What is more important winning an extra game or the young players playing major minutes and getting better for next year?

[Alsacs]

If playing Marek,Buddy high 30 MPG may allow us to go 16-15 rather 14-17 with the young guys Guerrier, Edwards, Goodine not getting as many minutes what is better?

I think it’s better to allow the young guys to play major minutes and develop during conference play than seeing the rotations we saw Oklahoma State and Penn State.

We all know about the streak but in the record books it’s already gone because of the sanctions wiping out wins.

I would rather the young players get better than an extra win. I am not saying play to lose but the short rotations shouldn’t start games like we did against Oklahoma State where we went 13 minutes before a single sub.

 

[Newhouser]

It makes no sense for anyone on this team other than Hughes to play 35 minutes. Or 30 for that matter.

 

[cuse10]

You still play to win. Even bad teams aren't sacrificing starter minutes to get young guys experience. Recruits have to come to college better prepared to contribute.

 

[djcon57]

It’s made sense to play more players for years. But as I’ve been told...college kids don’t get tired or something.

It’s how players have been chased off...and why we now have absolutely no depth.

 

[Gabjon]

Losing is NEVER good for the culture of a sports team. It is NEVER good for the physique of athletes. Losing is NEVER good for recruiting.

The best players play and if you think you're go out and prove it! If your culture is not about competing and winning you have no culture!

 

[DoctorBombay]

If playing Marek,Buddy high 30 MPG may allow us to go 16-15 rather 14-17 with the young guys Guerrier, Edwards, Goodine not getting as many minutes what is better?

I think it’s better to allow the young guys to play major minutes and develop during conference play than seeing the rotations we saw Oklahoma State and Penn State.

We all know about the streak but in the record books it’s already gone because of the sanctions wiping out wins.

I would rather the young players get better than an extra win. I am not saying play to lose but the short rotations shouldn’t start games like we did against Oklahoma State where we went 13 minutes before a single sub.

Is this a rhetorical question? We all know what Boeheim do- it’s always about THIS game, today, right now, no matter what. A select few guys will get run into the ground while others watch & ride the bench. Same excuse each time of “they/he, is/are “not ready”...whatever the hell that means. And we all know the best way to get someone “ready” is by benching them & making them a cheerleader, amirite?
When you have exceptional talent, then it makes sense to keep them on the court, no quarrel w/ that. But when you have a dearth of talent available, and potentially better options on the bench, why stick to the same stubborn philosophy? SMDH

 

[Alsacs]

Losing is NEVER good for the culture of a sports team. It is NEVER good for the physique of athletes. Losing is NEVER good for recruiting.

The best players play and if you think you're go out and prove it! If your culture is not about competing and winning you have no culture!

I am not saying play to lose.
I am saying JB has been coaching every game like it’s the Finals game 7 with his rotations.
That isn’t good for the young players on this team.

He needs to give more minutes to players on this team. I am not calling any player out but it’s obvious beyond Hughes nobody deserves high 30 MPG.

 

[pfister1]

It’s made sense to play more players for years. But as I’ve been told...college kids don’t get tired or something.

It’s how players have been chased off...and why we now have absolutely no depth.

That's false. There are no players that have been chased off by not being given playing time that would be here to add depth this season. None...zero.

Since 2015-16 we've had three players that have transferred, they all got significant playing time prior to leaving.

Kaleb Joseph - had too much playing time and couldn't handle the level of competition and he would have exhausted his eligibility by now if he had stayed.
Taurean Thompson - played in 34 of 34 , starting 21 of them
Matthew Moyer - played in 35 of 37 games, starting 20 of them.

 

[cuse10]

Is this a rhetorical question? We all know what Boeheim do- it’s always about THIS game, today, right now, no matter what. A select few guys will get run into the ground while others watch & ride the bench. Same excuse each time of “they/he, is/are “not ready”...whatever the hell that means. And we all know the best way to get someone “ready” is by benching them & making them a cheerleader, amirite?
When you have exceptional talent, then it makes sense to keep them on the court, no quarrel w/ that. But when you have a dearth of talent available, and potentially better options on the bench, why stick to the same stubborn philosophy? SMDH

You can clearly see when someone isn't ready to play. This isn't a Syracuse thing either. Guys are sitting because they aren't ready to contribute. One thing to dominate against high schoolers that will never sniff collegiate ball at any level. Another to do it against 18-23 year olds with bodies fully developed and equal or more athleticism. It's across the country which is why the transfer portal has become free agency.

 

[Gabjon]

I am not saying play to lose.
I am saying JB has been coaching every game like it’s the Finals game 7 with his rotations.
That isn’t good for the young players on this team.

He needs to give more minutes to players on this team. I am not calling any player out but it’s obvious beyond Hughes nobody deserves high 30 MPG.

