college kids still go there?).

Cal is NET 118. Duke will smash us. BC/Miami are 224/247, respectively. There is a shot that we can get three of four before UNC.

The nightmare is lose to Cal, get embarrassed by Duke by like 30 and then when we play BC/Miami, it's just games of zombie teams playing each other. If we lose three of those four before UNC, I mean, that's pretty dark times on top of where we already are.

I don't see a scenario where the nightmare doesn't happen? Feel pretty confident about that.

 

[kcsu]

No doubt -- he would have.

Because over time, he grew increasingly more petty and short tempered. And despite his clear love for SU, he hijacked the program and held it hostage for several years, which wasn't in the program's best interests. There is no doubt whatsoever that JB would have gone scorched earth.

And then it would have been over. Short term pain / ugliness, instead of long term pain / ugliness as the program slips into further irrelevancy.

And if we'd actually done due diligence and hired a qualified head coach, instead of someone who was completely unqualified and has demonstrated quickly that he's in over his head, then the program would have righted the ship, and the fans would have quickly gotten over any temper tantrum JB would have thrown, and gotten behind the new coach.

Because if there is anything that Syracusans back, it's a winner. Those negative feelings would have quickly been put in the rear view mirror IF the successor won games.

Instead, we're seeing a continuation of the program's decline, with no end in sight.

Unfortunately in today's world it's as much about Boosters and their NIL money as anything. JB going scorched earth would have burned up many Boosters. JW did the right move given all of the factors at play. After next year if Red doesn't turn it around hiring outside will have support vs opposition. Its unfortunate but it's reality.

 

[billsin01]

When JB was relieved of duty by ADJW, we were teetering on the precipice. The program was at what seemed like the nadir of bottoming out [oops] at that point, and making the right replacement hire was either going to help the program right the ship, or cause the program to fall of the cliff.

Setting aside whichever approach individuals supported / advocated for at the time, hiring an unproven coach and emphasizing ties to the program instead of legitimate evaluative criteria was a really bad, dumb approach.

Continuity hires make sense when things are going well, and the AD / fanbase wants to maintain a steady level of success. It makes zero sense to make a continuity hire when a program is struggling.

And here we are.

So I disagree slightly on two points, at least for me personally:

1) I never believed we were at the nadir last season. First, JB could coach. The talent and roster construction was sub-optimal and he had things that drove everyone crazy, but the guy was a basketball junky who knew the game. It can always get worse than that.

Secondly, since the start of conference realignment (whenever that was), I’ve always been concerned a small private school in upstate NY could become utterly and completely irrelevant when it’s all said and done. Hasn’t happened and hopefully won’t happen, but the current setup isn’t ideal for us.

2) Think your point on continuity hire is an extremely valid one. It is absolutely logical and absolutely the path they should have taken. It was never going to happen, however. University politics, boosters, the respect they have for long-time coaches like JB … it just wasn’t going to be a national search. It’s why college sports are littered with guys after The Guy.

For anyone interested in a national search, the route we appear to be taking is probably the fastest way to that point. Not rooting against Red, but if you weren’t convinced he was the man, it’s probably better that the team is really struggling as opposed to sort of hanging in there but not making the tourney.

 

[Nicknack]

Unfortunately in today's world it's as much about Boosters and their NIL money as anything. JB going scorched earth would have burned up many Boosters. JW did the right move given all of the factors at play. After next year if Red doesn't turn it around hiring outside will have support vs opposition. Its unfortunate but it's reality.

Yeah, I'm really disappointed that it appears we may have another year of this (especially with a couple good recruits coming). However, we also can't afford to lose whatever nil support we have so I guess that's the long game play.

 

[kingtidge]

Yeah, I'm really disappointed that it appears we may have another year of this (especially with a couple good recruits coming). However, we also can't afford to lose whatever nil support we have so I guess that's the long game play.

Might be another 2 years if the contract buyout is really prohibitive, as speculated.

The loaf could really hit the fan before that tho.

The upcoming season tix renewal #'s will be the next BIG bellwether shoe to drop... If renewals are way down, we have a problem... and we can't weather another 2 years of 4-8K home attendance counts at games. The revenue losses would be massive.

