What if we said no when they came knocking? long

[AlaskaSU]

The consensus is that we would have been bridesmaids because, 1) other schools would have accepted, and 2) the Big East was destined for oblivion. What if Pitt and SU said no thanks.

1) The ACC wanted an expanded footprint with acceptable schools. UCon is unacceptable due to a hard earned and well deserved shady reputation. Rutgers has a case but they have no following. Everyone else is clearly unsuitable for the ACC as basketball onlies are out of consideration and the Dames are not interested in marriage. The Ville and W. Virginia do not cut it in academics nor do they expand the ACC footprint, etc.

The ACC wants to stay on the east coast. That would rule out Kansas and other Big 12 refugees.

2) With the addition of TCU and the availability of Big 12 refugees the Big East could have added a couple of plums, and split into two leagues with some provision for inter league ties like a Big East challenge similar to ACC/Big10.

Like any decision, there are risks that go with both options. Perhaps we did the right thing. Perhaps not. Perhaps the ACC will be raided by the financial kings, the SEC?

What bugs me is that the ACC North will be a 2 team conference, 3 at most if UCon comes, and that is a big if. It is far inferior to the Big East. And now we have the possibility of NYC home games. This is a big gamble in terms of our fan base.

Football drives the revenue bus, but there is value to playing to your strength. Basketball is our strength. We are joining a league, ACC North, that is no better than the A-10. The only team with potential to improve is the Terps, due to Baltimore. The rest are perpetual nobodies that never benefited from ACC association in terms of becoming basketball relevant. There is no reason to believe that they will get better due to the presence of Pitt and us.

 

[SaintTristan]

This is very simple - Syracuse does not belong in a conf with Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, Cinnci, etc etc. These are crap commuter schools. SU's academic standing is going to go up because of its affiliation with outstanding schools like duke, UVA, UNC etc. its all about perception.

even forgetting about the obvious athletic benefits, this is a no brainer. maybe Hoops suffers a bit b/c the BE hoops conf was insane, but football is going to pop as is SU's reputation.

easy choice.

 

[orangefan13]

1.You have to consider the ACC has 14 teams 16 will be a Awfull lot and everyone will be mad they don't play Duke or North carolina twice already.

2. While long travel works for football (just as South Florida only being relevent for football in the big east) for basketball its a different outlook. You play 2-3 conference teams a week instead of one. That makes a difference for Students players and fans
So what do you do????

Also, I don't buy for one minute that Nova and Gtown as basketball only schools hurt the big east financially at any point in time. They get none of the football profits.

A Megaconference for basketball adding Gtown,Nova, or maybe St Johns with those 14 football teams could benefit us. Notre Dame is to far off the coast.

 

[orange79]

A Megaconference for basketball adding Gtown,Nova, or maybe St Johns with those 14 football teams could benefit us. Notre Dame is to far off the coast.

We just left a clusterf**k like that. And you want to recreate it? Really? I see no good reason for it. More mouths to feed, different agendas.

 

[orangefan13]

Actually I don't know where I fall.

I don't get how South Florida did ok in the big east but Miami after a few Championships was loosing money

But when you really look at a map Hey Miami is way way way down south and we are way way way up north with BC Pitt and Maryland not to far away.

 

[AlaskaSU]

My attitude is wait and see how it turns out. If Pitt and Cuse stayed home I do not see the ACC necessarily going to UCon/Rutgers.

I think that the Big East could have Cherry picked the Big 12 and then split into two conferences. The primary relationship of the two new conferences would have been a Big East/New East challenge.

Academics could be improved in the ACC, especially if UCon is kept out. Unfortunately, Syracuse decided that political correctness is more important than academics and in so doing shot itself in the foot. SU academics will not be as high as it should be until there is a new administration. It did not help that we lost a good chunk of our endowment in the dot com bubble.

My primary beef is that the ACC north will suc in basketball. I admit, I don't pay much attention to football.

 

[StopCoolio]

You say that the ACC North will suck at hoops, but we really don’t know how it’ll play out as far as recruiting, so a couple years down the line could look a lot different than it does now.

Do kids still go to St. John’s, Georgetown, Nova, etc. now that we’re gone and pretty much everyone else wants to leave? If they don’t see the Big East as the preeminent hoops conference then the choices may be different, and the most geographically likely place they’d end up is an ACC school, which would change the talent level.

