Week 3 Depth Chart for Clemson

RF2044

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exactly so can we finally establish that trying to put 50lbs on defensive ends and moving them inside isn't a very good recipe for DT success????? but but but that one time...
I'm not sure where to even begin with this bizarre post. So let's start with the use case.

Defensive linemen are at an absolute PREMIUM in college football. Competition is extensive for guys with size who are athletic / can move their feet. The recruits that the factories land are all tall, 300 pounds, and have wheels. The guys other programs land tend to miss a measureable -- i.e., they are 300 pounds but short, or they have size but are slow.

I get that there are exceptions. I'll take an Eric Crume every day of the week. But most things being equal, our program is not going to land the type of elite DT prospects that Penn State, Clemson, and others are landing. Which means that we either target:
  • Big slow guys
  • Shorter guys who aren't as big as those on other top 25 programs, let alone elite ones
  • Prospects who can grow into the role

But our program has had tremendous success targeting D-Line recruits who have the frames to move inside. Chris Slayton is just one example of that [McKinley Williams , Jay Bromely are others]-- a guy who was a bigger DE, who had the body to fill out and not lose athleticism. And while it took us a year or two to grow him into DT, he was then a guy who enabled us to compete at the LOS with big time programs, and give us a player similar to the ones that the factories recruit out of HS. The difference being -- their guys are closer to finished products, whereas our guys are not.

And please let's dispense with the notion that this is the case for every DE we bring in. Nobody is suggesting that Ishamael Goldburne at an incoming weight of 198 pounds projects to DT. But Muonz / Daswon? Those guys were brought in to be "grown" into athletic DTs. Probably ditto for Caleb Okechukwu.

So it seems to me that the OPPOSITE is getting established.
 

RF2044

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you have 2 choices,, get bigs to sign or get smalls to sign and build them up best you can. you cant order two 3 techniques on amazon.
Right?
 

PhatOrange

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I'm not sure where to even begin with this bizarre post. So let's start with the use case.

Defensive linemen are at an absolute PREMIUM in college football. Competition is extensive for guys with size who are athletic / can move their feet. The recruits that the factories land are all tall, 300 pounds, and have wheels. The guys other programs land tend to miss a measureable -- i.e., they are 300 pounds but short, or they have size but are slow.

I get that there are exceptions. I'll take an Eric Crume every day of the week. But most things being equal, our program is not going to land the type of elite DT prospects that Penn State, Clemson, and others are landing. Which means that we either target:
  • Big slow guys
  • Shorter guys who aren't as big as those on other top 25 programs, let alone elite ones
  • Prospects who can grow into the role

But our program has had tremendous success targeting D-Line recruits who have the frames to move inside. Chris Slayton is just one example of that [McKinley Williams , Jay Bromely are others]-- a guy who was a bigger DE, who had the body to fill out and not lose athleticism. And while it took us a year or two to grow him into DT, he was then a guy who enabled us to compete at the LOS with big time programs, and give us a player similar to the ones that the factories recruit out of HS. The difference being -- their guys are closer to finished products, whereas our guys are not.

And please let's dispense with the notion that this is the case for every DE we bring in. Nobody is suggesting that Ishamael Goldburne at an incoming weight of 198 pounds projects to DT. But Muonz / Daswon? Those guys were brought in to be "grown" into athletic DTs. Probably ditto for Caleb Okechukwu.

So it seems to me that the OPPOSITE is getting established.
I know you love defending this. I think growing a kid about 30 lbs is what can be expected.

Munoz yes - and he's listed at 255 (+30 = 285)

Tuazama maybe yes - listed at 6-5 250 (+30 = 280)

Okechukwu has already put on about 20 lbs (listed at 261)

Dawson listed at 6-5 237. (tall but +30 is 267)

Those kids aren't going to be 'grown' into 300 pounders. 280 is probably peak, 290 would be outstanding. To expect it as matter of fact is a stretch. To succeed on the DL in the ACC at 280 takes elite type quickness, strength and talent. Just my opinion.

