why stadium deals are so secretive

[longtimefan]

i don't see people saying what a great deal it is for the county, just that it isn't so distinct from how business or politics are typically done. avoiding fervent public debate (from emotional, but mostly not-too-interested parties) is advantageous to getting a deal done. they achieved that. i'll judge it all down the line but much prefer the efficient way they got it done to the nonsense that happens when something like this gets played in the media and every other interest group gets their hand into the pot. whatever would have happened under that scenario, i highly doubt it would have netted out as cheaper on the public.

Why would the local politicos in Cobb County prevent opponents of the project from speaking, and, in fact, have some of them tossed out of the meeting? That is pretty much counter to how our political system is supposed to work.

"That's how business gets done" doesn't work for me. Enriching the few (or privatizing the gains and socializing the losses) is not the function of the government in this country. The USA was not conceived as an oligarchy/plutocracy.

 

[Scooch]

Cynical of the masses. I'd rather have 20 enterprising, self interested people hash it out than 5mm self interested idiots (I'm included in that 5mm)

Ugh, that's horrible man. Like, anti-American horrible.

Basically you're advocating for authoritarian rule.

 

[TheCusian]

OK, I fundamentally disagree. Let's say this thing becomes an obvious albatross, you can vote out a few of the people who had a hand in it. Wonderful. That doesn't mean the public gets their hundreds of millions of dollars back, or isn't stuck with a lousy tax deal for years into the future. But you got it done, goshdarnit, so huzzah! Here's the thing... the people who founded our democracy wanted things to take time! They wanted the gears of public discourse to grind slowly, so that rash decisions were less easy to be made. What is so admirable about ramming through a secret deal? Because it took a couple years less than had the process been more transparent? We're talking about a huge use of public dollars AND an ongoing deal that has decades of implications. Maybe taking a couple extra years to do it is a good thing? Some of the same people who in this case, and in the Syracuse case, are the ones lauding speed and secrecy, are the same people who are always bitching about waste and accountability in government. You can't have it both ways, but people want to because they're hypocrites. People should at least OWN that.

The great misconception in all of this is that politicians are somehow beholden to the common voters interests, and not the mega donor, private funder.

 

[Timonen]

Ugh, that's horrible man. Like, anti-American horrible.

Basically you're advocating for authoritarian rule.

Advocating for efficiency. The quicker we get things done, the quicker we can react and punish/reward those that did it. The people invested don't operate outside the political system and market system so they still need customers, votes, sponsors, employees, etc. I say let me do their agreed upon deal and then we'll see.

 

[CusefanATL]

Why would the local politicos in Cobb County prevent opponents of the project from speaking, and, in fact, have some of them tossed out of the meeting? That is pretty much counter to how our political system is supposed to work.

"That's how business gets done" doesn't work for me. Enriching the few (or privatizing the gains and socializing the losses) is not the function of the government in this country. The USA was not conceived as an oligarchy/plutocracy.

you literally have no clue what happened. None.

12 people were allowed to speak. the speakers were on a first come first serve basis.

the 1st 12 people to show up were all supporters. and before you get all up in arms about a conspiracy, they got there in the afternoon for a 7pm meeting. not exactly the same as students camping out for good seats to a Ga tech bball game. 3 things to take from this:

1. no one was muzzled. anyone from any background or any opinion was allowed their chance at being a speaker.
2. cobb county residents as a whole are in favor of this
3. the protesters are either dumb or stupid.

No one was allowed to scream out of order in the meeting - those were the people being kicked out. they received numerous warnings before they were politely escorted out.

know the facts before stating them as facts. be careful about confusing deadspin as journalism.

 

[OttoMets]

that the braves rely on tourists to fill seats nicely articulates the problem! locals aren't compelled to go there. that's not a good business plan. go to where your local season ticket base lives and/or drives through. if the product is compelling, tourists will go (same as philly, washington, NYC, etc...you wouldn't "wander" to any of them as a tourist).

I'm not sure moving up there will solve the problem; we'll have a better read on that in ten years.

In 2014, though, it's odd to see cultural anchors moving out to the exurbs.

 

[OttoMets]

i understand some of your points.

That being said the final 4 is once every 8-10 years.

I also think you are overestimating the distance to cobb county. its probably 7 miles from midtown atlanta to the new stadium. certainly not a walk. but easy enough. they will be gaining a lot more than they are losing.

You're closer to the situation than I, so I'll defer as to the last claim. I guess it remains to be seen if the populace up that way will support the team better with a new stadium out of the city. My fear is that most (fans, the city, the region as a whole, the taxpayers in Cobb County) will lose more than they'll gain while the Braves' bottom line continues to show gains.

And it's such a poor example of urban planning; really disappointing on that front.

 

[CusefanATL]

And it's such a poor example of urban planning; really disappointing on that front.

I hear you on that front... but by the time Atlanta is a well thought out urban planned city - the Braves will have used up their entire lease (and possibly next lease) and can seamlessly move back into the city.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I hear you on that front... but by the time Atlanta is a well thought out urban planned city - the Braves will have used up their entire lease (and possibly next lease) and can seamlessly move back into the city.

Awesome. Calling it now - the Cobb lease runs out, and the Braves move back in to Atlanta downtown.

In to a new stadium of course.

 

[Scooch]

Awesome. Calling it now - the Cobb lease runs out, and the Braves move back in to Atlanta downtown. In to a new stadium of course.