Too early to tell but I think there’s a good chance that the Big East just took a major perception hit in the eyes of recruits and that the ACC is going to be the primary beneficiary.

 

[ACCBballFan]

My attitude is wait and see how it turns out. If Pitt and Cuse stayed home I do not see the ACC necessarily going to UCon/Rutgers.

I think that the Big East could have Cherry picked the Big 12 and then split into two conferences. The primary relationship of the two new conferences would have been a Big East/New East challenge.

Academics could be improved in the ACC, especially if UCon is kept out. Unfortunately, Syracuse decided that political correctness is more important than academics and in so doing shot itself in the foot. SU academics will not be as high as it should be until there is a new administration. It did not help that we lost a good chunk of our endowment in the dot com bubble.

My primary beef is that the ACC north will suc in basketball. I admit, I don't pay much attention to football.

If there is any cherry picking to be done in football, it would be the other way around with B12 snagging TCU or West VA or USF or UL. With Cincy on 2 year probation, doubt B12 would give them a look. B12 not interested in UCONN or Rutgers.

The B12's medium TV share is 768K vs. BE's 521K. B12's average TV share is 903 K versus BE's 579K. So not sure anyone want to leave $$ on the table by leaving B12.

With respect to what you call ACC North, that has not been decided yet whether to have one big conference with TV driving who plays who in 3 Home and Homes with other 10 teams alternating home and away each year for 16 game schedule, or 2 divisons as you surmise playing a 19 game schedule which is a lot if they play 6 teams intra- division twice and 7 inter-division.

Even though Cuse cannot play itself, the TV bosses would assure sweet 16 teams play twice. ACC has UNC, Duke and Pitt in addiiton to Cuse, and BE has UCONN and Lousiville. So that's a one game advantage for ACC with respect to 3 top 16 teams at the Carrier Dome to BE's 2 without Pitt and Cuse, and another one game advantage on automatic TV game regardless of where one lives.

The answer to how quickly BE overcomes that ACC advantage depends on whether one views it from perspective of a Syracuse student or a Syracuse alum in NYC area. Either way BE quickly evens things out with Villanova and St Johns' contests being games worth watching. If you live in NYC add Rutgers and Seton Hall for 2 game advantage to BE, if not NYC, still even as probably not worth the 4-5 hour drive to see a blow out game.

G-town and MD offset as do West VA - UVA and BC-Providence with everybody else too far away to swing things, Notre Dame, VA Tech, Cincy and NC State closer than Marquette, Clemson, Wake, DePaul, GA Tech, FSU, Miami, USF and TCU.

If BE adds Temple, another game advantage for BE. If BE adds service academies football only, no Bball impact with TCU and whomever being a bad trade for Pitt and Cuse.
So if ACC does not go divsions it's a wash in upstate NY and a two game BE advantage in NYC. That is pretty well off set by Boeheim having 3 more OOC games (16 ACC versus 19 if ACC-North and ACC-South) to either make lots of $$ in Dome off cupcakes or try to play Nova or St John's home and home like UNC schedules UK and Texas.

Other than for pre-season tournaments, Jim Boeheim rarely leaves state of NY much less Syracuse Dome in November but might schedule an early February game like Duke does with St John's or perhaps one at MSG in mid December like Duke does each year with Pitt, Zaga, Butler, Mich St etc. which would make it pretty much a wash ACC opponents versus BE opponents.

As you say, different story if ACC North route especially this year with BC and MD both being depleted. They should be back by time 27 month hadcuffs are released though, more so than nearby Providence, Rutgers and Seton Hall ever are.

Since ACC does not have as many good mid-tier teams as BE, due in part to 14 teams versus 16 and also by BE mid tier just being better, Syracuse and Pitt may have to schedule a slightly stronger OOC to not hurt their RPI. That is somewhat offset by ACC having 4 top 12 teams (only play 3, not oneself) as BE had before losing two, and also matters more for bubble teams than it does for perennial powers.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Your premise is that if the ACC divides into two conferences they will create alternating home and aways between each division. As you said, that would create 19 conference games. Not likely. I guess that there will be computer generated random interdivisional matchups so that it takes two years for each team to meet all its divisional counterparts. Interdivisional pairings based on prior year ACC records would be preferable but they are unlikely because even the doormats want to maximize their revenue by playing the big boys.

