Who is your all-time basketball "Mount Rushmore?"

[Eric15]

There is no way you can put Magic ahead of Oscar.

How come? I see very reasonable arguments being made for why each could be ahead of the other. I personally put Magic ahead of him (and 3rd overall all-time behind Jordan and Kareem).

 

[Crusty]

How come? I see very reasonable arguments being made for why each could be ahead of the other. I personally put Magic ahead of him (and 3rd overall all-time behind Jordan and Kareem).

Even Magic himself said he couldn't do what Oscar did.

 

[victor]

God, having to pick 4 is so brutal.
MJ, Russell, Kareem, Magic. Lebron will be up there when he retires.

Since someone brought up baseball
Ruth, Mays, Bonds, and Wagner. If I want to avoid the flamewar of having Bonds in there, swap Ted Williams for him. Or, wait 15 years and put Mike Trout on there.

Bonds does not belong PED's. How about Junior and you got to include Ted Williams. Lost 6 years due to WWII and Korean war.

 

[victor]

Bonds does not belong PED's. How about Junior and you got to include Ted Williams. Lost 6 years due to WWII and Korean war.

Man, how could leave off Hammering Hank.

 

[Crusty]

Read Bill Simmons book of Basketball and you realize Oscar Robertson's stats are overrated. Teams shot terribly and teams played a lot faster which made rebounds, points, assists available. Oscar couldn't win a title in Cincinnati and rode Kareem's coattails for his title in Milwaukee. Kareem saying Oscar was better than Magic is nuts, and is just Kareem protecting his legacy. He played with Oscar past his prime and with Magic during his prime. Kareem is bitter that Magic's Game 6 performance in 1980 overlooked all the work he had done and the sacrifice he made in staying in LA to get treatment for a Game 7 that never happened. Their is absolutely no doubt in my mind I would take Magic in his prime over Oscar. Magic is by far the greatest PG in NBA history and its not even close. Oscar is in the discussion for the 2nd greatest SG over all time behind Michael Jordan with Jerry West, Kobe Bryant.

How many seasons did Magic average a triple double? Magic's assists came during an era when you got an assist for just about anything. Russel and Wilt also said Oscar was the best. I will go with them over Bill Simmons who was born in 1969 and never saw Oscar in his prime.

 

[Crusty]

Man, how could leave off Hammering Hank.

That is a very god point. See, 4 is not enough.

 

[Knicks411]

Which is why I said to avoid the Bonds debate I'd include Williams in his stead.

I don't see Junior really all that close to the top 4 players of all time unless you want to seriously timeline things; in which case yu can't have Williams, Ruth, etc on the list.

 

[Knicks411]

How many seasons did Magic average a triple double? Magic's assists came during an era when you got an assist for just about anything. Russel and Wilt also said Oscar was the best. I will go with them over Bill Simmons who was born in 1969 and never saw Oscar in his prime.

Magic probably would have averaged a triple double he if he played in the 60's. You can't underestimate how different the game was in the early 60's. In 1982, Magic averaged 9.6 assists per game and 9.5 boards per game. In 1982 the average game had 100 possessions. 20 years earlier, the average game had about 126. You don't think with an extra 25 possessions Magic could have found another half a rebound and assist?

 

[Crusty]

Magic probably would have averaged a triple double he if he played in the 60's. You can't underestimate how different the game was in the early 60's. In 1982, Magic averaged 9.6 assists per game and 9.5 boards per game. In 1982 the average game had 100 possessions. 20 years earlier, the average game had about 126. You don't think with an extra 25 possessions Magic could have found another half a rebound and assist?

Who did Magic play with and who did Oscar play with? I don't know about the possession averages because they are probably not evenly distributed. What were they for each team? That would matter. The Lakers probably had more possessions than the average and the Royals probably had fewer.

 

[Knicks411]

Who did Magic play with and who did Oscar play with? I don't know about the possession averages because they are probably not evenly distributed. What were they for each team? That would matter. The Lakers probably had more possessions than the average and the Royals probably had fewer.

Lakers had 103 possessions per game (so yeah, a little above), Cincy had 125. So a little below. So change it from 26 possessions to 22. Magic is still gettign a triple double

Oscar was awesome, but you need to adjust for the inflated offensive numbers is my point

 

[realorange]

This thread reminds me of an interview I saw this past week with Richard Petty. He was asked if Jimmy Johnson won another driver of the year crown, would he then be better than Richard. Richard answered, no. Then went on to say that he was the best in his era, Dale Earnhardt was the best in his and Jimmy the best in his. His point being with all the changes in NASCAR you couldn't compare across that many years.

