What we took for granted about JB.

[swish7]

Love you Swish, but I think this is a bad take.

Both deserved firing.

The replacements were horrific in both cases.

But that’s a completely different issue.

I get it. My point is, we gained nothing with those hires & lost something better with those fires.

 

[Archbold44]

Whether you like the zone or hated it, JB was able to recruit a handful of guys to play it and fill in top recruits around them. Regardless of whether players shoot better today or not, the reality is that shooters will almost always regress to the mean. If they are cold in the first half, we build our lead. If they are hot in the first half, we make our run in the second half when they get overconfident.

Edit: hit save too soon. The benefit to having a system is that you can fit the pieces. At least you know what you are looking for. A certain type of PG... a certain type of SG... a certain type of SF and PF... and a certain type of C... but always willing to bend for a superstar at a position. Red has a better team this year, but it seems like the pieces do not fit anything in particular. Sure, peak Virginia and peak Villanova and peak UConn and most Duke teams gave us fits. Those teams were at their peak for a reason. And we usually were competitive. So sad how far we have fallen. From 34k fans in the Dome to nearly empty upper deck. Sad times. If the next coach has everyone shooting free throws under-handed, but we win games... who cares? Zone? Who cares? M2M? Who cares?

 

[Briancuse]

. What about Pitino?

Pitino isnt leaving his vitamin water gravy train or winged foot, st johns will be his last job.

 

[IthacaMatt]

JB never lost the locker room. It was always HIS locker room. You either toed the line or you sat in the doghouse. Another part of his genius was that he understood that you couldn’t motivate every player the same way. He coached each player the way they needed to be coached.

Great point. Of course, always winning helps.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We didn’t lose because teams three’d us to death. We lost because we stopped landing recruits that fit the defense.

JB’s zone and offense depended on dynamic Forwards with the athleticism and size to play the zone well, and SFs who could flat out get buckets (true SFs, not hybrids). We stopped getting those guys. We ended up with one dimensional guys or guys lacking athleticism or size and just making do.

The zone can defend threes. You can play zone against a team with 4 shooters and win without a Herculean effort.

I think the zone is a scapegoat. The NBA has adopted zone more at a time when 3-point shooters are more prevalent than ever. You have to have the guys, though. We don’t have the guys.

The thing is, though, that more and more players could not just make a 21 foot shot, but they can now make a 25 foot shot.

That made the zone spread out even more. He already moved the forwards up to the foul line, so we had 4 guys guarding the line, compared to usually 3 shooters.

But the openings in the middle became bigger and bigger,
Centers contesting corner threes became impractical.

And corner threes suddenly became the ones that people made the most, when in the early days, it was more elbow threes or from the top of the key, where you had the backboard to give you depth on the shot.

I think that if JB had brought the forwards down a bit, where they could contest both the wing three, and the corner three, and we left the center in the lane to block shots and rebound, it would have worked better in the later days. My two cents.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yep - the same 6 foot flat gunner also went to the final 8 with Clemson. Did Richmond ever make a final 8? By all accounts Kadary was the next coming of Magic Johnson. How isn’t he playing in the NBA? Maybe Autrys career started and ended when he ran off Girard and took in Starling.

Some of you feel Starling is Red's "designated star"- and maybe he is. But I think the star is Donnie, and I think Starling clearly recognizes that.
You all disagree and think that he shoots too much.

He has had 3 or more assists in 9 of our 21 games, which is pretty decent.
I really don't think he's a ball hog.
Anthony stops the ball waaay more than JJ does.

And in fact, for those who ask why Fennell got zero run, well, maybe if he had a rich dad, we'd have played him 10-15 minutes a game, too.

I don't think Fennell is noticeably worse than Anthony is. In fact I'm almost certain he's a better dribbler.

 

[Archbold44]

The thing is, though, that more and more players could make not just a 21 foot shot, but a 25 foot shot.

That made the zone spread out even more. He already moved the forwards up to the foul line, so we had 4 guys guarding the line, compared to usually 3 shooters.

But the openings in the middle became bigger and bigger,
Centers contesting corner threes became impractical.

And corner threes suddenly became the ones that people made the most, when in the early days, it was more elbow threes or from the top of the key, where you had the backboard to give you depth on the shot.

I think that if JB had brought the forwards down a bit, where they could contest both the wing three, and the corner three, and we left the center in the lane to block shots and rebound, it would have worked better in the later days. My two cents.

