With no disrespect to Jim, why are coaches exempt and given a sort of lifetime contract?

[CU44SE]

So hear me out.

In any other job or profession in the world, you get old enough and either retire, are forced to retire, or are kindly told to retire rather than being fired. At some point, you can no longer perform the daily tasks that your job requires of you. But for some reason, it seems like head coaches always get a pass and legends are able to go out on their own terms even though they have a lack of success at the end of their tenure (bobby bowden, frank beamer, etc)

What Jim has done for the University and the City as a whole is incredible and should be applauded and celebrated. He has won a championship, brought the city and university a ton of success and notoriety that it would not get otherwise, and is a Hall of Fame coach. What he has achieved in his career is unbeleivable and almost unfathomable. I have enjoyed what he has done in my short 32 years, and absolutely adore him. I will be thankful and always remember what he did for the city, the team, and the fun and enjoyment he gave me as a fan. He will always be remembered as a legend in the Syracuse community.

BUT...

If this was any other profession, he would be fired or forced into retirement due to his lack of success. There still needs to be a level of accountability, Jim should not be above this review. He is essentialy being held on to due to his past success and accomplishments, and I am not sure why this is the norm? Past success does not guarentee future success. It would be one thing if this was a year or two situation, but that is not the case. As I believe Alasc's posted the other day Jimmy is closing in on 7 straight 13 loss seasons, and as I mentioned later in the article that he had only 4 such seasons from 1969-2014 when this streak started.

I ask why has nothing changed? Do I think it is time for the university to step in and move on? Yes, I do. But besides my believe, why has nothing changed in this seven year run? No change in recruiting philosophy, no change in assistants, no pressure from the athletic department or university? I guess I just do not understand why past history makes someone invincible. If this was football for example, coordinators would be changed, head coaches would be changed, facilities would be altered, etc.

Maybe the bottom line is I am not a nostalgic person. But I am also not a fly by the seat of your pants type of guy either. I feel like Jim has had plenty of time to right the ship, but it just has not happened. I didn't start to believe he should be forced out until the end of last year up until this past week. But as many others here have stated I have started to become ambivalent on game days. I used to get overjoyed, and that feeling is just missing now because I continue to see the same stuff occur over and over again, which leads to many loses.

I guess the whole point of this post was to wonder aloud and see what you guys think, why are legends given too much leeway after several continuos poor years of success? What have people seen over the last 7 years that tell you we are trending in the right direction? (and yes, Im very aware we went to the final four in 2016, but we still barely made the tournament. I believe Regular season wins and losses is more indicative of how good a team is. A lot of teams have made runs in the tournament, getting hot at the right time, playing well together. But as history shows, you are more likely to have sucess in the tournament if you have a good regular season record, higher probability of winning).

 

[MSOrange]

So hear me out.

In any other job or profession in the world, you get old enough and either retire, are forced to retire, or are kindly told to retire rather than being fired. At some point, you can no longer perform the daily tasks that your job requires of you. But for some reason, it seems like head coaches always get a pass and legends are able to go out on their own terms even though they have a lack of success at the end of their tenure (bobby bowden, frank beamer, etc)

What Jim has done for the University and the City as a whole is incredible and should be applauded and celebrated. He has won a championship, brought the city and university a ton of success and notoriety that it would not get otherwise, and is a Hall of Fame coach. What he has achieved in his career is unbeleivable and almost unfathomable. I have enjoyed what he has done in my short 32 years, and absolutely adore him. I will be thankful and always remember what he did for the city, the team, and the fun and enjoyment he gave me as a fan. He will always be remembered as a legend in the Syracuse community.

BUT...

If this was any other profession, he would be fired or forced into retirement due to his lack of success. There still needs to be a level of accountability, Jim should not be above this review. He is essentialy being held on to due to his past success and accomplishments, and I am not sure why this is the norm? Past success does not guarentee future success. It would be one thing if this was a year or two situation, but that is not the case. As I believe Alasc's posted the other day Jimmy is closing in on 7 straight 13 loss seasons, and as I mentioned later in the article that he had only 4 such seasons from 1969-2014 when this streak started.

I ask why has nothing changed? Do I think it is time for the university to step in and move on? Yes, I do. But besides my believe, why has nothing changed in this seven year run? No change in recruiting philosophy, no change in assistants, no pressure from the athletic department or university? I guess I just do not understand why past history makes someone invincible. If this was football for example, coordinators would be changed, head coaches would be changed, facilities would be altered, etc.

Maybe the bottom line is I am not a nostalgic person. But I am also not a fly by the seat of your pants type of guy either. I feel like Jim has had plenty of time to right the ship, but it just has not happened. I didn't start to believe he should be forced out until the end of last year up until this past week. But as many others here have stated I have started to become ambivalent on game days. I used to get overjoyed, and that feeling is just missing now because I continue to see the same stuff occur over and over again, which leads to many loses.