Is it really a lot different argument in basketball? Or should it be?

It would even be very argumentative that the four on Mount Rushmore were the best picks.

 

[Shawn91111]

NBA
Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic.

MLB
Ruth, Mays, Bonds, and Cobb.

 

[Crusty]

Lakers had 103 possessions per game (so yeah, a little above), Cincy had 125. So a little below. So change it from 26 possessions to 22. Magic is still gettign a triple double

Oscar was awesome, but you need to adjust for the inflated offensive numbers is my point

I understand your point, I just think there are more important things that go into the equation. Magic played on great teams as did MJ (whose team won without him) and Oscar not so much. Back in that day, Oscar got doubled much more often as well.

Oscar played his entire career without the 3 point shot. The NBA adopted the 3 point shot in Magic's rookie year of 1979-80. Magic was a poor 3 point shooter - in fairness that wasn't his job but he wasn't good at it. I can't make any claim about three pointers for Oscar becasue he played without it but I am sure The Big O would have made just a few of those.

Both were good shots and both good at the charity line. While I think the assist number in Magic's era are greatly inflated there is no question he was terrific.

Oscar was a much better rebounder than Magic even though he was three inches shorter.

Had Oscar played his career with Kareem rather than Wayne Embry he would have won many titles. There is no question that had Oscar played 10 his 14 years with the Lakers instead of the Royals his numbers would have been considerably better and he might have won several championships.

Who you play with is a big factor in your career.

 

[LennX6]

I love Magic and his accomplishments speak for themselves. I don't dispute that he belongs in this discussion, or that he doesn't belong on the Mt. Rushmore.

Just curious why more people don't list Oscar instead of Earvin. Is it only winning one championship, or... ?

It is the winning one championship. Plus I read and article once how Oscar was supposedly a selfish player. I cannot remember where and when I read it, but I always wondered why Oscar never had the "above the fold" status say Wilt or MJ had. His stats surely say he should have.

 

[MikeSU02]

MJ, Russell, Kareem are my three locks.

I think the fourth spot is up for debate. With a few more titles, I think Lebron will get it. Right now it probably would be Magic.

 

[Crusty]

It is the winning one championship. Plus I read and article once how Oscar was supposedly a selfish player. I cannot remember where and when I read it, but I always wondered why Oscar never had the "above the fold" status say Wilt or MJ had. His stats surely say he should have.

How anyone could call a player that might be the best ever assist player in basketball is beyond me.

Oscar played in Cincinnati not New York, Boston or LA, which explains a lot however, he was also had a chip on his shoulder being an intelligent minority in a very racist town. He was the president of the NBA players union and he brought the suit that prevented the 1970 merger of the NBA and ABA. It took six years to settle the suit resulting in free agency and other player benefits.

Oscar was so poor as a kid he never even owned a ball.

 

[Knicks411]

The teammate thing with Oscar vs Magic is of course a huge issue. Like i said earlier, Magic was the shakiest, for lack of a better word, of my 4 picks.

I think Magic was probably a better teammate, which might be one of those tiebreaker type things.

 

[RF2044]

Read Bill Simmons book of Basketball and you realize Oscar Robertson's stats are overrated. Teams shot terribly and teams played a lot faster which made rebounds, points, assists available. Oscar couldn't win a title in Cincinnati and rode Kareem's coattails for his title in Milwaukee. Kareem saying Oscar was better than Magic is nuts, and is just Kareem protecting his legacy. He played with Oscar past his prime and with Magic during his prime. Kareem is bitter that Magic's Game 6 performance in 1980 overlooked all the work he had done and the sacrifice he made in staying in LA to get treatment for a Game 7 that never happened. Their is absolutely no doubt in my mind I would take Magic in his prime over Oscar. Magic is by far the greatest PG in NBA history and its not even close. Oscar is in the discussion for the 2nd greatest SG over all time behind Michael Jordan with Jerry West, Kobe Bryant.

For me that is probably a lot of it, which obviously isn't totally fair to Oscar, since Magic got to play with Kareem for a lot longer.

Oscar's numbers are inflated a tad due to the era he played in as well. My list was MJ, Russell, Kareem, and Magic. Magic was clearly 4th on the list to me. The other 3 I felt I needed to have on there.