And then you have the Team Melo PR and funding plan around Kiyan and Sadiq coming in... if that strategy faceplants out of the gate and doesn't help maintain renewal #'s and bolster attendance, look out below. The administration is probably counting on it doing that.

 

[RF2044]

Unfortunately in today's world it's as much about Boosters and their NIL money as anything. JB going scorched earth would have burned up many Boosters. JW did the right move given all of the factors at play. After next year if Red doesn't turn it around hiring outside will have support vs opposition. Its unfortunate but it's reality.

No, he didn't do the right thing.

As evidenced by results.

Band-Aid should have been ripped off. Instead, JW opted for the path of least resistance, and it has made things worse.

 

[kingtidge]

No, he didn't do the right thing.

As evidenced by results.

Band-Aid should have been ripped off. Instead, JW opted for the path of least resistance, and it has made things worse.

I am not sure JW had much of a choice from a self-preservation perspective.

Part of JB going scorched earth would have been taking down Wildhack in the napalm drop, methinks.

He was ready to go scorched earth anyways, until they came up with the honorary position in the ADs office (and Julie and friends likely talked him down.)

If JW and Admin tried to take his legacy hire too, it would been scorched earth and I'm not sure JW survives that.

That said, a 5-year contract for Red without a performance-based discounted buyout clause is malpractice, if true.

 

[OttosShoes]

And if we'd actually done due diligence and hired a qualified head coach, instead of someone who was completely unqualified and has demonstrated quickly that he's in over his head, then the program would have righted the ship, and the fans would have quickly gotten over any temper tantrum JB would have thrown, and gotten behind the new coach.

It's a super high level of competition. A lot of coaching hires--even with all the due diligence in the world--don't work out either. There is also the scenario that we'd have a scorched earth JB *and* a coach we need to fire right now.

 

[Nicknack]

I think the played out narrative of giving Red so much credit for leading the cuse to 20 wins last year with a bunch of misfits should burn a slow death. I think those "misfits" showed that yeah, they brought drama, but they also brought a lot more talent to games than our current team. They also helped mask a lot of bad coaching that we're seeing now.

 

[RF2044]

It's a super high level of competition. A lot of coaching hires--even with all the due diligence in the world--don't work out either. There is also the scenario that we'd have a scorched earth JB *and* a coach we need to fire right now.

So what?

Are suggesting that just because some coaching hires don't work out, we shouldn't bother TRYING to hire the best candidate we can?

The problem isn't that it was an internal hire -- the problem was that they emphasized subjective evaluative criteria instead of objective / performance based ones, which led to hiring an unqualified replacement. It was the opposite of due dilligence.

But that's what happens when you prioritize the wrong qualifications. The best way to avoid having a replacement coach fail is to hire the best person you can. Just because there's no guarantee of success doesn't mean that you should just eschew the evaluation process and pick your coach like a blindfolded game of pin the tail on the donkey.

And I agree that JB did the program and the university a disservice on multiple levels -- not just by dragging the program down, but then by turning himself into a national embarrassment with his media comments, and then by further holding the AD hostage. No argument there.

 

[RF2044]

I am not sure JW had much of a choice from a self-preservation perspective.

Part of JB going scorched earth would have been taking down Wildhack in the napalm drop, methinks.

He was ready to go scorched earth anyways, until they came up with the honorary position in the ADs office (and Julie and friends likely talked him down.)

If JW and Admin tried to take his legacy hire too, it would been scorched earth and I'm not sure JW survives that.

That said, a 5-year contract for Red without a performance-based discounted buyout clause is malpractice, if true.

Could certainly be the case [i.e., self preservation].

But it is an AD's job to be the adult in the room when coaches are acting childish, and to make tough choices. JB handcuffed ADJW for too long -- years. It is also possible that making the change, while resulting in short term pain, would have yielded better results and people would have gotten over it quickly.

The program is worse off now than it was in 2023. That's the bottom line. And it is directly attributable to the poor hire we made.

 

[OttosShoes]

So what?