Another premise is that the Big 12 will maintain its financial strength.

 

[cto]

Totally hypothetical question. We never would have said no. Big East is in shambles. If we had said no, we would be part of the "shambles." Total no-brainer.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Totally hypothetical question. We never would have said no. Big East is in shambles. If we had said no, we would be part of the "shambles." Total no-brainer.

That's the part that I don't understand. I can understand some people's issues with the move, but once they get past their own selfishness, how many of them really want to be left on the sidelines when all the dust settles.

 

[ACCBballFan]

. I guess that there will be computer generated random interdivisional matchups so that it takes two years for each team to meet all its divisional counterparts. Interdivisional pairings based on prior year ACC records would be preferable but they are unlikely because even the doormats want to maximize their revenue by playing the big boys.

Another premise is that the Big 12 will maintain its financial strength.

In that every two year scenario, it could take 3-4 years before Cuse plays some of these ACC-South teams at home. Same for some of these teams ever hosting Pitt or Cuse. BE even bigger at 16 did not go that route and I do not think ACC at 14 would either for Bball, though it makes more sense for football.

On the B12 remaining more financially viable than BE, that's pretty safe. Even if BE retains all its teams, the B12 median is 521K TV share and the 7 team average with TCU is 548K.

Though annexing the service academies would help BE on stability front, it would also be dilutive as all 3 are smaller than BE's smallest market UL (300). Air Force TV share is 214K, Navy 237K and Army 198K to bring the 10 team BE average down to 448K, and median down to 323K-374K, which is smaller than every B12 market except Baylor (210K), and also K-State on one of the two metrics (428K).

 

[AlaskaSU]

In that every two year scenario, it could take 3-4 years before Cuse plays some of these ACC-South teams at home. Same for some of these teams ever hosting Pitt or Cuse. BE even bigger at 16 did not go that route and I do not think ACC at 14 would either for Bball, though it makes more sense for football.

On the B12 remaining more financially viable than BE, that's pretty safe. Even if BE retains all its teams, the B12 median is 521K TV share and the 7 team average with TCU is 548K.

Though annexing the service academies would help BE on stability front, it would also be dilutive as all 3 are smaller than BE's smallest market UL (300). Air Force TV share is 214K, Navy 237K and Army 198K to bring the 10 team BE average down to 448K, and median down to 323K-374K, which is smaller than every B12 market except Baylor (210K), and also K-State on one of the two metrics (428K).

What the Big East did, the ACC will never do. The Big East used hocus pocus and a computer to schedule 3 home and homes for each team along with playing every other team just once per year. This destroyed long standing team rivalries. We only play Georgetown once this year.

19 ACC games will never fly. Two divisions is inevitable which means that we will only see just one the two big boys just once per year, except for the conf championships. I hope I'm wrong.

I prefer the ACC to the Big 10. If we (Pitt and Cuse) would have said no, the ACC would not have taken Rutgers and UCON. If they wanted them they would have taken them. W Virginia is ripe for SEC poaching and many Big East teams were ripe for Big Whatever poaching. I recognize that we had no choice.

I want to compete against Puke and NC but I'm not sure that this will happen on a regular basis.

BTW TCU is/was headed to the Big East. TV contracts are going to change.

 

[Cusefan95]

The ACC was going to get to 14. period. If that meant they did it with UConn and Rutgers because Syracuse and Pitt said so, so be it. The important thing was that they get to 14 teams so they could reopen the contract with ESPN. Anyone that thinks remaining in an unchanged Big East was even remotely an option is just choosing to pretend an option existed that didn't, wouldn't and couldn't. The choices Syracuse had were to join the ACC, or stay in the Dying Big East while some other schools joined the ACC.

 

[domestu]

With schools lile Nebraska, Colorado, and Texas A&M jumping to ever-expanding conferences, it was only a question of time before some Big East football members left for the enticing rewards that a more powerful college football conference had to offer. After Miami, Virginia Tech, and BC left for the ACC, our football conference became kind of mid-major league that was situated between the power conferences and the non-BCS conferences and once the latest round of expansion began it was inevitable that somebody from the BE would eventually depart. From a football perspective, the move to the ACC was a no-brainer for Syracuse and Pitt.