Bromley I'm pretty sure came in north of 260, maybe 270. Played at 285

Black was about 238 when he came in. He plays at 270.

Slayton was around 270 when he came in. He played anywhere from 290-309.

Ruff was about 255 when he came in and put on the most weight listed at 308 right now.

McKinnely came in around 250 and is currently listed at 282.

3 of the 4 current kids put on 30 pounds.


There are 100+ defensive tackles over 250 lbs listed here... We need to do a better job starting off with heavier hippos so we can actually get them to 300lbs. I think there are a lot more Eric Crume's out there than people realize. We're going to struggle on the DL playing at 280.


Illoa is listed at 280 right now and comes in at #121 on the DT list but we're projecting him as an OL ?
 

kcsu

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Yep - if Jackson's first reads were wide open, our DE's didn't have a chance to get there.
When a D gets confused you should simplify the D and play man up. CBs play man nick takes slot and or TE. LBs only worry about RBs or TE. Because they neutralized our DEs we could of gone 3 3 5 and either dropped an LB to take away middle short, pressured with a Nick LB or CB. Staying soft with 2 LBs and having our ends schemed out of plays was obvious after the second score.
 

RF2044

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I know you love defending this. I think growing a kid about 30 lbs is what can be expected.

Munoz yes - and he's listed at 255 (+30 = 285)

Tuazama maybe yes - listed at 6-5 250 (+30 = 280)

Okechukwu has already put on about 20 lbs (listed at 261)

Dawson listed at 6-5 237. (tall but +30 is 267)

Those kids aren't going to be 'grown' into 300 pounders. 280 is probably peak, 290 would be outstanding. To expect it as matter of fact is a stretch. To succeed on the DL in the ACC at 280 takes elite type quickness, strength and talent. Just my opinion.

Bromley I'm pretty sure came in north of 260, maybe 270. Played at 285

Black was about 238 when he came in. He plays at 270.

Slayton was around 270 when he came in. He played anywhere from 290-309.

Ruff was about 255 when he came in and put on the most weight listed at 308 right now.

McKinnely came in around 250 and is currently listed at 282.

3 of the 4 current kids put on 30 pounds.


There are 100+ defensive tackles over 250 lbs listed here... We need to do a better job starting off with heavier hippos so we can actually get them to 300lbs. I think there are a lot more Eric Crume's out there than people realize. We're going to struggle on the DL playing at 280.


Illoa is listed at 280 right now and comes in at #121 on the DT list but we're projecting him as an OL ?
We both know that not all DTs are the same, or asked to perform the same role. Some get upfield and make plays in the backfield. Some are run pluggers. Some occupy double teams, which enable teammates to make play. Very few are the "three technique" that Babers' affectionately referred to Slayton as.

The notion that all DTs are the same and have the same role and / or need to play at 300 pounds is as much bunk as suggesting that we're trying to grow all DEs into DTs. We're not.

Here's an indicator to pay attention to: when you see a guy 6-4 or taller and listed as a DE, but lacks the type of DE attributes for our system, chances are he's being targeted as someone slated for inside.

I don't have to "defend" anything -- this is the approach that the staff is taking. Pretending that it isn't is what's pointless.

Now, if your argument is that we need more traditional DTs to build depth alongside these athletic, taller, more mobile guys -- then I agree 100%. Don't care about the stars -- land a 6-2 290 guy [perhaps Ialoa, if he doesn't end up at G as projected], plus a Dawson / Munoz / Tuazma type or two. Eric Crume was an absolute home run as a two-star. But in that mold -- agree 100%.

I'm not sure where you came up 30 pounds -- seems arbitrary and low -- I concede that some players / physiques aren't capable of adding that much weight, but others are. There's nothing wrong with 280 - 290 pound DTs. The number is irrelevant -- becuase 280 pounds is totally different on a 6-6 frame than on a 6-2 frame.
 