Are suggesting that just because some coaching hires don't work out, we shouldn't bother TRYING to hire the best candidate we can?

Nope, not suggesting that at all, just that we have the benefit of hindsight now. They didn't have that when they hired Red and there was a bigger worst case downside to going outside the program when the decision was made.

I guess my thing is I follow a handful of teams and have been through a lot of coaching changes. The NY Rangers are a great example. Even with the best stellar mega contract hire, IME the majority of times coaching changes are big struggles. Cuse basketball was able to avoid that for the better part of a lifetime, but there was always a high chance of pain when it ended.

 

[kingtidge]

Could certainly be the case [i.e., self preservation].

But it is an AD's job to be the adult in the room when coaches are acting childish, and to make tough choices. JB handcuffed ADJW for too long -- years. It is also possible that making the change, while resulting in short term pain, would have yielded better results and people would have gotten over it quickly.

The program is worse off now than it was in 2023. That's the bottom line. And it is directly attributable to the poor hire we made.

Yes, but the reality of having a HOF HC for 47 years is he had amassed power beyond the level of the AD (and was getting ready to draw his sword.)

It was not your typical AD/HC coach situation.

I agree it would have been better if we could have ripped the band aid off, but I also would not be surprised if JW couldn't do that without himself being collateral damage.

 

[Newhouser]

I am not sure JW had much of a choice from a self-preservation perspective.

Part of JB going scorched earth would have been taking down Wildhack in the napalm drop, methinks.

He was ready to go scorched earth anyways, until they came up with the honorary position in the ADs office (and Julie and friends likely talked him down.)

If JW and Admin tried to take his legacy hire too, it would been scorched earth and I'm not sure JW survives that.

That said, a 5-year contract for Red without a performance-based discounted buyout clause is malpractice, if true.

I am not a Wildhack believer but there were optics and things going on at the campus that also made it hard to pass on Red. There are realities here beyond basketball. Now the 5 year deal at 3 per is totally on the AD and I don't want to hear its standard - we should have learned from Dino, long deals with lump buy outs are not our friend.

 

[RF2044]

I think the played out narrative of giving Red so much credit for leading the cuse to 20 wins last year with a bunch of misfits should burn a slow death. I think those "misfits" showed that yeah, they brought drama, but they also brought a lot more talent to games than our current team. They also helped mask a lot of bad coaching that we're seeing now.

I agree fundamentally.

But I do think that the narrative was a little bit different [or at least it was for me]. We didn't exactly have an optimized roster, and we had a new coach trying to implement new systems [allegedly] on both sides of the ball. Although he did bring in a bunch of new faces, he inherited a bunch of guys -- several of whom didn't fully buy in [Mintz, Copeland, Bell]. He also had to deal with the absurdity of a projected contributor [Benny] who was so off the wall, he had to be dismissed in the middle of the season. And he was a new head coach for the first time, so there was a learning curve that had to be expected.

And despite all that, we got to 20 wins.

Now personally, I think that the 20 win benchmark ain't what it used to be. In 1998, that line of demarcation mattered; get to 20 wins, you are a shoe-in to make the NCAA tournament. But that isn't the case anymore.

And it also should be mentioned that there were a lot of red flags. Blowout losses, players acting up on the court, dysfunction in the locker room, etc. The offense was stagnant, and there should have been alarm bells ringing about the offense being generally the same, Red using the same inbounds plays, etc. with zero adjustments.

But the "narrative" was that for all of those challenges, Red did ok in his first year. Not great, but ok. And with some of those malcontents gone, that we'd see improved buy-in and improved results.

Hasn't worked out that way. We miss Brown a lot more than many want to believe. And Mintz, frustrating as he was at times, was a borderline NBA talent. We don't have anyone like that this year.

 

[bnoro]

Might be another 2 years if the contract buyout is really prohibitive, as speculated.

The loaf could really hit the fan before that tho.

The upcoming season tix renewal #'s will be the next BIG bellwether shoe to drop... If renewals are way down, we have a problem... and we can't weather another 2 years of 4-8K home attendance counts at games. The revenue losses would be massive.