Stats are not the only measure of a player.

How would you evaluate Tim Duncan's stats relative to the more gaudy numbers of other power forwards?

Bill Simmons...

 

[Knicks411]

I haven't sat down and done a complete ranking, but I think Duncan has to be in like maybe the top 8 of all time overall? The 4 already mentioned, then you gotta start talking Wilt and Larry and Oscar and Duncan, I think, in some order. (To make things easier I'll keep Lebron out of the equation).

I think Duncan is unbelievable. Would probably have him ahead of Bird. Maybe #6 or something? (As if my rankings mean anything, I know) On a per minute basis, the guy was basically putting up the same season last year as he was in his prime. Just mind boggling. And he anchored some of the best defenses of all time.

If you want to classify Duncan as a PF, he's the greatest ever IMO. At C, I would have to put him behind Kareem and Russell and then he's right there with anyone else.

 

[Alsacs]

There is no way you can put Magic ahead of Oscar.

LOL, your nuts. Magic played with Kareem, Worthy, Scott. Oscar played with Wayne Embry, Jerry Lucas, Jack Twyman. Oscar played in an era where NBA teams were only allowed 2 African Americans per team until Red Auerbach fought the unofficial rule. Oscar played in an era where their 80 more rebounds per game because teams couldn't shoot and he was by far the most athletic player at the guard position. Oscar missed the playoffs 4 times and only won 2 playoff series in Cincinnati. Magic even after Kareem was washed up in 1988 dragged the Lakers to 58 wins per season till 1991 and 2 more NBA Finals in an NBA era that was the most competitive of all time because their were only 23 teams and teams were stacked with quality players. Magic Johnson IS SO MUCH BETTER than Oscar its laughable you say their is no way you can put Magic ahead of Oscar. Jerry West evolved to being better than Oscar during Oscar's time in Cincinnati and when he was traded to Milwaukee Oscar had to ride Kareem more than Magic ever had to win a title. Don't give these stupid triple double arguments. If you stuck Dwayne Wade into the NBA in 1961 with 8 teams and teams couldn't shoot and the league only had a handful of athletic players capable of defending Wade like it was for Oscar he would average a triple double. Oscar is a good player a top 10 all-timer, but he is NOT a top 4 all-time player with only 1 TITLE, and HE WON IT AS A 2ND BANANA. Oscar had decent teammates the problem he is was such a giant AHOLE to his teammates they self-destructed because of Oscar's attitude. Magic Johnson is the greatest PG of all-time and won 5 titles in the NBA's Golden Era.

 

[Alsacs]

Also, Bill Russell thought Jerry West WAS BETTER THAN Oscar Robertson. What the hell does that tell you. Bill Russell payed his own way to attend Jerry West's Farewell ceremony with the Lakers. He did no such thing for Oscar.

 

[Alsacs]

Stats are not the only measure of a player.

How would you evaluate Tim Duncan's stats relative to the more gaudy numbers of other power forwards?

Bill Simmons...

Bill Simmons has Tim Duncan as the greatest power forward of alltime and he is 7th best player of alltime. A man who sacrificed some numbers for the benefit of his teammates. Also, Duncan knows the difference between game 50 of the regular season in Orlando and game 4 of the Western Conference Finals versus the Lakers. Duncan raises his game when he has too, and his teammates have always been underrated guys who improved more than people though they would Tony Parker, Manu Ganobili, or washed up past their prime guys like Sean Elliott, David Robinson. Simmons book is the most objective evaluation of NBA players ever. He has Magic above Bird and Duncan WAY above Garnett.

 

[Knicks411]

I feel like he put Magic ahead of Bird just so he could say he didn't have any biases and then could rank the the 86 Celtics first all time.

 

[Alsacs]

I feel like he put Magic ahead of Bird just so he could say he didn't have any biases and then could rank the the 86 Celtics first all time.

86 Celtics are one of the 3 greatest teams of all-time. Even you as a Knicks fan have to concede that.

Bird, Johnson, McHale, Parrish, Walton, are all HOFs. Also, Ainge, Wedman, Schting all great role players. That was better than the 1996 Bulls. The only teams IMO in discussion with 86 Celtics are the 87 Lakers and 92 Bulls.

 

[rrlbees]

These are always such tough discussions. As someone who has seen every player mentioned play, I would say the only 2 locks are Jordan and Russell. After that it's just a bunch of opinions and personal likes and perception. I don't consider James yet since he is still playing.