You just need better athletes than what we have. I get SOME teams can shoot from 25 feet, but that is a lower percentage shot that 21 feet. It will even out. These are 18-22 year olds. JB dared them to beat him.
Plus, the average OOC foe was not ready to deal with it yet... I think that would be more the case in the NIL era, when players are just getting used to each other.

Not saying we should do it. I am just saying if you are going to do it, do it right. But do something elite.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Great point. Of course, always winning helps.

One championship. 40 years

 

[OrangeFoo]

I get it. My point is, we gained nothing with those hires & lost something better with those fires.

I gotta disagree here. History shows that the guy who takes over after the “guy” usually fails in s big way. If we had kept JB we would have probably have had slightly better results, but I doubt we would have been dancing. I also don’t think we would have Alex Kline to pound the portal or build the NIL infra because, remember, JB basically stopped trying in recruiting.

So if we had kept JB we would be in year three of continued frustration, limited NIL investment and looking forward to three years of Autry.

Firing JB accomplished one big thing. It started the three years clock on his successor. We had to do it.

 

[Cusefan95]

I gotta disagree here. History shows that the guy who takes over after the “guy” usually fails in s big way. If we had kept JB we would have probably have had slightly better results, but I doubt we would have been dancing. I also don’t think we would have Alex Kline to pound the portal or build the NIL infra because, remember, JB basically stopped trying in recruiting.

So if we had kept JB we would be in year three of continued frustration, limited NIL investment and looking forward to three years of Autry.

Firing JB accomplished one big thing. It started the three years clock on his successor. We had to do it.

Agree. The fact that both processes to replace coaches were screwed up train wrecks doesn’t change the fact changes needed to be made. JB hit the ceiling in 2021, sneaking into the tourney was as good as it was going to be - and college sports changed so much since 2021 that it’s unlikely he’d have even gotten close to that.

I slightly disagree in that I think the only positive if JB was allowed to completely run the program off a cliff over the last three years is he would have burned through more of his political capital in the process. We could have avoided the internal pressure to “keep it within the family” and had a legitimate national search. We’d still be trying to recruit kids now who think Syracuse is a program that used to be good and there would be a massive rebuilding process ahead, so we’d be in about the same spot as we are now.

 

[NineOneSeven]

True but in 2016, Huerter’s year, we were under an 8 scholarship sanction from the 2015-2016 through 2018-2019 seasons for that crazy 8 year NCAA investigation. It affected our recruiting in that period and restricted signing recruits we were interested in. If I recall correctly, we wanted Huerter to wait a year, go prep or something which he didn’t want to do. Hop left during this timeline also. I think many people forget the timing and how it affected the end of JB’s coaching career too. Covid started the following year (2020-2021) after sanctions ended - tough stretch. Hope I recall correctly.

Sounds right. In fact, I’m surprised nobody has blamed Autry’s lack of success on those sanctions.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Sometime late in his tenure during the post-game interviews, JB said something that completely summed up what his genius was. He said something to the effect that everything he did, he did to win the game in front of him. We all hated his short rotation, how quickly he pulled young talent out of a game, how he didn’t allow the bench to mature in game experience. That’s how I felt.
JB acted to win every game —rotations and developing talent for other games down the line be damned. (Remember how quickly he pulled Christmas as an underclassman, but that worked out alright).
We took for granted a kind of genius that drove many of us crazy, but was genius nonetheless.

He also was a genius at judging talent. Hak, the General, and on and on were diamonds in the rough.

He was also smart enough to know that being in the ACC would kill our NBA program. Our traditional rivalries were foundational to our success as we're our established pipelines.

Back in the day, when I was new car shopping it had to be orange. Now it is embarrassing to be a fan. I would sacrifice football and leave the ACC to save BB. Allowing 77 points to a team that did not even make the playoffs should send a message.

 

[Newhouser]

Program ended when JB got content when Buddy emerged and JB was content coaching the family reunion. Brought in guys that were easy to coach and didn't want to recruit talents that could challenge Buddy's alph role.

The program died the day Auburn pounded us and Jabari Smith MFed JB to his face and Girard and Jimmy sat at scorers table waiting to check in and did nothing.

We have never recovered.

 

[Cuseball]

One championship. 40 years

• Only 9 coaches in the history of Division 1 Men's College basketball have more Final Fours (only 8 if you take away Calipari's two vacated Final Fours)

• Only 17 coaches in history have won multiple titles. That number is reduced to only 11 if you take out the 6 from the modern era (pre 1985)
• Only 3 coaches with more NCAA tournament wins (soon to more with Izzo, Self and Cal about to pass)

I would say that is a hell of a lot winning at little old Syracuse. it is without a doubt that Boeheim is one of the all time coaching greats.