And then you have the Team Melo PR and funding plan around Kiyan and Sadiq coming in... if that strategy faceplants out of the gate and doesn't help maintain renewal #'s and bolster attendance, look out below. The administration is probably counting on it doing that.

There's no chance the contract buyout is that prohibitive.

I think that's all been fueled on this board by KCSU throwing around that $20m number (which covered rev sharing for the athletes and had nothing to do with the contract buyout).

 

[cardiac]

I think the played out narrative of giving Red so much credit for leading the cuse to 20 wins last year with a bunch of misfits should burn a slow death. I think those "misfits" showed that yeah, they brought drama, but they also brought a lot more talent to games than our current team. They also helped mask a lot of bad coaching that we're seeing now.

I find it very hard to celebrate a 19 win season(chaminade doesn’t count) that doesn’t make the tournament team. But then again if they had the money to retain Jesse, that’s a tournament team and Red gets a pass for this year

 

[kingtidge]

There's no chance the contract buyout is that prohibitive.

I think that's all been fueled on this board by KCSU throwing around that $20m number (which covered rev sharing for the athletes and had nothing to do with the contract buyout).

Yeah - I duuno.

Bulldog04 has been saying consistently that his sources say Red is here for 2 more years damn the torpedoes (no buyout will be considered for another 2 years minimum.)

That may be the plan (until it isn't, I suppose.) Empty dome and poor season tix renewals could make the math untenable and a sooner buyout the path of least revenue bleeding.

 

[orangecuse]

Thank goodness the players didn't quit like us fans did (including me, though I did watch the entire game). They continued to play hard and the 20-4 comeback was fun. Hard to understand how they could start so badly in this game and in many other games this season (this is a rhetorical statement, please don't mention Red for the 900th time).

Okay, yeah, but isn't playing hard kind of a prerequisite of any true competitor and where it's rather innate? Why should that deserve any solace? In my younger days, even playing pick up/non-organized type affairs, etc. competing was simply a given, or you were told GTFOH. These dudes are playing at the highest collegiate level, so, forgive me if I kind of cringe when I see, hear, etc. about playing hard. Not to mention getting paid $$$ to boot, where quite of few of them are getting some significant coin.

 

[phil77]

It's a super high level of competition. A lot of coaching hires--even with all the due diligence in the world--don't work out either. There is also the scenario that we'd have a scorched earth JB *and* a coach we need to fire right now.

I remember these same arguments on the football board on why we should keep Dino. Hey man if we go out and hire someone else it could be worse. We should be happy with mediocrity because of the unknown.

It literally couldn't be worse than what we are seeing on the court right now. The team plays uninspiring basketball for 90% of the game. Doesn't run any time of modern offense and has no idea how to play team defense. It can't get worse.

 

[kcsu]

There's no chance the contract buyout is that prohibitive.

I think that's all been fueled on this board by KCSU throwing around that $20m number (which covered rev sharing for the athletes and had nothing to do with the contract buyout).

Where do you think the 20m settlement money and coaches contract buyout comes from?

 

[OttosShoes]

I remember these same arguments on the football board on why we should keep Dino. Hey man if we go out and hire someone else it could be worse. We should be happy with mediocrity because of the unknown.

I didn't say we should keep Red, in fact I think it's time to move on.

It's the other way around that I'm getting at. People seem to think an outside hire would've been a sure thing, but it wasn't. The school had a ton of risk either way and we don't automatically win a game of woulda coulda shoulda. I mean, if an outside hire didn't pan out, I'm sure we'd be saying how we should've hired someone that better understood the program.

It literally couldn't be worse than what we are seeing on the court right now. The team plays uninspiring basketball for 90% of the game. Doesn't run any time of modern offense and has no idea how to play team defense. It can't get worse.

I mean, team could be 3-18 right now with nothing but 3-star commits. I guess in some ways that might've been preferable though as it would've forced the issue. :/

 

[bnoro]

Where do you think the 20m settlement money and coaches contract buyout comes from?

The only thing the two numbers have in common with each other is that they come out of the same budget. But even then, if it's $2m to fire Red, you can find a disgruntled booster to pay it. I'm sure there are plenty of them right now.