Why do players like Josh Hart stay 4 years and we struggle to get 2 years for a bunch of players

[Townie72]

Hoya grad, class of 1978 here. A couple of points here.

1. While Gonzaga sends a goodly number of graduates to Georgetown annually, GU hasn't successfully recruited a Gonzaga basketball player since JT3 became head coach. Hard to consider Gonzaga a basketball feeder school in that context.

2. As for Josh Hart, there has been incessant hand-wringing for the past two seasons on the HoyaTalk website about GU's failure to recruit him; Hart made no secret of his desire to go to Georgetown while in high school. In actuality, GU recruited Hart, but then backed off on him due to academic concerns (ironic given Sidwell Friends's academic reputation). I have no information as to whether GU recruited C.J. Fair; if we did, we sure weren't successful.

You guys had a nice run. Enjoy it. See you at the Dome next season.

As a DC resident with connections to both Gonzaga and Prep and an awareness of who goes where, I know that 1.) A lot of Gonzaga kids go to Georgetown. (Years ago, a Gonzaga diploma guaranteed you acceptance at GU.) 2.) I also know that the last Gonzaga basketball players at GU were Robert Churchwell and Lamont Morgan.

The point of this is that Hart was not a good enough player in Georgetown's eyes to warrant heavily recruiting him. Your suggestion about "academics" has my head spinning a little. But maybe I am stuck thinking about the JT Jr regime and this is a new day at GU. Villanova might not be GU academically, but it isn't Louisville either. (I think this idea that GU backed off becuse of "academics" might be a little message board talk that is not supported by any real facts. The probability is that GU just underestimated Hart and missed on him.

Jay Wright on the other hand was willing to take a chance on these guys and to develop them.

I can't remember a Baltimore player at Georgetown after Reggie Williams. Either GU doesn't recruit Baltimore or no one in Baltimore is interested in Georgetown. Baltimore is 45 miles from DC, but a different world.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Heard a story during the broadcast last night that if Nova won they would be the first team in around 20 years or so that won the NC without a 1st rounder on the team. Not quite sure about the last time it happened but thought it was an interesting statistic and a credit to JayQ. Also, assume that they weren't considering Hart a first round NBA guy when the statement was made. I don't think he's sticking around for his love of everything Villanova.

 

[Madbiker]

This kid is a Junior.

I watch Hart and I see a stud. This kid was the best player on Villanova and every preseason poll automatically has him returning.

6'5" with ridiculously good numbers averaging 15.6 PPG and was first team-all Big East. He is a prototype NBA 2 guard and yet why isn't he talked about?

Hart is more pro ready than a bunch of these players not just from Syracuse who go pro early and its assumed he stays why?

Yep the jackpot is getting players that are excellent college players but have some "defect" that makes them unappealing to the NBA. Like Kris Jenkins. Kid is a junior. Great offensive player. But at 6'6 undersized for an NBA forward and lacks the off the charts athleticism the NBA craves. Can't figure out what they don't like about Hart.

 

[corgiblaze]

As a DC resident with connections to both Gonzaga and Prep and an awareness of who goes where, I know that 1.) A lot of Gonzaga kids go to Georgetown. (Years ago, a Gonzaga diploma guaranteed you acceptance at GU.) 2.) I also know that the last Gonzaga basketball players at GU were Robert Churchwell and Lamont Morgan.

The point of this is that Hart was not a good enough player in Georgetown's eyes to warrant heavily recruiting him. Your suggestion about "academics" has my head spinning a little. But maybe I am stuck thinking about the JT Jr regime and this is a new day at GU. Villanova might not be GU academically, but it isn't Louisville either. (I think this idea that GU backed off becuse of "academics" might be a little message board talk that is not supported by any real facts. The probability is that GU just underestimated Hart and missed on him.

Jay Wright on the other hand was willing to take a chance on these guys and to develop them.

I can't remember a Baltimore player at Georgetown after Reggie Williams. Either GU doesn't recruit Baltimore or no one in Baltimore is interested in Georgetown. Baltimore is 45 miles from DC, but a different world.

There has been no HoyaTalk discussion of Hart's academics because it has not been publicized beyond a chosen few connected with the athletic department. That being said, I am sure that had GU really wanted Hart, the academics would have been resolved. The fact that the Hoyas recruited Tre Campbell instead of Josh Hart speaks volumes as to the evaluation of talent by JT3's assistant coaches (many of whom have since been replaced).