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kcsu

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We need girth. Refrigerators. Guys that eat up centers and Guards and keep the off the second level. Take a look at the average size of the top 10 ranked college teams DTs. Size matters.
 

RF2044

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We need girth. Refrigerators. Guys that eat up centers and Guards and keep the off the second level. Take a look at the average size of the top 10 ranked college teams DTs. Size matters.
And then we'd get eaten up by the Clemson, Lousiville, and FSU -- all of whom play on our side of the conference and field offensive players who would be exponentially faster and more athletic.

What we really need is improved depth, such that an injury to our projected NT doesn't compromise our ability to defend the run -- not recruiting a bunch of hippos that can't move. We need BOTH-- run pluggers and athletic DTs, and then you use them situationally.
 

richard levy

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I know you love defending this. I think growing a kid about 30 lbs is what can be expected.

Munoz yes - and he's listed at 255 (+30 = 285)

Tuazama maybe yes - listed at 6-5 250 (+30 = 280)

Okechukwu has already put on about 20 lbs (listed at 261)

Dawson listed at 6-5 237. (tall but +30 is 267)

Those kids aren't going to be 'grown' into 300 pounders. 280 is probably peak, 290 would be outstanding. To expect it as matter of fact is a stretch. To succeed on the DL in the ACC at 280 takes elite type quickness, strength and talent. Just my opinion.

Bromley I'm pretty sure came in north of 260, maybe 270. Played at 285

Black was about 238 when he came in. He plays at 270.

Slayton was around 270 when he came in. He played anywhere from 290-309.

Ruff was about 255 when he came in and put on the most weight listed at 308 right now.

McKinnely came in around 250 and is currently listed at 282.

3 of the 4 current kids put on 30 pounds.


There are 100+ defensive tackles over 250 lbs listed here... We need to do a better job starting off with heavier hippos so we can actually get them to 300lbs. I think there are a lot more Eric Crume's out there than people realize. We're going to struggle on the DL playing at 280.


Illoa is listed at 280 right now and comes in at #121 on the DT list but we're projecting him as an OL ?
I think a more realistic option is recruiting a surplus of OL’s and converting some to the DL, or HS OL’s who fall short on a measurable, like having “short arms”
 

RMH44

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exactly so can we finally establish that trying to put 50lbs on defensive ends and moving them inside isn't a very good recipe for DT success????? but but but that one time...
On most other ACC and/or SEC teams Black would be a strong side DE.
 

PhatOrange

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Now, if your argument is that we need more traditional DTs to build depth alongside these athletic, taller, more mobile guys -- then I agree 100%. Don't care about the stars -- land a 6-2 290 guy [perhaps Ialoa, if he doesn't end up at G as projected], plus a Dawson / Munoz / Tuazma type or two. Eric Crume was an absolute home run as a two-star. But in that mold -- agree 100%.

I'm not sure where you came up 30 pounds -- seems arbitrary and low -- I concede that some players / physiques aren't capable of adding that much weight, but others are. There's nothing wrong with 280 - 290 pound DTs. The number is irrelevant -- becuase 280 pounds is totally different on a 6-6 frame than on a 6-2 frame.
I went with 30 lbs because that seems to be about what our guys are capable of putting on and still being effective (and at some point your body max's out if you want to stay fit and mobile). I think what we see wrong with 280 is they get pushed around a lot.

I forgot about Rondi. I believe him and Munoz will eventually play around 290 (or more) and I really like both. I think 290 should be the minimum target weight.
 

UelSU

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Yep - if Jackson's first reads were wide open, our DE's didn't have a chance to get there.
They had the quick throwing game rolling. That's what we need to do against Clemson.
 

RMH44

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They had the quick throwing game rolling. That's what we need to do against Clemson.
Agreed...we were completely out-schemed on both sides of the ball.

With that said, I think Maryland is probably a top 1-15 team.
 

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