Our football program will clearly benefit from this but it remains to be seen exactly what kind of long-term effect it will have on recruiting or our level of play. There is no question in my mind that Cuse hoops will continue to excel in the ACC and our addition for basketball is a real coup for the league. My expectations are for continued success in basketball but there are also risks that could possibly arise on the hoops front. A lot of fans are assuming that we are going to keep playing our longtime BE rivals but it is impossible to know how things are going to shake out. If the Big East breaks apart, some of those schools might not have any interest in playing us. There are plenty of uncertainities that remain to be settled.

I don't know what the future has in store for us and I'll probably be disappointed by some of the twists and turns that the future will bring. I do believe that school officials made a good decision that is in the best interest for our sports programs. The configuration of the Big East Conference was never going to be able to compete on an equal footing with the larger football leagues whenever expansion raised its head. I'm going to really miss BE hoops but I am looking forward to the future.

Go Orange!

 

[SUalldway]

The consensus is that we would have been bridesmaids because, 1) other schools would have accepted, and 2) the Big East was destined for oblivion. What if Pitt and SU said no thanks.

1) The ACC wanted an expanded footprint with acceptable schools. UCon is unacceptable due to a hard earned and well deserved shady reputation. Rutgers has a case but they have no following. Everyone else is clearly unsuitable for the ACC as basketball onlies are out of consideration and the Dames are not interested in marriage. The Ville and W. Virginia do not cut it in academics nor do they expand the ACC footprint, etc.

The ACC wants to stay on the east coast. That would rule out Kansas and other Big 12 refugees.

2) With the addition of TCU and the availability of Big 12 refugees the Big East could have added a couple of plums, and split into two leagues with some provision for inter league ties like a Big East challenge similar to ACC/Big10.

Like any decision, there are risks that go with both options. Perhaps we did the right thing. Perhaps not. Perhaps the ACC will be raided by the financial kings, the SEC?

What bugs me is that the ACC North will be a 2 team conference, 3 at most if UCon comes, and that is a big if. It is far inferior to the Big East. And now we have the possibility of NYC home games. This is a big gamble in terms of our fan base.

Football drives the revenue bus, but there is value to playing to your strength. Basketball is our strength. We are joining a league, ACC North, that is no better than the A-10. The only team with potential to improve is the Terps, due to Baltimore. The rest are perpetual nobodies that never benefited from ACC association in terms of becoming basketball relevant. There is no reason to believe that they will get better due to the presence of Pitt and us.

What if you could see Russia from your door?

 

[AlaskaSU]

The ACC was going to get to 14. period. If that meant they did it with UConn and Rutgers because Syracuse and Pitt said so, so be it. The important thing was that they get to 14 teams so they could reopen the contract with ESPN. Anyone that thinks remaining in an unchanged Big East was even remotely an option is just choosing to pretend an option existed that didn't, wouldn't and couldn't. The choices Syracuse had were to join the ACC, or stay in the Dying Big East while some other schools joined the ACC.

The ACC does not want UCon or Rutgirls. Would you? UCon is begging for an invite. Its not happening: 1) academics, 2) not a clean program, 3) Boston College is opposed. If Calhoun leaves and they clean up their act for several years, it could happen, but not anytime soon.

Our knee jerk justification for being the first to kill the Big East is that the ACC would have taken 2 other Big East teams. Who??? However, the SEC could take W. Virginia, and who knows what The Big Whatever might have done? Therefore, we had no choice, but not because the ACC would have taken Rutgirls and UCon.

 

[Cusefan95]

The ACC does not want UCon or Rutgirls. Would you? UCon is begging for an invite. Its not happening: 1) academics, 2) not a clean program, 3) Boston College is opposed. If Calhoun leaves and they clean up their act for several years, it could happen, but not anytime soon.

Our knee jerk justification for being the first to kill the Big East is that the ACC would have taken 2 other Big East teams. Who??? However, the SEC could take W. Virginia, and who knows what The Big Whatever might have done? Therefore, we had no choice, but not because the ACC would have taken Rutgirls and UCon.

Whatever. The ACC was going to 14 teams for the reasons I put in my original response. Not inviting UConn after Pitt and Syracuse are already in the ACC doesn't tell us sheet about what the ACC would have done if Pitt and Syracuse declined. I don't know for sure that they would have invited UConn and Rutgers - but I'm 110% sure they were getting to 14 teams so they could renegotiate their contract with ESPN.

