What will it take to win a NC?

[Dave85]

Just like the 2-3 zone the Orange need to develop some kind of motion system on offense. For the last couple of seasons we've counted on our players creating offense in isolation. Once teams figure out each player's tendencies on offense, we were toast and easy to defend against. The 2-3 zone takes a lot of work to teach in practice. But I think the Orange need to spend more time developing the offense in such a way that is not depended on players in isolation. Some kind of read-react type offensive.

I really liked what Iowa State was doing on offense. They were fun to watch.

 

[orangefan13]

Just like the 2-3 zone the Orange need to develop some kind of motion system on offense. For the last couple of seasons we've counted on our players creating offense in isolation. Once teams figure out each player's tendencies on offense, we were toast and easy to defend against. The 2-3 zone takes a lot of work to teach in practice. But I think the Orange need to spend more time developing the offense in such a way that is not depended on players in isolation. Some kind of read-react type offensive.

I really liked what Iowa State was doing on offense. They were fun to watch.

I see it the other way around we need more isolation players and consistant ones, thats what wins in march. Opposing teams start cutting down on motion sets and set pieces more as the season rolls along. m2m defense gets much better come mid febuary. I think 2 outside threats one that can shoot under alittle pressure off a bounce is always a good thing.

But, if I had my pick I would have two pg's who both can drive finish at the rim with a good midrange pullup/floater (dribble drive is easier for guards then forwards, and it gives you a second ball handler under pressure). One of them tall like Mcw for pressure defense and rebounds. Followed by two forwards who can pull the trigger from outside shooting over 36% one that can shoot under pressure and the other that can hit the offensive boards some. 2 outside shooters that shoot above 40% (icewater in the veins) when wide open. Add a mobile 7 footer in the middle like Fab Melo for the pick and roll, lob pass, offensive boards (give him a short baby hook in the low post if you can also), and some shotblocking presence.

You would get alittle of 09-10 and 11-12 chemistrys combined with that chemistry. Unstoppable players you can ride is always a good thing, it brought UK and Uconn to two title games recently.

Iowa state had 3 guys who shot over 100 3's on the season two shooing 40% from outside and one who shot 34.5, as well as another guy who shot 70 3's on the season at a 40% clip. Thats on top of another 2 guys who still shot a respectable 33% in over 100 attempts Hard to defend that outside shooting firepower. Only guys we had above 27% were Cooney at 37 and Ennis at 35% and Gbinije shooting 35 but only had 43 attempts. None of our guys shot the three under pressure. Thats Probably a big reason ISU led the country in assists as well. 301 threes made out of 843 attemps from them vs our 167 made in 505 attempts, HUGE difference. By comparison 09-10 only shot 624 threes and 08-09 shot 743.

 

[rrlbees]

I see it the other way around we need more isolation players and consistant ones, thats what wins in march. Opposing teams start cutting down on motion sets and set pieces more as the season rolls along. m2m defense gets much better come mid febuary. I think 2 outside threats one that can shoot under alittle pressure off a bounce is always a good thing. But, if I had my pick I would have two pg's who both can drive finish at the rim with a good midrange pullup/floater (dribble drive is easier for guards then forwards, and it gives you a second ball handler under pressure). One of them tall like Mcw for pressure defense and rebounds. Followed by two forwards who can pull the trigger from outside shooting over 36% one that can shoot under pressure and the other that can hit the offensive boards some. 2 outside shooters that shoot above 40% (icewater in the veins) when wide open. Add a mobile 7 footer in the middle like Fab Melo for the pick and roll, lob pass, offensive boards (give him a short baby hook in the low post if you can also), and some shotblocking presence. You would get alittle of 09-10 and 11-12 chemistrys combined with that chemistry. Unstoppable players you can ride is always a good thing, it brought UK and Uconn to two title games recently. Iowa state had 3 guys who shot over 100 3's on the season two shooing 40% from outside and one who shot 34.5, as well as another guy who shot 70 3's on the season at a 40% clip. Thats on top of another 2 guys who still shot a respectable 33% in over 100 attempts Hard to defend that outside shooting firepower. Only guys we had above 27% were Cooney at 37 and Ennis at 35% and Gbinije shooting 35 but only had 43 attempts. None of our guys shot the three under pressure. Thats Probably a big reason ISU led the country in assists as well. 301 threes made out of 843 attemps from them vs our 167 made in 505 attempts, HUGE difference. By comparison 09-10 only shot 624 threes and 08-09 shot 743.

Our biggest problem this year was TOO much isolation.