I guess the whole point of this post was to wonder aloud and see what you guys think, why are legends given too much leeway after several continuos poor years of success? What have people seen over the last 7 years that tell you we are trending in the right direction? (and yes, Im very aware we went to the final four in 2016, but we still barely made the tournament. I believe Regular season wins and losses is more indicative of how good a team is. A lot of teams have made runs in the tournament, getting hot at the right time, playing well together. But as history shows, you are more likely to have sucess in the tournament if you have a good regular season record, higher probability of winning).

I think you hit on it. Many fans are into the nostalgia aspect of sports and are reluctant to let that go. Also I think that JB took a lot of undeserved criticism early in his career, so I think his biggest supporters get defensive when he gets deserved criticism at this point

 

[SarasotaPaul]

I think you hit on it. Many fans are into the nostalgia aspect of sports and are reluctant to let that go. Also I think that JB took a lot of undeserved criticism early in his career, so I think his biggest supporters get defensive when he gets deserved criticism at this point

Or maybe they get defensive when he is still getting undeserved criticism. Your point is just an opinion and not anywhere near a fact. Many fans are into the what have you done in the last 15 seconds. They have a problem with facts that contribute to successes and a failures. They discount them as excuses or some such word playing nonsense. As for being more likely to have success based on regular season success. The operative word is more likely. SU has not fit into that more likely scenario. So this point is lacks validity. You may not understand the last 7 years was a huge byproduct of a vindictive NCAA witch hunt orchestrated by its president who hates SU. This guy was caught on an open mike he thought was off during that investigation trashing SU proving his unmitigated bias. They took several years to come up with minor infractions while ignoring massive infractions by so many other programs. So yes the last 7 years have been hard but mostly due to the sanctions. How anyone who is a fan can dismiss this is not being honest. They would have to know and understand this I would think.

 

[CU44SE]

Or maybe they get defensive when he is still getting undeserved criticism. Your point is just an opinion and not anywhere near a fact. Many fans are into the what have you done in the last 15 seconds. They have a problem with facts that contribute to successes and a failures. They discount them as excuses or some such word playing nonsense. As for being more likely to have success based on regular season success. The operative word is more likely. SU has not fit into that more likely scenario. So this point is lacks validity. You may not understand the last 7 years was a huge byproduct of a vindictive NCAA witch hunt orchestrated by its president who hates SU. This guy was caught on an open mike he thought was off during that investigation trashing SU proving his unmitigated bias. They took several years to come up with minor infractions while ignoring massive infractions by so many other programs. So yes the last 7 years have been hard but mostly due to the sanctions. How anyone who is a fan can dismiss this is not being honest. They would have to know and understand this I would think.

Yes, the NCAA sanctions were a joke. I think everyone can agree on that. But a reduction of 2 scholarships should have been manageable especially since Jim does not play a deep bench anyways. Our recruiting has taken a nose dive however. We are no longer getting highly ranked recruits comparative to what we have done in the past. A reduction of 2 scholarships, still leaving the team to have 11 schlorships shouldn’t mean that recruiting plummets the way that it has.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

He's a hall of fame coach and he's earned it. There are plenty of high level executives that hang on forever for a many reasons. It helps if you look at it like Syracuse basketball as his business that he started and grew to a ridiculous level and now does not want to retire or sell the business. Sure everyone knows he's past his prime and probably should have retired 5-6 years ago, IMO. Happens everywhere in many different businesses. To me he's more like a small business owner that started from nothing that doesn't want to sell or step down as the people that work for him do the heavy lifting and he sits in his office and plays solitaire on the computer.

I disagree with your "if this was any other business" take It happens a lot in many different businesses. Like I said, I agree with you in that he should have retired awhile ago

 

[CU44SE]

He's a hall of fame coach and he's earned it. There are plenty of high level executives that hang on forever for a many reasons. It helps if you look at it like Syracuse basketball as his business that he started and grew to a ridiculous level and now does not want to retire or sell the business. Sure everyone knows he's past his prime and probably should have retired 5-6 years ago, IMO. Happens everywhere in many different businesses. To me he's more like a small business owner that started from nothing that doesn't want to sell or step down as the people that work for him do the heavy lifting and he sits in his office and plays solitaire on the computer.