I disagree with premise that the delta of wins would be 1. I also believe minutes are earned in practice and lost in games.

So if your not practicing well you don't play, if you don't follow the game plan you don't play, but you don't lose minutes to a guy you are out performing in practice because the coach wants to develop that player. If that's the case why practice? why practice hard?

 

[pfister1]

When you have exceptional talent, then it makes sense to keep them on the court, no quarrel w/ that. But when you have a dearth of talent available, and potentially better options on the bench, why stick to the same stubborn philosophy? SMDH

Where are the potentially better options on the bench? Just because you are getting to see one guy make mistakes or not produce and another guy is sitting doesn't mean the guy on the bench is a better option. JB sees these guys a lot in practice, he has a pretty good idea what they are capable of doing.

Despite Gerry's declaration of Marek as Elite, I don't think you should take MD playing big minutes as JB's endorsement that he is spectacular. I think you should take it as a comment on how bad other guys must look in practice.

 

[DoctorBombay]

You can clearly see when someone isn't ready to play. This isn't a Syracuse thing either. Guys are sitting because they aren't ready to contribute. One thing to dominate against high schoolers that will never sniff collegiate ball at any level. Another to do it against 18-23 year olds with bodies fully developed and equal or more athleticism. It's across the country which is why the transfer portal has become free agency.

Fair enough.
But, IMO, it always comes back to two things, recruiting and development.
Why do we see so many of our recruits “not ready”, especially lately? And why don’t we develop guys during the course of the season by actually, oh, I don’t know...playing them in games??
I believe it’s more a philosophical issue than anything else. Two of my fav coaches when it comes to bench/depth are Pitino and JT2. They actually went DEEP into their benches and recruited w/ that philosophy in mind, whereas we’ve lost entire seasons because of one player not being available. Again, we lose a Melo in ‘03, the ship doesn’t happen. But...we seriously can’t do better than 2 years of Marek at center because, player (fill-in-the-blank) is “not ready”? Who thought this was a good idea? And are we so devoid of options that he’s the only one available? This didn’t happen overnight, the guys a junior, for Pete’s sake!
This season is shaping up to be pivotal, especially on a personal level for me. I love JB, appreciate all he’s done for SU and cbb. But i find myself questioning some of his philosophies more and more as this goes on...more than ever. No choice but to let it play out of course, but the belief that immediate change might be a necessity, is starting to grow w/ me. JMHO

 

[DoctorBombay]

Where are the potentially better options on the bench? Just because you are getting to see one guy make mistakes or not produce and another guy is sitting doesn't mean the guy on the bench is a better option. JB sees these guys a lot in practice, he has a pretty good idea what they are capable of doing.

Despite Gerry's declaration of Marek as Elite, I don't think you should take MD playing big minutes as JB's endorsement that he is spectacular. I think you should take it as a comment on how bad other guys must look in practice.

And that’s what makes it so scary. I admit to being in deep denial about this fact, and the implications therein.

 

[cuse10]

Fair enough.
But, IMO, it always comes back to two things, recruiting and development.
Why do we see so many of our recruits “not ready”, especially lately? And why don’t we develop guys during the course of the season by actually, oh, I don’t know...playing them in games??
I believe it’s more a philosophical issue than anything else. Two of my fav coaches when it comes to bench/depth are Pitino and JT2. They actually went DEEP into their benches and recruited w/ that philosophy in mind, whereas we’ve lost entire seasons because of one player not being available. Again, we lose a Melo in ‘03, the ship doesn’t happen. But...we seriously can’t do better than 2 years of Marek at center because, player (fill-in-the-blank) is “not ready”? Who thought this was a good idea? And are we so devoid of options that he’s the only one available? This didn’t happen overnight, the guys a junior, for Pete’s sake!
This season is shaping up to be pivotal, especially on a personal level for me. I love JB, appreciate all he’s done for SU and cbb. But i find myself questioning some of his philosophies more and more as this goes on...more than ever. No choice but to let it play out of course, but the belief that immediate change might be a necessity, is starting to grow w/ me. JMHO

The not ready thing goes back to high school. It's why tape and recruiting isn't an exact science. It's until you actually get them to where you can see all of their flaws. This is where coaching comes in to build a player up to the kind of asset that is valuable. The coaching from Boeheim to his assistants has been very poor in this aspect. Player development is something that sorely lacks at SU and his hands off approach is a reason why.

 

[UD1954]

My guess is that Marek doesn't start practicing basketball until the season starts...which is why l think his shooting will get better as the season goes along.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

My guess is that Marek doesn't start practicing basketball until the season starts...which is why l think his shooting will get better as the season goes along.

Especially if you have surgery for a broken finger during the Summer.

