Which player would you prefer on your SU team?

[OttoMets]

Having a green light to put up 3's because there weren't many other options and you at least need a threat to keep defenses honest, is absolutely a valid reason for having taking more than he should have. JB never got on his case about it like he has many times with others. And you're probably too young to remember the over the top hate and outrage directed at Greene when he left. Greene was and is better than James.


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I'm 30.

And the dismissive attitude and the declarative statements without analysis of any merits should be beneath you.

 

[Knicks411]

I dont think anyone would disagree that Donte shot a lot, and part of that was because we didn't have a lot of other options. In his one year, he took about 28% of our shots when he was on the court. I was surprised to see that James took 25% of our shots when he was on the court this year, though. That's not quite as many, but it's closer than I thought, and I don't think you can use that difference in shot attempts to make up for the vast difference in %

 

[jordoo]

I know Donte had to shoulder a lot of the burden without Rautins and Devendorf.

But am I just imagining A LOT of threes jacked with about 25 secs on the shot clock?

Which he was told to do if open. Granted he had poor shot selection as a freshman on a team who's most experienced payer was a Sophmore Paul Harris . Even with the Greene light there were usually 2-3 shots a game I took issue with and I was a fan of his. Still its situational but Donte after one season where he had to play lots and shoot lots went 1st round while James (again I am a fan of his as well) after 4 years went undrafted or maybe way late 2nd round not sure honestly. Anyways its very very clear that Donte was a much better offensive player, rebounder, passer and shot blocker from what I saw. Yes James was a better wing defender in the zone but no better as a freshman than Donte was.

 

[jordoo]

Neither demonstrated a handle at any point. No advantage for either player.

Not sure how you could say this. Donte could catch and bounce on the break at a full run, he was also a much better passer than James. Donte was't Melo or Owens with the bounce but he had a nice one or two dribble attack when he wanted to do that.

As far as your other longer post about James vs Donte any shooter usually shoots better as there freshman season goes along so of course Donte shot better after the first 9 games but imagine if he had more space after he settled in and didn't feel the need to shoot everytime he was open? Also his shot number going way up after Devo just proves what I am saying about how heavily we had to rely on him as a freshman.

We will have to agree to disagree which is fine. I like a respectful argement

 

[Gabjon]

Donte was/is the better basketball talent there is no question about that, but James maybe the better basketball player. Just look at this years summer league which they both played in James is role is easily defined in the team concept he was able to play on two different teams and contribute to both of them. Donte struggled but more importantly he is struggling to define his role on team 5 years into his career.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

If Donte Greene had stayed, which he obviously should have, there'd be no question between him and Southerland.

 

[jordoo]

I dont think anyone would disagree that Donte shot a lot, and part of that was because we didn't have a lot of other options. In his one year, he took about 28% of our shots when he was on the court. I was surprised to see that James took 25% of our shots when he was on the court this year, though. That's not quite as many, but it's closer than I thought, and I don't think you can use that difference in shot attempts to make up for the vast difference in %

Yes but there was no Triche or CJ for the defense to pay attention to. It was basically stop Jonny with the ball and don't let Greene shoot after that don't worry too much about anyone untill after they caught the ball and still if they are 15' or further let them shoot.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm 30.

And the dismissive attitude and the declarative statements without analysis of any merits should be beneath you.

Ok, you not young. Maybe you weren't part of this community then? Because it is an absolute fact that there was much disdain for Donte when he left. And that disdain has shown itself in other threads over the years. So it's not a bad assumption that some folks still harbor those thoughts and will never view him in any good light.

As to an analysis, it doesn't take much. As a frosh, Greene led the team in minutes played, points scored, set an SU record for 3's made by a freshman, beating out GMac, and he made the BE all rookie team. Yea, he struggled during BE games with his shot but with those facts listed, one of 2 things is true. He didn't have much around him and JB depended on him to be the man, or he was a pretty darn good player.

Greene is, was, and always will be a better player. Not a knock on Southerland, but just a fact.


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[SBU72]

SBU corrected me on this, so apologies to all if I've misunderstood the exercise.