I'm not going to defend JT2's regime as to academics, or recruiting (or lack of same) during the last few years of his tenure. He got very lazy. Allen Iverson fell into his lap. In reality, Georgetown has not been "Big Man U" for many years, well before JT3's arrival.

GU still recruits in Baltimore; many players have come from the I-95 corridor bedroom communities (Columbia, Hyattsville etc.). The most recent Hoya from Baltimore proper was former 76er/now Net (that's a great NBA resume!) Henry Sims (2013 grad), from Baltimore and Mt. St. Joseph High School.

All the props to Jay Wright. Great coach and real good guy. Hard not to like him.

 

[OttoMets]

..

I can't remember a Baltimore player at Georgetown after Reggie Williams. Either GU doesn't recruit Baltimore or no one in Baltimore is interested in Georgetown. Baltimore is 45 miles from DC, but a different world.

DeJuan Summers, Henry Sims, others

 

[Cusefan0307]

This kid is a Junior.

I watch Hart and I see a stud. This kid was the best player on Villanova and every preseason poll automatically has him returning.

6'5" with ridiculously good numbers averaging 15.6 PPG and was first team-all Big East. He is a prototype NBA 2 guard and yet why isn't he talked about?

Hart is more pro ready than a bunch of these players not just from Syracuse who go pro early and its assumed he stays why?

Not true. Chad Ford has Hart ranked as the 6th ranked shooting guard. He has Him as a late first/early second rounder. Mali is rated as the 14th ranked shooting guard, projected undrafted.

Jonathan Givony has Hart ranked as the 69th best prospect and projected as a 2nd round pick next year. Givony doesn't have Mali ranked anywhere this year or next.

We are over valuing Mal's worth to the NBA as seen by scouts as of now. Could that change if he went to the combine? Possibly, but I don't see it.
These are the current players ranked ahead of Mali. He needs to outplay everyone from Allen down just to get in the first round:

Hield
Furkan Korkaz
Grayson Allen
Malik Beasley
Caris Levert
Josh Hart
Isaiah Whitehead
Malcolm Brogdon
Patrick McCaw
Isaia Cordinier
Wayne Selden
Ron Baker
Sviatosla Mykhauliuk.

 

[alphaorange]

Hart isn't a tweener that is difference. The kid is a 6'5" SG with NBA talent. It is different to see these kids not explore the NBA as age is always brought up.

If Fair could have been a first round pick in 2013 he would have left. Fair smartly read the tea leafs if this is a weak SG class then Hart could be a first round pick. He is only 1 year older than Richardson and has more upside honestly IMO.

What are you even talking about? Hart isn't on any draft board for '16 or '17. What are you, his agent or something? Hyperbole much?

 

[Cusefan0307]

What are you even talking about? Hart isn't on any draft board for '16 or '17. What are you, his agent or something? Hyperbole much?

Not exactly right. Depending on who you look at hes a first or second round pick the next two years.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Because we're Syracuse and we're the next best thing to a blue-blood if we're not one ourselves. We play in the ACC and when we do well the nation notices. I bet you 75% of the country didn't know whether Nova was a good team or not and 99% of the country had no idea Oregon was a 1 seed but I guarantee everyone knew about our issues this year. Its the price we pay for being a hoops elite... our real problem is that our results don't quite match up to the guys above us so we get the downside of being an elite without the results.

 

[Alsacs]

What are you even talking about? Hart isn't on any draft board for '16 or '17. What are you, his agent or something? Hyperbole much?

Hart is above Richardson on Chad Ford's board, draft express board, and many other boards.

He is a projected NBA 2nd round pick. Not sure why you would post this. Hart looks way more polished than Malachi and Hart is only 1 year older.

 

[cuse522]

We have awful luck for starters, and we recruit kids who clearly care more about the Nba, than they do winning national titles.

We basically have a choice to make, since we're not a blue blood. We can go for high level (cut below true elite most of the time) talent that fits into the 2-3 zone, or we can go after guys who have a fatal flaw that keeps them out of the NBA (often height, which hurts in the 2-3 unless they're lanky as hell), or we can go after less talented players that are 4-year players, but will be good program guys.

Boeheim has made the choice to go after the first group - high level talent that fits his system. It's hard to argue with him on it, IMO.