You seem to think that if Syracuse and Pitt said no, the ACC response would have been "golly gee, shucks and darn, I guess we're going to be stuck with this lousy contract that massively underpays us relative to the market.". It's just a flat out idiotic viewpoint. Lemme help you out - the ACC was getting to 14 teams. Let me know who you think the ACC would have gone after once Syracuse and Pitt said no. Some additional help - if they went to Notre Dame, Penn State, or Texas all of them would have said no, too... So if those are your picks scratch them off the list and keep moving down to the next available candidates. Once you do that, if you aren't completely insane with your selections, you'll see why there wasn't another alternative for Syracuse. Because absolutely, positively, 100% that two other Big East programs would be celebrating their inclusion in the ACC while we would be trying to figure out how to remain relevant in college athletics right now.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The consensus is that we would have been bridesmaids because, 1) other schools would have accepted, and 2) the Big East was destined for oblivion. What if Pitt and SU said no thanks.

1) The ACC wanted an expanded footprint with acceptable schools. UCon is unacceptable due to a hard earned and well deserved shady reputation. Rutgers has a case but they have no following. Everyone else is clearly unsuitable for the ACC as basketball onlies are out of consideration and the Dames are not interested in marriage. The Ville and W. Virginia do not cut it in academics nor do they expand the ACC footprint, etc.

The ACC wants to stay on the east coast. That would rule out Kansas and other Big 12 refugees.

2) With the addition of TCU and the availability of Big 12 refugees the Big East could have added a couple of plums, and split into two leagues with some provision for inter league ties like a Big East challenge similar to ACC/Big10.

Like any decision, there are risks that go with both options. Perhaps we did the right thing. Perhaps not. Perhaps the ACC will be raided by the financial kings, the SEC?

What bugs me is that the ACC North will be a 2 team conference, 3 at most if UCon comes, and that is a big if. It is far inferior to the Big East. And now we have the possibility of NYC home games. This is a big gamble in terms of our fan base.

Football drives the revenue bus, but there is value to playing to your strength. Basketball is our strength. We are joining a league, ACC North, that is no better than the A-10. The only team with potential to improve is the Terps, due to Baltimore. The rest are perpetual nobodies that never benefited from ACC association in terms of becoming basketball relevant. There is no reason to believe that they will get better due to the presence of Pitt and us.

As Doctor Gross said in his interview, he was taking the 50 year view of the move, and from that perspective it is very unlikely that the Big East is a survivor as a major conference. In fact, it's unlikely they survive the next 5-10 years as a BCS conference, unless they play things really well (which they have failed to do so far) in the next round of moves to be made.

 

[sufan]

The consensus is that we would have been bridesmaids because, 1) other schools would have accepted, and 2) the Big East was destined for oblivion. What if Pitt and SU said no thanks.

1) The ACC wanted an expanded footprint with acceptable schools. UCon is unacceptable due to a hard earned and well deserved shady reputation. Rutgers has a case but they have no following. Everyone else is clearly unsuitable for the ACC as basketball onlies are out of consideration and the Dames are not interested in marriage. The Ville and W. Virginia do not cut it in academics nor do they expand the ACC footprint, etc.

The ACC wants to stay on the east coast. That would rule out Kansas and other Big 12 refugees.

2) With the addition of TCU and the availability of Big 12 refugees the Big East could have added a couple of plums, and split into two leagues with some provision for inter league ties like a Big East challenge similar to ACC/Big10.

Like any decision, there are risks that go with both options. Perhaps we did the right thing. Perhaps not. Perhaps the ACC will be raided by the financial kings, the SEC?

What bugs me is that the ACC North will be a 2 team conference, 3 at most if UCon comes, and that is a big if. It is far inferior to the Big East. And now we have the possibility of NYC home games. This is a big gamble in terms of our fan base.

Football drives the revenue bus, but there is value to playing to your strength. Basketball is our strength. We are joining a league, ACC North, that is no better than the A-10. The only team with potential to improve is the Terps, due to Baltimore. The rest are perpetual nobodies that never benefited from ACC association in terms of becoming basketball relevant. There is no reason to believe that they will get better due to the presence of Pitt and us.