Donte could have been very good. Combine Donte's shooting stroke and build with Senior Rick Jackson's work ethic, Scoop's drive, or someone else's determination to work on his weaknesses and he'd have been an all-time great.

But I didn't see those things that year and no one seems to have seen them since. In six years as a collegian/pro, Donte hasn't developed a handle, shot selection, defensive instinct, or desire to crash the glass. So it's difficult to believe that he'd have done so in three or four college seasons and thus it's hard to believe he'd have honed his great stroke into great shooting percentage via discipline or learned to be a great wing defender or turned 6'11" into 10 rebounds a night.

So I agree.

To me Donte is a prime example against the arguement that kids who go pro early will get more coaching and develope faster/better than if they stay in college. I alwayst thought that that arguement was out and out wrong. Pros don't spend time teaching, even in the Dleague.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Greene was on a team of six players that included Kristof Ongenaet and a young Scoop Jardine. Southerland was on some of the best su teams of the last 20 years.

That alone makes this comparison extremely difficult.

 

[rrlbees]

Donte was/is the better basketball talent there is no question about that, but James maybe the better basketball player. Just look at this years summer league which they both played in James is role is easily defined in the team concept he was able to play on two different teams and contribute to both of them. Donte struggled but more importantly he is struggling to define his role on team 5 years into his career.

5 years is a pretty good shelve life for non stars.


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[Gabjon]

5 years is a pretty good shelve life for non stars.


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But he didn't play last year all he did was get his rookie option picked up. Hak played for 8years who do you think was the better talent?

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[jordoo]

Ok, you not young. Maybe you weren't part of this community then? Because it is an absolute fact that there was much disdain for Donte when he left. And that disdain has shown itself in other threads over the years. So it's not a bad assumption that some folks still harbor those thoughts and will never view him in any good light.

As to an analysis, it doesn't take much. As a frosh, Greene led the team in minutes played, points scored, set an SU record for 3's made by a freshman, beating out GMac, and he made the BE all rookie team. Yea, he struggled during BE games with his shot but with those facts listed, one of 2 things is true. He didn't have much around him and JB depended on him to be the man, or he was a pretty darn good player.

Greene is, was, and always will be a better player. Not a knock on Southerland, but just a fact.


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This first paragraph is sad but very very true and I always think to myself that the group that was expressing that must know deep down how good Donte was as a freshman otherwise there would be no reason for the hate and resentment that still seems to surface from time to timr when his name comes up.

 

[jordoo]

To me Donte is a prime example against the arguement that kids who go pro early will get more coaching and develope faster/better than if they stay in college. I alwayst thought that that arguement was out and out wrong. Pros don't spend time teaching, even in the Dleague.

I find this to be a very interesting post because I've always been on the other side of that arguement. I've felt that you can spend all your time developing your skills however you are correct that the NBA being a business will only spend resources on you for so long. I guess I look at it from the self motivated perspective. If you have a 4 year garanteed contract and you aren't motivated enough to make it in those 4 years thean you never were going to make it even with 3 more years of college but you do have me thinking because guys mature at much different rates and times in there lives. Perhaps many would simply be much more professional after 3-4 years of college rather than 1-2 and that in itself could drastically improve their chances.

 

[jordoo]

Greene was on a team of six players that included Kristof Ongenaet and a young Scoop Jardine. Southerland was on some of the best su teams of the last 20 years.

That alone makes this comparison extremely difficult.

Once Josh left and Devo went down look at the returning experience that team had.

Paul who didn't start until very late his freshman season.
AO who played very sparingly as a frosh and then redshirted a season.
(thats it for returning experience)
Then we had:
Kong: Junior College Transfer
Jonny: Frosh
Donte: Frosh
Ricky: Frosh
Scoop: Frosh
& The Willims Experiment

That has to be the least experienced team JB has ever lead through a BE campagne by a long shot.

 

[dasher]

Greene was a much better player than Southerland. He left as a frosh and went in the first round. That should end the conversation right there. MCW and Flynn is tougher but I would go with MCW. He just passed the ball better and more often.