Wright has decided to go after program guys and fatal flaw guys and gets them to buy in fully to playing good team ball. It's impossible to argue with him, obviously.

The thing is, to be as successful as Boeheim has been with the zone, he just has to have that length and athleticism.

 

[Alsacs]

I bitched about this and now its hilarious. Kris Jenkins and Josh Hart are declaring for the NBA draft.

LOL.

I would snag Hart late in the first round if I were an NBA team looking for a SG.

 

[Ward]

I bitched about this and now its hilarious. Kris Jenkins and Josh Hart are declaring for the NBA draft.

LOL.

I would snag Hart late in the first round if I were an NBA team looking for a SG.

Wow, Hart I agree will probably end up in a great situation and be a great role player for a contender that scoops him up late. My guess is he does really well at the combine and in workouts in one-on-one situations locking guys up.

Jenkins, maybe he's always wanted to visit Europe?

 

[We Are Syracuse]

Hart is not a program player. He has improved big time every year. He was the 6th man of the year last year in the Big East.

He was part of the reason Dylan Ennis transferred to get him minutes.

This kid is considered an NBA prospect just not an elite one. He will be like Jimmy Butler, Wes Matthews or Jae Crowder. He will overachieve and then get paid in the NBA.

I am being 100% honest I would rather have Josh Hart than Malachi Richardson and I love Malachi.

Age isn't an issue for Hart and the kid has the tools, size, and defense I would like I were an NBA team.

Lol who wouldnt rather have Hart than Mali? Hart is MAYBE the most solid player I saw in all of CBB this year.

 

[cuse522]

Looks like neither hired an agent, and Wright encouraged them to go through the process.

Hart: “The way the rule is now? If this was last year, I wouldn’t even be thinking about the NBA. But now, how it is? I’m definitely going to go through the whole process and see how that goes.” (via CSN Philly)

 

[jordoo]

Read the first page. If you see NBA bells and whistles when watching Hart you don't know the NBA. He's a very good college player without MBA SF size and without NBA 2G quickness.

Could he have an NBA career? Sure but he has no real position and he's project as a bench rotational player.

That foul he drew was BS BTW, how many times can you pivit?

 

[billsin01]

eh he (Hart) is just one of those "perfect" college players - good enough to take over games and lead his team but not quite having the skillset/upside to attract NBA attention as an underclassman. Malcolm Brogdon. Archidiacano. Nigel Hayes. Fred Van Vleet. Country is littered with them really.

So if this is the case, the question is how do you corner the market on them (or at least make sure you've got one every recruiting cycle). Not trying to be a , literally asking the question -- how do you identify these playesr and make sure you have one per recruiting season (or as often as possible)? Extremely important question for any program not named Duke/Kentucky/Carolina, etc.

 

[pearl31]

So if this is the case, the question is how do you corner the market on them (or at least make sure you've got one every recruiting cycle). Not trying to be a , literally asking the question -- how do you identify these playesr and make sure you have one per recruiting season (or as often as possible)? Extremely important question for any program not named Duke/Kentucky/Carolina, etc.

It's a really good question. And it usually comes down to luck :noidea:

 

[billsin01]

It's a really good question. And it usually comes down to luck :noidea:

I agree but I think it's worth exploring for JB/Hop, etc. I mean, to me, what we're really talking about is kids that know how to play basketball but don't have the truly elite physical talent. What I like about the kids we brought in this year -- including Franky -- is that they are all basketball players. Whatever you think their projections are and whatever you think their NBA prospects are, they were kids who walked onto the college practice floor and belonged from day 1. I don't think we can say that about a lot of our recent recruits, including some high profile guys.

So am I blaming the staff for the fact that Fab Melo wasn't ready to dominate as a freshman? No, not at all. But I do think if you're recruiting him you need to take into account that you could, theoretically, get a kid who goes for like 6 ppg and 5 rpg as a frosh and then leaves (I realize neither of these things happened with Melo, but pointing out that they could have happened). In that case, obviously, it's probably better to find Tyler Roberson and try to work through some flaws or Rick Jackson and be OK with some limitations.

Just a thought.

 

[longtimefan]

I agree but I think it's worth exploring for JB/Hop, etc. I mean, to me, what we're really talking about is kids that know how to play basketball but don't have the truly elite physical talent. What I like about the kids we brought in this year -- including Franky -- is that they are all basketball players. Whatever you think their projections are and whatever you think their NBA prospects are, they were kids who walked onto the college practice floor and belonged from day 1. I don't think we can say that about a lot of our recent recruits, including some high profile guys.