I disagree with your "if this was any other business" take It happens a lot in many different businesses. Like I said, I agree with you in that he should have retired awhile ago

yes, I totally understand that. I understand why he doesn’t want to leave. But he isn’t the owner, the University is. And they could make the decision for him. It shouldn’t be his decision. That’s my ultimate point. Is why does the university not step in and force him out after several down years. They are hurting their product. This is a what have you done for me lately business. 7 straight years is a trend, and IMO an acceptable time period.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

yes, I totally understand that. I understand why he doesn’t want to leave. But he isn’t the owner, the University is. And they could make the decision for him. It shouldn’t be his decision. That’s my ultimate point. Is why does the university not step in and force him out after several down years. They are hurting their product. This is a what have you done for me lately business. 7 straight years is a trend, and IMO an acceptable time period.

I understand he isn't the owner but it feels a lot more like that though doesn't it? He's not going to be fired or forced to retire and I think that has become clear and that is where it feels like he is running his own business that he started, they are along for the ride really. I am not saying it's right but that is the reality of the situation and it most likely won't end well. It already isn't ending well. The fact that his son is now on the team hasn't helped to accelerate the retirement either. Also remember the fanbase at Syracuse has really kind of aged along with JB, he has his loyalists

He's been there what 43-44 years or whatever it is, it's really kind of crazy and that kind of nullifies the "what have you done for me lately part of the business" The next coach may get 3 years tops

 

[CousCuse]

Or maybe they get defensive when he is still getting undeserved criticism. Your point is just an opinion and not anywhere near a fact. Many fans are into the what have you done in the last 15 seconds. They have a problem with facts that contribute to successes and a failures. They discount them as excuses or some such word playing nonsense. As for being more likely to have success based on regular season success. The operative word is more likely. SU has not fit into that more likely scenario. So this point is lacks validity. You may not understand the last 7 years was a huge byproduct of a vindictive NCAA witch hunt orchestrated by its president who hates SU. This guy was caught on an open mike he thought was off during that investigation trashing SU proving his unmitigated bias. They took several years to come up with minor infractions while ignoring massive infractions by so many other programs. So yes the last 7 years have been hard but mostly due to the sanctions. How anyone who is a fan can dismiss this is not being honest. They would have to know and understand this I would think.

100% Paul. The first NCAA attack on the program was orchestrated by by leagues that wanted to stop the Big East from taking their strangle hold on college basketball. Syracuse was the clear marquee team with it's brand new Carrier dome and genius coach Jim Boeheim. The second is as you stated. In neither case was the smoking gun of paying players large sums of money to come to the program found to be a fact. And, neither was institutionalized grade changing to keep non academically eligible players able to play. Yet, the NCAA found that UNC created a shill course of studies (I'm sure other programs do as well to some degree) and no problem. Then the FBI investigates and finds that numerous programs are acting as conduits for sneaker companies to pay off and secure potential stars for their brands. Both of these things were then swepped under the rug.

 

[Newhouser]

Look at politics and power brokers in DC. 70 is the new 30.

 

[SoBristol]

JB was prepared to hand over the role in 2018. When Washington lured Hopkins away in 2017, JB agreed to stay on to provide stability. You can debate the wisdom of that decision, or the length of JB's extension, if you wish. But at least acknowledge that there was a retirement plan, interrupted by events.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Or maybe they get defensive when he is still getting undeserved criticism. Your point is just an opinion and not anywhere near a fact. Many fans are into the what have you done in the last 15 seconds. They have a problem with facts that contribute to successes and a failures. They discount them as excuses or some such word playing nonsense. As for being more likely to have success based on regular season success. The operative word is more likely. SU has not fit into that more likely scenario. So this point is lacks validity. You may not understand the last 7 years was a huge byproduct of a vindictive NCAA witch hunt orchestrated by its president who hates SU. This guy was caught on an open mike he thought was off during that investigation trashing SU proving his unmitigated bias. They took several years to come up with minor infractions while ignoring massive infractions by so many other programs. So yes the last 7 years have been hard but mostly due to the sanctions. How anyone who is a fan can dismiss this is not being honest. They would have to know and understand this I would think.

The sanctions argument is old. It doesn’t hold water anymore. You cling to it so that you can continue to say ’Boeheim can do no wrong’.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

He's a hall of fame coach and he's earned it. There are plenty of high level executives that hang on forever for a many reasons. It helps if you look at it like Syracuse basketball as his business that he started and grew to a ridiculous level and now does not want to retire or sell the business. Sure everyone knows he's past his prime and probably should have retired 5-6 years ago, IMO. Happens everywhere in many different businesses. To me he's more like a small business owner that started from nothing that doesn't want to sell or step down as the people that work for him do the heavy lifting and he sits in his office and plays solitaire on the computer.