 

[orangefan13]

Fair enough, not saying I am right but imo I still tend to lean the opposite direction. I felt we were a isolation player short and didn't have a good enough isolation go to scorer at times.

Fair had alot of rough 3-15 shooting nights down the stretch a big reason that we lost as our 1 true isolation guy. jerami grant was there 1.3 out of 3 games the second half of the season and he got alot of his points off of half court transition as opposed to isolation. And ennis was just starting to develop more. A big problem was not making the jumpshots off isolation, fair missed alot on the pullups as the season went on and cooney and jerami didn't have one off the dribble. Ennis started to make some more nice pullups off the dribble as the season went along, but fell short against dayton along with fair.

Look at uconn they won with a pg who ran the pick and roll in isolation and kept scoring. The 2 years before that russ smith and peyton siva had the same thing. The year before that michael kidd gilchrist had it with anthony davis and doron lamb could shoot well.

imo fair and ennis just werent the go to islation scorers we hoped for some games in feb-march, and both were pretty darn good. I think the fact they could create their own shot well, but not always make it could easily leave the thought that we turned towards to much isolation as a possible misconception as opposed to definite truth. Where as a guy like Carmelo Anthony would go the exact other direction. But thats just my afterthoughts on the the last month and half of the season.

Not saying its right, but I have a strong lean towards good isolation ball, and have seen us do to well with isolation guys like dion, ao, devendorf, mcw, carmelo, warrick, gmac, dnic, scoop,Edelin, Flynn all to often in the last 13 years. If you want to make the elite 8 or round of four you might not need a great isolation go to guy, but if you want to get to the big one it may be a different story. Even John Wallace put up 22.2 ppg as a senior. Looking at last years ff run we had mcw, fair and triche in isolation and Southerland was a more consistant shooter then cooney late in the season.

 

[br801]

Maybe I'm off base, but to me, the OP's question is a veiled suggestion that JB's approach is somehow flawed and dooms SU to failure. I get that many people are disappointed with how last season ended, but if I'm not mistaken, SU reached the Final Four in 2013 and was a few questionable calls away from playing for a title.

To win a national championship decided in a single elimination tournament in an era of relative parity, it takes some high-level talent, solid coaching, good health, a favorable draw in March and a great deal of good fortune. The best one can hope for is to be in the mix of legitimate title contenders, which is where SU has been lately.

 

[longislandcuse]

Luck.

Unless you are a complete and dominating team which is almost exctinct in CBB, the NCAAT is a total crapshoot.

I just want a few Final 4's a decade to give us a chance. The 1 Championship doesn't bother me as much as the "one per decade Final Four's".

 

[HOFCeluck]

Luck.

Unless you are a complete and dominating team which is almost exctinct in CBB, the NCAAT is a total crapshoot.

I just want a few Final 4's a decade to give us a chance. The 1 Championship doesn't bother me as much as the "one per decade Final Four's".

It's not really a total crapshoot. Usually the winner is one of the top four teams in the country.

 

[Briancuse]

It's not really a total crapshoot. Usually the winner is one of the top four teams in the country.

Not this past year.

 

[OttoMets]

A good draw is probably needed.

Beyond that, decent chemistry, at least a couple players with well-rounded offensive skills, and a willingness to replace non-performers for stretches of time.

 

[newmexicuse]

Six straight wins at the right time.

Seriously, our program is coming off of it's no luck peak. That AO injury team was the best in the nation before AO went down. The Melo ineligibility team should have been to the FF w as good a chance as anybody. The MCW team got to the FF& couldn't win it all. Last season we declined. This season we probably will be lucky to match last year's overall record, though hopefully we can Dance better.

It is re-load time for us. I like the guys we have coming in, though we still will need some pieces.

If we can finish off this year's class we should be in the mix again in 2015.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Not this past year.

Thanks. That's why I said usually.

 

[Briancuse]

Not this past year.

The uconn kemba walker team wasn't considered to be one of the top teams in the country, neither were we when we won it. Butler was a 5 seed and a 8 or 9 seed and got to the title game twice.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The big thing is to just make sure you win 6 games in a row in a single elimination tournament.

 

[SUfanNC]

Luck plays a big part. Look Butler got to the final game and kept it close. I don't feel they were the second best team in the nation. You have to get some breaks. Obviously being good is part of it but there are so many factors.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The uconn kemba walker team wasn't considered to be one of the top teams in the country, neither were we when we won it. Butler was a 5 seed and a 8 or 9 seed and got to the title game twice.

 

[moqui]

. . . become a UConn fan?

 

[sdhusky]

It's not really a total crapshoot. Usually the winner is one of the top four teams in the country.

I think the key to winning the NC is having the best player on the floor in each tournament game.