So am I blaming the staff for the fact that Fab Melo wasn't ready to dominate as a freshman? No, not at all. But I do think if you're recruiting him you need to take into account that you could, theoretically, get a kid who goes for like 6 ppg and 5 rpg as a frosh and then leaves (I realize neither of these things happened with Melo, but pointing out that they could have happened). In that case, obviously, it's probably better to find Tyler Roberson and try to work through some flaws or Rick Jackson and be OK with some limitations.

Just a thought.

6 & 5. A bit more than Labissiere (?) went for.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think you are vastly overrating Hart's pro potential.

Obviously, that's just my opinion [and you are expressing a different view of his NBA potetial--hard to say which of us is wrong].

It's hard to say. I see a Wesley Matthews type in Hart. I don't think scouts were drooling about he and Jimmy Butler but these guys became legit NBA players.

This Nova team is better than most on this board think, imo. If TJ McConnell can stick on an NBA team then Arcidiacono will as well.

 

[billsin01]

The one thing I'll say is that we have PLENTY of program guys like Hart.

CJ Fair. Rak Christmas. Gbinije. Brandon Triche. Etc.

I agree that where we haven't gotten maximum benefit is from the one-and-done types we've had. Quality impact from Ennis, but he left a year earlier than expected and left us in a lurch last year. Virtually no impact from McCullough. An NIT year in Greene's lone season.

So I agree entirely with the one-and-done portion of this post and RF, I feel like I generally see eye-to-eye with you on most topics. But in this instance, I feel like you're kind of stretching it by adding Rak and Triche to this list. I mean, Triche and Hart had similar freshmen years and both played on teams that won a ton of games each season. But that's where the similarities end. By Hart's sophomore year, on a team that wins 33 games, he's second in scoring (in just 25 mpg) and shots 46% from 3 and 51% from the floor and grabs 4.5 rebs. Those are pretty darn efficient numbers that Triche can't touch (particularly as a soph or junior). Then Hart came back this year and went for 15.5 and 7 (3-pt % down to 36% -- still north of BT any year after his frosh year) as the best player on a team that won the national title. I mean, that's pretty crazy to think he'd be back, potentially, as a senior.

Rak was incredible as a senior and I am happy to admit that I said there was no way in hell that was happening. I ate a ton of crow ... happily. But he was really a marginal contributor for three years. The dude put up 17.5 and 9 rpg a game as a senior and still graduated with career numbers of 7.4 and 5. I mean, if we're being honest, we got three years of disappointment and one glorious senior season.

So I'm not posting this to pick nits, I'm merely saying that I think there's an interesting point in this thread. Namely: how do we find kids like Josh Hart. Or, more logically, how do we try and land more classes full of Lydons, Richardsons, and Howards -- kids who can play as frosh and have the potential to be here for at least two years? That seems to be a combo that has eluded us to a large extent outside of MCW (remember Waiters did some OK things as a frosh but had a really rocky season; Fab was terrible as a frosh, DC has had a tough time figuring things out, it took Xmas three years ... Guys like Fair and even moreso like Lydon are huge currency for programs these days. We need more of them.

 

[billsin01]

It's hard to say. I see a Wesley Matthews type in Hart. I don't think scouts were drooling about he and Jimmy Butler but these guys became legit NBA players.

This Nova team is better than most on this board think, imo. If TJ McConnell can stick on an NBA team then Arcidiacono will as well.

I still struggle to comprehend that the Bulls' Jimmy Butler is the Jimmy Butler from Marquette. Always liked him, but just hard to comprehend that he's now one of the better players in the entire league. That is pretty amazing.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I still struggle to comprehend that the Bulls' Jimmy Butler is the Jimmy Butler from Marquette. Always liked him, but just hard to comprehend that he's now one of the better players in the entire league. That is pretty amazing.

Right? I think few people did. Same with Kawhi Leonard or Paul George I bet. I always liked Butler as well.

 

[billsin01]

Right? I think few people did. Same with Kawhi Leonard or Paul George I bet. I always liked Butler as well.

I liked Buzz's teams at Marquette which I always thought explained why I didn't like the nba -- a bunch of tweeners who work hard and get the most out of their abilities. But then Crowder, Matthews, and Butler blow up and now I'm not sure what to think.