 

[rrlbees]

But he didn't play last year all he did was get his rookie option picked up. Hak played for 8years who do you think was the better talent?

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Hak.


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[Gabjon]

Hak.


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Lol!

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[rrlbees]

Lol!

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Why the lol? You asked who was the better talent. Not who had more basketball skills. Hak didn't have a lot of pure skills. But he had some unique skills that made him a very good college player and attractive to the NBA. There were a couple things he could do that few could. But as a shooter, ball handler or passer? Not a lot there. So I still say Hak to your question.


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[HOFCeluck]

Lol!

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Season GP MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
2004-05 34 37.5 21.4 54.8 29.0 68.1 1.5 8.6 0.8 1.0

first team AA and BE POY. How likely is it that Donte comes close to that level by his senior year.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Not even close between Donte and James. Donte is a much better all-around player. James was not a good defender, and was a horrible rebounder for his size and athletic ability.

Donte would have stayed if not for family pressure. He really enjoyed SU and the college atmosphere (he's a lot like Rak in that respect) He'd be a much better player today if he didn't go early and ride the bench.

MCW vs Flynn is a good one. I'd take healthy Jonny by a nose (but MCW is a much better fit for the NBA) because of what he could do to college point guards.

 

[realorange]

Greene was on a team of six players that included Kristof Ongenaet and a young Scoop Jardine. Southerland was on some of the best su teams of the last 20 years.

That alone makes this comparison extremely difficult.

Actually, it makes it easier. Southerland had far more open opportunites to shoot because of the quality of his teammates. Donte was basically The Man on his team. Too bad he couldn't stay to refine his game, but the money is usually the deciding factor. James will be very lucky to see that money even after staying for four years.
A lot of the hate for Donte stems from him leaving early and because of the dynasty BS.

 

[SBU72]

I find this to be a very interesting post because I've always been on the other side of that arguement. I've felt that you can spend all your time developing your skills however you are correct that the NBA being a business will only spend resources on you for so long. I guess I look at it from the self motivated perspective. If you have a 4 year garanteed contract and you aren't motivated enough to make it in those 4 years thean you never were going to make it even with 3 more years of college but you do have me thinking because guys mature at much different rates and times in there lives. Perhaps many would simply be much more professional after 3-4 years of college rather than 1-2 and that in itself could drastically improve their chances.

Just how much one-on-one coaching do guys get in the pros (D-league) I don't know so I am asking. As for motivation. I've asked before, how many guys have gone from the D-league to the "majors". Again, since I don't follow pro ball, I don't know the answer. For example out of how ever many teams/players in the D-league, how many adavance?

 

[Knicks411]

Can't find anything more up to date than this

At the conclusion of the 2010–11 NBA season, 23% of NBA players had spent time in the NBA D-League.

Now, you might consider that a little misleading, since that includes guys who have been drafted and then sent there as kind of like a farm system thing, as opposed to working their way up through the D-league. The guy who was probably the most famous NBA player on the planet for a few months at the beginning of last year spent some time in the D-league, for whatever that is worth.

Just how much one-on-one coaching do guys get in the pros (D-league) I don't know so I am asking.

I'm sure none of us know the answer for sure, since we don't work in the league, but I would assume a lot. Most NBA teams have more assistant coaches than college teams, the assistant coaches make more money, and are likely better (I feel like that comment is going to get some attention), and the teams have, to varying degrees, a lot of money invested in young players so they have every reason to develop their skills, and there are no practice time restrictions like there are in college.

 

[jordoo]

Just how much one-on-one coaching do guys get in the pros (D-league) I don't know so I am asking. As for motivation. I've asked before, how many guys have gone from the D-league to the "majors". Again, since I don't follow pro ball, I don't know the answer. For example out of how ever many teams/players in the D-league, how many adavance?

Not too sure myself what the answers to your questions are. It does seem that guys who rip it up in D league still have to be vastly superior in summer league to stick over the new draft pick. Very very few spots in the NBA in reality.