Cuse!

 

[CuseFaninVT]

• Only 9 coaches in the history of Division 1 Men's College basketball have more Final Fours (only 8 if you take away Calipari's two vacated Final Fours)

• Only 17 coaches in history have won multiple titles. That number is reduced to only 11 if you take out the 6 from the modern era (pre 1985)
• Only 3 coaches with more NCAA tournament wins (soon to more with Izzo, Self and Cal about to pass)

I would say that is a hell of a lot winning at little old Syracuse. it is without a doubt that Boeheim is one of the all time coaching greats.

Cuse!

I’d say it’s more a product of longevity. He was there longer than nearly everyone else. But if he were as great as many here believe, we’d have more than one championship. That’s how coaches are judged in the end.

 

[MikeSU02]

Some of you feel Starling is Red's "designated star"- and maybe he is. But I think the star is Donnie, and I think Starling clearly recognizes that.
You all disagree and think that he shoots too much.

He has had 3 or more assists in 9 of our 21 games, which is pretty decent.
I really don't think he's a ball hog.
Anthony stops the ball waaay more than JJ does.

And in fact, for those who ask why Fennell got zero run, well, maybe if he had a rich dad, we'd have played him 10-15 minutes a game, too.

I don't think Fennell is noticeably worse than Anthony is. In fact I'm almost certain he's a better dribbler.

If you shoot 19 FGAs and have 17 pts and have 0 assists, you are a designated star by the coach. He has the same stats he has had his whole career -- always inefficient. Always. Red allowed it.

However, that doesn't mean that Kiyan is awesome or even good at this point, just like JJ. Kiyan has regressed, has severe tunnel vision, especially on breaks and, at best, is indifferent on defense and has to get much stronger. However, he is a frosh and has a lot of offensive ability, he just needs to be coached and fix his body going into next year or else he'll be in the same boat as JJ -- a multi-year inefficient player who likes to shoot at a high volume.

I think Fennell is receiving the backup QB syndrome a bit -- the guy not playing always has talent until proven otherwise.

Red hitched his wagon to JJ.

Our top three in FGA/game and then their TS%:
Donnie: 12.6 / 61.6%
JJ: 10.7 / 48.5%
Kingz: 8.0 / 58%

What are we doing here? This is just a throwback when the stats were showing how inefficient we were in the midst of JB's end of tenure slide but people would contort themselves to ignore what the stats were showing.

JJ is who he is. Has been his whole career. Red is the problem. But JJ is not any sort of solution.

 

[MikeSU02]

The thing is, though, that more and more players could not just make a 21 foot shot, but they can now make a 25 foot shot.

That made the zone spread out even more. He already moved the forwards up to the foul line, so we had 4 guys guarding the line, compared to usually 3 shooters.

But the openings in the middle became bigger and bigger,
Centers contesting corner threes became impractical.

And corner threes suddenly became the ones that people made the most, when in the early days, it was more elbow threes or from the top of the key, where you had the backboard to give you depth on the shot.

I think that if JB had brought the forwards down a bit, where they could contest both the wing three, and the corner three, and we left the center in the lane to block shots and rebound, it would have worked better in the later days. My two cents.

I know i've disagreed with you a lot about JJ. But I'm 100% with you here.

The geometry of basketball changed once analytics pushed shots to be from three and the rim and players started practicing shooting from 25 like a normal jumper.

Players hitting shots that are a few feet longer make the floor's square footage to cover immensely harder.

 

[DoctahLexus]

I’d say it’s more a product of longevity. He was there longer than nearly everyone else. But if he were as great as many here believe, we’d have more than one championship. That’s how coaches are judged in the end.

No, that is how you are choosing to judge JB since it is by far the category that makes him look the worst. You are salty about how his time here ended and its role in the current situation. You are a fan in the first place because we were one of the elite teams in the country for a very long time.

From 1980-2012 JB had TEN big east regular season titles. The hardest conference in the sport and we were the best regular season team in that conference almost a third of the time! His big east regular season record is by far the best of any team during that time. So the argument people make that we just got our wins against cupcakes is BS.

And for the people who argue that we coasted on talent and didn't do it with coaching, Jerami Grant just became like only the third (edit-4th) guy from cuse EVER to hit 10,000 points in the league. Oshae Brissett is a top 20 cuse NBA player!! His teams were not packed with future NBA studs, and we still had an insane run in the toughest conference in the sport. You are blinded by the last 10-12 years. I understand why given how bad it had been, but still, acting like JB was not an elite coach is weak sauce.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

No, that is how you are choosing to judge JB since it is by far the category that makes him look the worst. You are salty about how his time here ended and its role in the current situation. You are a fan in the first place because we were one of the elite teams in the country for a very long time.