 

[Alsacs]

Especially if you have surgery for a broken finger during the Summer.

Jim Boeheim himself in the Penn State postgame said Marek hasn’t shot the ball well since his freshman year.
He didn’t use the surgery as an excuse.
Marek’s player development has been poor and that is coaching.

 

[OrangeDW]

You play to win. And frankly, playing a real center at backup center rather than Marek does not go against “playing to win”. We aren’t winning any extra game because Marek is at center. So you go with Edwards.

This isn’t playing, say, a limited veteran like Baye Keita over a raw young guy with more potential. In that case you go with the veteran Keita because he’s more effective at the moment and you’re trying to win and he’s actually a center and capable of helping you win.

This is not that. Marek is not more effective at the moment. He would be if he was 6’11 or if he was 225 but he’s not either. He has the brain and the heart but not the tools for center. He’s too short and too skinny. One could be compensated for, but not both. It’s a waste of time playing him there this year. Edwards is at least tall enough to be there. He’ll be able to block some shots and get some rebounds. And catch the ball and dunk it once in awhile. At minimum.

 

[OrangeDW]

My opinion on what the minutes should look like for this group:

Hughes: 38
Girard: 28
Buddy: 25
Marek: 25
Quincy: 25
Sidibe: 25
Edwards: 15
Goodine: 19

 

[DoctorBombay]

The not ready thing goes back to high school. It's why tape and recruiting isn't an exact science. It's until you actually get them to where you can see all of their flaws. This is where coaching comes in to build a player up to the kind of asset that is valuable. The coaching from Boeheim to his assistants has been very poor in this aspect. Player development is something that sorely lacks at SU and his hands off approach is a reason why.

Precisely. We’re in full agreement here, and it’s a major reason we’re in this position today. Indeed it’s a testament to JB’s greatness that we haven’t totally fallen off the cliff, a’la UConn, GTown, SJU, etc. The one constant being JB, and that’s soon about to change.

 

[Alsacs]

My opinion on what the minutes should look like for this group:

Hughes: 38
Girard: 28
Buddy: 25
Marek: 25
Quincy: 25
Sidibe: 25
Edwards: 15
Goodine: 19

Braswell?
I thought he could get some of Boeheim’s minutes but JB didn’t sit him last game.

 

[OrangeDW]

Braswell?
I thought he could get some of Boeheim’s minutes but JB didn’t sit him last game.

I’m of the opinion that 8 is the ideal rotation. On a given game, if Quincy or Marek is sucking - give him 10 minutes and if he’s hot leave him in there. Or if somebody is inexplicably playing zone against us, then sure...get him in there a lot. Personally I think you go man against SU all day, and for us I think we’d need Quincy in there for his potential to get to the rim and score around the hoop and get to the line. And Marek’s passing is vital to our backdoor cuts working. And Hughes is our best player.

Though...Hughes to the 2, Braswell at the 3, and cutting Buddy and Goodine’s minutes is a possibility against man too if Buddy is sucking and Goodine is doing nothing offensively.

My minutes werent set in stone for every single game...just a general guide. I see Braswell as 9th man, but worth giving a crack to in certain games and situations.

 

[newmexicuse]

The fallacy in this thread is the assumption of choosing between 14 and 16 wins.

Very optimistic imho.

 

[pearl31]

If playing Marek,Buddy high 30 MPG may allow us to go 16-15 rather 14-17 with the young guys Guerrier, Edwards, Goodine not getting as many minutes what is better?

I think it’s better to allow the young guys to play major minutes and develop during conference play than seeing the rotations we saw Oklahoma State and Penn State.

We all know about the streak but in the record books it’s already gone because of the sanctions wiping out wins.

I would rather the young players get better than an extra win. I am not saying play to lose but the short rotations shouldn’t start games like we did against Oklahoma State where we went 13 minutes before a single sub.

now THIS is a question you need to call into the coach's show with!

 

[Alsacs]

now THIS is a question you need to call into the coach's show with!

I don’t give a chit if Jim Boeheim ends up with 1050 wins or if he ends up 1053 wins.
I want the team to be a contender for the NC.
Good teams lose regular season games.
It doesn’t matter to me if we go 25-6 and 23-8 in the regular season as long as the team is good.
Teams have gotten 1 and 2 seeds with 7-9 losses now.

He coaches every game like it’s game 7 of the Finals.
That is his right it doesn’t mean our rotations hurt player development.
Hopkins ran the practices when he was here I really don’t know if since Hop left JB has done more day to day in the practices.
That is more of a question I would ask.
There is no way certain players should be playing high 30 MPGs that is the point I am making. He thinks playing these players high 30 MPGs help him win that game when the younger players need more PT.
JB isn’t above questioning.