Please... They'll break that lease long before it runs out.

Progress!

 

[CusefanATL]

Awesome. Calling it now - the Cobb lease runs out, and the Braves move back in to Atlanta downtown.

In to a new stadium of course.

as i've stated, i'm not pro-smyrna move. i am pro-get the hell out of the worst area in all of professional sports turner field.

I have long said that what is now Atlantic Station would have been the perfect place for all atlanta sporting venues to go to. A natural mix of demographics and easy enough to get to from all parts of the city. Could more than likely easily add in a Marta stop.

 

[SWC75]

I'm old fashioned. I just think that stadiums, especially those built with public money, should be designed to last 50 years. Obviously, that's a very naive point of view.

 

[CusefanATL]

I'm old fashioned. I just think that stadiums, especially those built with public money, should be designed to last 50 years. Obviously, that's a very naive point of view.

Turner Field wasn't built with much, if any public money. So 20 years is fine by that logic. It is holding the Braves back. Combined with a bad TV deal from the Time Warner days and they had to move to stay relevant.

 

[cusefan88]

Stadiums don't offer any positive economic impact. It bleeds the taxpayers dry (and often without their approval) and it's extremely shady. Hey billionaire owner, want a new stadium? Build it yourself.

Good reading http://www.amazon.com/Public-Dollars-Private-Stadiums-Building/dp/0813533430

"Delaney and Eckstein show that in the face of studies demonstrating that new sports facilities don’t live up to their promise of big money, proponents are using a new tactic to win public subsidies; intangible “social” rewards, such as prestige and community cohesion. The authors find these to be empty promises as well, demonstrating that new stadiums may exacerbate, rather than erase, social problems in cities."

 

[AZOrange]

Stadiums don't offer any positive economic impact. It bleeds the taxpayers dry (and often without their approval) and it's extremely shady. Hey billionaire owner, want a new stadium? Build it yourself.

Good reading http://www.amazon.com/Public-Dollars-Private-Stadiums-Building/dp/0813533430

"Delaney and Eckstein show that in the face of studies demonstrating that new sports facilities don’t live up to their promise of big money, proponents are using a new tactic to win public subsidies; intangible “social” rewards, such as prestige and community cohesion. The authors find these to be empty promises as well, demonstrating that new stadiums may exacerbate, rather than erase, social problems in cities."

Good stuff. Gregg easter brook (I think it was) had a good expose/article on this too. Look I'm not opposed to having the muni play an assist role if needed (land grant, tax free finance). But this giveaway without voter approval and then the second giveaway of the Econ benefit is silly. Paul Allen could have financed seattles stadium with loose change in his car.

 

[SWC75]

Turner Field wasn't built with much, if any public money. So 20 years is fine by that logic. It is holding the Braves back. Combined with a bad TV deal from the Time Warner days and they had to move to stay relevant.

Stay relevant?

 

[CusefanATL]

Stay relevant?

yes, correct. stay relevant.

 

[SWC75]

yes, correct. stay relevant.

I think all professional sports teams are relevant if they make the right personnel decisions.

 

[cuseinchina]

I think all professional sports teams are relevant if they make the right personnel decisions.

I kinda think their TV deal made them significantly more relevant nationally than they deserved to be. Are they still on TBS every day or whatever it was? Haven't had cable in a while so forgive my ignorance - but I remember when you couldn't turn on a TV in Boston without finding a braves game - pretty weird.

 

[CusefanATL]

I think all professional sports teams are relevant if they make the right personnel decisions.

In baseball, you usually need money to be relevant on a consistent basis.

 

[Timonen]

I think all professional sports teams are relevant if they make the right personnel decisions.

Takes extra work in Atlanta. UGA is #1-#5 on the sports relevance list. Hawks have never been relevant. Hockey has failed twice. Took some masterful marketing by Arthur Blank (made possible by Mike Vick) for Falcons to find their niche after decades of irrelevance. Braves have been run better and positioned themselves to be more ingrained in the culture (TBS, Hank Aaron, a million division titles) but attendance/interest would fall off a cliff with a two year downturn in performance.

 

[longtimefan]

Takes extra work in Atlanta. UGA is #1-#5 on the sports relevance list. Hawks have never been relevant. Hockey has failed twice. Took some masterful marketing by Arthur Blank (made possible by Mike Vick) for Falcons to find their niche after decades of irrelevance. Braves have been run better and positioned themselves to be more ingrained in the culture (TBS, Hank Aaron, a million division titles) but attendance/interest would fall off a cliff with a two year downturn in performance.

But how do any of the factors you cited relate to the Braves' income?

 

[SWC75]

In baseball, you usually need money to be relevant on a consistent basis.

Bernie Madoff has my Mets' money and they are losing but they are still relevant to their fans.

 

[Scooch]

In baseball, you usually need money to be relevant on a consistent basis.

And yet somehow the Braves managed to win about 47 NL East titles in a row despite playing in that ancient dump.

Truly amazing.

 

[CusefanATL]

And yet somehow the Braves managed to win about 47 NL East titles in a row despite playing in that ancient dump.

Truly amazing.

now you are putting words in my mouth to try to make me look stupid. i never called the stadium ancient, nor a dump.

i said the area is a horrific wasteland of poverty that is embarrassing to bring out of town guests to.