Looking at the UCONN & SU NC teams, you can say that Rip, Carmelo, Emeka, Kemba & Shabazz were the best player every game they played in the tourney.

Add in stifling defense and a couple of NBA-calibre players who know their roles and it works.

 

[sdhusky]

. . . become a UConn fan?

That's the surest way

 

[Flacusian]

Our biggest problem this year was TOO much isolation.

Our biggest problem this year wasn't TOO much isolation... it was TOO much INEFFECTIVE isolation. That is in keeping with Orangefan13's thesis that the personnel make up is important with respect to running isolation offense. It's been argued that JB recruits to fulfill the needs of running the 2/3 at optimum efficiency but it has been at the price of offensive ineffectiveness.

Obviously, in theory, when the zone defense is really clicking the need for offense is inversely proportionate, but in recent seasons we have witnessed long periods of SU being essentially incapable of scoring. I'm of the opinion that although we have been successful winning a lot of games implementing this type of team structure and composition, more needs to be done to increase offensive output even if at the cost of DE-emphasizing the composition of the team toward 2/3 defensive efficiency.

 

[rrlbees]

Our biggest problem this year wasn't TOO much isolation... it was TOO much INEFFECTIVE isolation. That is in keeping with Orangefan13's thesis that the personnel make up is important with respect to running isolation offense. It's been argued that JB recruits to fulfill the needs of running the 2/3 at optimum efficiency but it has been at the price of offensive ineffectiveness. Obviously, in theory, when the zone defense is really clicking the need for offense is inversely proportionate, but in recent seasons we have witnessed long periods of SU being essentially incapable of scoring. I'm of the opinion that although we have been successful winning a lot of games implementing this type of team structure and composition, more needs to be done to increase offensive output even if at the cost of DE-emphasizing the composition of the team toward 2/3 defensive efficiency.

Let me out it another way. Our teams recently have had too many players who are ISO players whether they are good at it or not. JBs motion offense is designed to get good looks for it's shooters. He had always said we need to be able to shoot. Of course it would be great to have a team full of ISO players like Melo, but great ISO players are few and far between. Our team is best suited for an ISO guy surrounded by players who can shoot.

 

[Dave85]

Maybe I'm off base, but to me, the OP's question is a veiled suggestion that JB's approach is somehow flawed and dooms SU to failure.

Absolutely NOT any attempt to suggest JB's approach dooms SU to failure. The defense has been sensational. I was more suggesting and hoping the Orange develop something comparable on offense as what the defense does. Read react and other motion offenses allow teams with lesser quality athletes compete against teams with players like the five star ones on Kentucky and Kansas. We play team defense because it's very effective. I was suggesting it would be cool if we had some kind of team offense that was also effective.

Just out of curiosity, are you just being too sensitive or do you think JB's approach is absolutely perfect and beyond any criticism or improvement?

 

[PoppyHart]

10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power & will
5% pleasure
50% pain

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I don't know. Looking back on the season, it seems to me that it's all about making some shots. In spite of the disappointing end, if we had made 4 more shots, we'd of lost at least two less games, played in NYC and then who knows...the margin for error is really thin and winning a NC is really hard.

That said, we need to continue emphasizing defense, and work harder on offense to get people shots. Then it's up to the players to make them. I always see the glass half full (my orange glasses perhaps) and think we can win it all every year. JB really is right, it's about making shots...

 

[Dave85]

Interesting article on why motion offenses are declining:

"CLEMSON — Motion offense is built on trust. Players run and sweat without the ball to create space and opportunities for teammates. They give up the ball expecting to get it back if they have an open shot.

Motion offense is built on selflessness. Big men are expected to move away from the basket to set screens. Passes are generally preferred to dribbling. Motion offense is built on knowledge. There are no set plays. Players must read defenses, anticipate where teammates will be and understand concepts.

Motion offense is disappearing.

Former Indiana coach Bob Knight is largely responsible for popularizing the philosophy, leading the Hoosiers to three national titles in the 1970s and 1980s. Knight’s motion offense influenced high school coaches across the Midwest, and future coaches like Clemson’s Brad Brownell, an Indiana native. But in the last decade, Brownell noticed the offense was losing basketball market share to more individual expressions of the game: pick-and-roll and dribble-drive schemes."

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20130123/PC20/130129750

 

[HOFCeluck]

The uconn kemba walker team wasn't considered to be one of the top teams in the country, neither were we when we won it. Butler was a 5 seed and a 8 or 9 seed and got to the title game twice.

I have no idea if this was meant in response to me or not. If so, it really doesn't refute anything I said about the tourney.