I disagree with your "if this was any other business" take It happens a lot in many different businesses. Like I said, I agree with you in that he should have retired awhile ago

The point is, Boeheim doesn’t own the business. The shareholders do. But until the Board of Directors (BOT in this case) decide that he’s bad for business, he’ll get to stay. The product be damned.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

JB was prepared to hand over the role in 2018. When Washington lured Hopkins away in 2017, JB agreed to stay on to provide stability. You can debate the wisdom of that decision, or the length of JB's extension, if you wish. But at least acknowledge that there was a retirement plan, interrupted by events.

Wow. The extreme example of alternate facts... Keep repeating this over and over again. Maybe in another 100 years it’ll be true

 

[CousCuse]

The point is, Boeheim doesn’t own the business. The shareholders do. But until the Board of Directors (BOT in this case) decide that he’s bad for business, he’ll get to stay. The product be damned.

The point is that you are so blinded by your kingdom of hate that you can't see that the team has got its legs under them now and has turned the corner. Just watch and learn.

 

[MSOrange]

CousCuse vs Salt Lake Orange - fasten your seat belts for this.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

The point is that you are so blinded by your kingdom of hate that you can't see that the team has got its legs under them now and has turned the corner. Just watch and learn.

Kingdom of hate? No, not quite. Do I want a new coach sooner than later? You bet. Do I recognize JB‘s contributions to the program? You bet.

And wrt ‘team has got their legs under them now’, I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

CousCuse vs Salt Lake Orange - fasten your seat belts for this.

It‘s okay. I have little need to engage in a war with a zealot...

 

[CousCuse]

Kingdom of hate? No, not quite. Do I want a new coach sooner than later? You bet. Do I recognize JB‘s contributions to the program? You bet?

And wrt ‘team has got their legs under them now’, I’ll believe it when I see it.

Our team is down more than 30 practices do to the virus. Jesse couldn't come back all summer, he got even more behind. It appears to me that they now have enough momentum to be solid.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Our team is down more than 30 practices do to the virus. Jesse couldn't come back all summer, he got even more behind. It appears to me that they now have enough momentum to be solid.

Pitt missed just as many practices as we did. But that’s beside the point.

I loved what I saw on Tuesday. If JB lets Joe play off the ball, we have a chance to be a pretty good team. I just don’t think he’ll allow Buddy’s minutes to go down plus he’ll need Griffin on the floor. That’ll make Kadary the odd man out. Minus Kadary, our defense is HORRIBLE and our offense isn’t as effective. Time will tell but I find It hard to believe that JB will suddenly decide that JG and BB don‘t deserve 35+.

 

[Sherman20]

Pitt missed just as many practices as we did. But that’s beside the point.

I loved what I saw on Tuesday. If JB lets Joe play off the ball, we have a chance to be a pretty good team. I just don’t think he’ll allow Buddy’s minutes to go down plus he’ll need Griffin on the floor. That’ll make Kadary the odd man out. Minus Kadary, our defense is HORRIBLE and our offense isn’t as effective. Time will tell but I find It hard to believe that JB will suddenly decide that JG and BB don‘t deserve 35+.

I hope you’re wrong. Because I don’t get how this is hard for JB to grasp now. Dion Waiters, who was inarguably a better offensive and defensive player than Buddy and was one of the best guards in the country his sophomore year, averaged around 30mpg, maybe less that season. JB understood the importance of rotating minutes between Dion, Scoop and Triche at the guard spots. Triche’s minutes actually went down from the previous season. I know Buddy is a good player, but come on, it’s absurd for him to play 40mpg.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The point is, Boeheim doesn’t own the business. The shareholders do. But until the Board of Directors (BOT in this case) decide that he’s bad for business, he’ll get to stay. The product be damned.

Feels like the NY stock exchange is getting ready to delist the stock. Shareholders would definitely want to prevent that from happening.

No, we're not actually there yet, but the trend is definitely on a downward slope.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Our team is down more than 30 practices do to the virus. Jesse couldn't come back all summer, he got even more behind. It appears to me that they now have enough momentum to be solid.

Jesse may have played more all summer than our guys. Did you not see the postings about that?

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I hope you’re wrong. Because I don’t get how this is hard for JB to grasp now. Dion Waiters, who was inarguably a better offensive and defensive player than Buddy and was one of the best guards in the country his sophomore year, averaged around 30mpg, maybe less that season. JB understood the importance of rotating minutes between Dion, Scoop and Triche at the guard spots. Triche’s minutes actually went down from the previous season. I know Buddy is a good player, but come on, it’s absurd for him to play 40mpg.

I hope I’m wrong too!

 

[SoBristol]

Wow. The extreme example of alternate facts... Keep repeating this over and over again. Maybe in another 100 years it’ll be true

And your facts are what? It is true, believe what you want.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

And your facts are what? It is true, believe what you want.

LOL...Jim Boeheim, Savior of the Universe...