--------------------

This may be hard to understand but I really believe this was not a difficult decision for SU as a university to make:

1) ACC provides long term financial security and stability and interesting competition for SU athletic teams.

2) more importantly, this decision is about the schools the University wants to be associated with:

Pitt, BC, Maryland, UNC, Duke, UVA, Miami, and so on

versus Louisville, USF, Cinn, WVU, TCU (in Texas).

This is really not a difficult decision.

At least one of and perhaps both RU and UConn are very likely to be in the ACC (or Big 10) within 5 years.

Either would jump within a minute if offered an opportunity and both offer value: RU offers its location as the state university of NJ; UConn has a strong BB program and can help consolidate the New England and NY regional markets.

3) SU is joining a north-south ACC with 5 private schools (BC, Wake, Duke, Miami, SU) and medium size public universitities; a much better fit than the factory size, massive state schools of the BIg 10.

4) You are perhaps aware that currently the only Big East football team in the top 25 is WVU.

5) In the future SU can schedule OOC from a position of strength:

I would be very surprised if SU doesn't schedule Nova, GT, St. Johns, ND, UConn OOC on a regular basis.

Hopefully SU continues to play RU and UConn in football on a regular basis.

6) Pitt's decision wasn't based on what SU did.

So the only real question is whether the ACC would have taken Pitt and UConn or Pitt and RU, if SU said it wanted to align itself with UL, Cinn, WVU, USF, TCU and so on.

Of course the current rumor is the Big 12 may be expanding to 12 and invite some of the "left-behind" Big East schools: then what?

 

[AlaskaSU]

Whatever. The ACC was going to 14 teams for the reasons I put in my original response. Not inviting UConn after Pitt and Syracuse are already in the ACC doesn't tell us sheet about what the ACC would have done if Pitt and Syracuse declined. I don't know for sure that they would have invited UConn and Rutgers - but I'm 110% sure they were getting to 14 teams so they could renegotiate their contract with ESPN.

You seem to think that if Syracuse and Pitt said no, the ACC response would have been "golly gee, shucks and darn, I guess we're going to be stuck with this lousy contract that massively underpays us relative to the market.". It's just a flat out idiotic viewpoint. Lemme help you out - the ACC was getting to 14 teams. Let me know who you think the ACC would have gone after once Syracuse and Pitt said no. Some additional help - if they went to Notre Dame, Penn State, or Texas all of them would have said no, too... So if those are your picks scratch them off the list and keep moving down to the next available candidates. Once you do that, if you aren't completely insane with your selections, you'll see why there wasn't another alternative for Syracuse. Because absolutely, positively, 100% that two other Big East programs would be celebrating their inclusion in the ACC while we would be trying to figure out how to remain relevant in college athletics right now.

http://www.bcheights.com/sports/hoops-and-recruiting-hurt-by-realignment-1.2625912 read this and tell me if BC would ever vote for UCon. And the article does not even mention the bad blood from Ucon's lawsuit against BC.

My argument is perhaps a bit too subtle for you. The ACC had no place to go if not for Pitt and Cuse. Rutgirls does not bring market share and UCon is a non-starter, at least for now. Never-the-less, the Beast is and was threatened by the SEC and the Big Whatever. We dismiss the negative ramifications of our departure by saying that the ACC would have poached other Beast teams. This is too facile. On the other hand, I do believe that we had no choice but to go to the ACC. It is a better fit than the Big Whatever.

 

[Cusefan95]

If I'm Gross with an offer in my hand from the ACC, I can't afford to gamble that the ACC has nowhere else to go - I need to jump at the offer because if I guess wrong and the ACC picks up two other Big East programs... Syracuse is then flat out screwed. I think the whole "we've gotten requests from ten schools" thing was nonsense from the ACC in an effort to appear to have a stronger hand than they did.

I also think the ACC was getting to 14 teams no matter what..if Syracuse said no, the ACC would have swallowed hard and offered Rutgers, or West Virginia, or maybe even UConn. I know what people keep saying about BC, but BC knows the value of a dollar and if the only way from BC to get more dollars was to offer UConn...BC would make the right business decision and bury the hatchet. If Syracuse said no we'd probably be on the outside looking in wishing we took the ACC offer...and even if that's not true it was still way to big of a risk to take to say no.