From 1980-2012 JB had TEN big east regular season titles. The hardest conference in the sport and we were the best regular season team in that conference almost a third of the time! His big east regular season record is by far the best of any team during that time. So the argument people make that we just got our wins against cupcakes is BS.

And for the people who argue that we coasted on talent and didn't do it with coaching, Jerami Grant just became like only the third guy from cuse EVER to hit 10,000 points in the league. Oshae Brissett is a top 20 cuse NBA player!! His teams were not packed with future NBA studs, and we still had an insane run in the toughest conference in the sport. You are blinded by the last 10-12 years. I understand why given how bad it had been, but still, acting like JB was not an elite coach is weak sauce.

He was elite. A long time ago. But he wasn’t successful enough in my opinion. Needed a once in a lifetime player to get over the hump and win a chip. It is what it is.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I know i've disagreed with you a lot about JJ. But I'm 100% with you here.

The geometry of basketball changed once analytics pushed shots to be from three and the rim and players started practicing shooting from 25 like a normal jumper.

Players hitting shots that are a few feet longer make the floor's square footage to cover immensely harder.

Agree too but that’s why he tried to get mobile long centers vs the beefier shot blocking centers who were much less mobile than the centers we used to have - later in his coaching career. Ironically today we’re seeing many of the long mobile centers Boeheim would have coveted in his later career who now can even take 3’s themselves but aren’t really shot blocking rim protectors, in the game today. The center position has changed over time because as both of you pointed out (Mike and Matt) - the game has changed because of the 3 point shot explosion.

 

[DoctahLexus]

He was elite. A long time ago. But he wasn’t successful enough in my opinion. Needed a once in a lifetime player to get over the hump and win a chip. It is what it is.

We needed the whole team to win the natty. We needed Gmac and Hakeem. Heck we needed Duaney. It is hard as hell to win a natty in a single elimination tourney, even with an NBA legend on your team. We had to beat a team that had just destroyed a team with Dwayne Wade on it. The list of elite NBA players who did not win one is long long long. It is not a free natty ticket just because you have a future NBA stud on your team. But you know this. Just hating because of the our recent demise. I get it, but it is still lame.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

We needed the whole team to win the natty. We needed Gmac and Hakeem. Heck we needed Duaney. It is hard as hell to win a natty in a single elimination tourney, even with an NBA legend on your team. We had to beat a team that had just destroyed a team with Dwayne Wade on it. The list of elite NBA players who did not win one is long long long. It is not a free natty ticket just because you have a future NBA stud on your team. But you know this. Just hating because of the our recent demise. I get it, but it is still lame.

I’ve been saying the same thing for years, including before the decline. He shouldn’t have survived the sanctions.

 

[DoctahLexus]

I’ve been saying the same thing for years, including before the decline. He shouldn’t have survived the sanctions.

I am curious what even made you a fan in the first place if you were looking at our team in the early 2010s and going yep, this guy sucks actually. The reason he survived the sanctions is because we just had a run of elite years from the late 2000s to early/mid 2010s. Hindsight is 20/20, but that is why. I am tapping out. Boneyard is two doors down on your right if you want to continue this convo with like minded folk.

 

[Cheriehoop]

We needed the whole team to win the natty. We needed Gmac and Hakeem. Heck we needed Duaney. It is hard as hell to win a natty in a single elimination tourney, even with an NBA legend on your team. We had to beat a team that had just destroyed a team with Dwayne Wade on it. The list of elite NBA players who did not win one is long long long. It is not a free natty ticket just because you have a future NBA stud on your team. But you know this. Just hating because of the our recent demise. I get it, but it is still lame.

Agree. The 2010 team would have won because they were a team that had a star player in Wes but were balanced getting strong contributions from all the players. Opponents couldn’t concentrate their defense to stop just one player or another one would go off. We lost because we lost one key starter, Arinze, despite still having Wes because the special balance that team had was missing.

 

[MikeSU02]

Agree. The 2010 team would have won because they were a team that had an excellent player in Wes but were balanced getting strong. contributions from all the players. Opponents couldn’t concentrate their defense to stop just one player or another one would go off. We lost because we lost one key starter, Arinze, despite still having Wes because the special balance that team had was missing.

Man, we would have WALKED to the title with AO.

We would have had KSU on the short turn after their 2OT game.
We would have had MSU with their injured guard out.
We would have smoked that Duke team.