Worst period in Syracuse football

[Consigliere]

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.

 

[NineOneSeven]

10-37

 

[sutomcat]

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.

It's like, which disease would you prefer, Ebola or Bubonic Plague?

I guess since SU admins seriously considered downgrading football circa the early to mid 1970s, and our facilities were awful across the board, that was the lowest point for SU football.

The GRob era gets the silver medal.

The late 1940s were also a really bad time. I give that era the bronze. Those were dark times for All4SU. Thank goodness for the invention of TV and synthetic rubber.

 

[dollarbill44]

I'd rather not discuss the one who shall not be mentioned.

 

[billsin01]

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.

It would have been fun if the marketing department had adopted the slogan "Syracuse football: Arguably not the worst it's ever been!"

I have no idea if it was the worst or not but it certainly felt like the worst. I think the best way to put GRob's struggles into context is to point out that he faced very tough circumstances even compared to his direct predecessor.

Consider:

1) the facilities that were lacking and old under P were older and lacking-er under GRob.

2) Recruiting -- for whatever reason(s) -- had clearly fallen off a cliff the last few seasons prior to GRob's arrival. We were, of course, already well into the "when will we finally find an adequate replacement for McNabb" era and we were nowhere near our mid-to-late 90s levels anywhere else. We were basically being shut out in Jersey.

3) Competition was better -- BC was solid. People may hate Schiano but he was clearly more of a thorn in our sides than Graver/Shea, Pitt was hurting us on the recruiting trail with Wanny and their new facilities, UConn had appeared out of nowhere, WVU was at it's height with RichRod, L'ville was pretty impressive with Petrino and even USF probably cut into what we were trying to do in South Florida. People forget this but we rose to the top when Miami was struggling with sanctions, VATech was still growing into it's potential, RU was a mess (mostly), BC was going through the gambling scandal and fallout (missed a bowl in 7 straight years, I believe, in the 90s), Temple was a gift from the scheduling gods every year, UConn was fielding a club team ...

It's not knocking P nor suggesting that either he or DM are bad coaches or that GRob was a good one ... or even decent one. But I do think you have to give Gump a bit of credit for facing a massive uphill battle. And for a guy who had trouble putting together a coherent sentence at press conferences, it was simply too much to ask.

 

[billsin01]

I'd rather not discuss the one who shall not be mentioned.

As a syracuse fan I'm offended that you don't want to discuss the darkest cloud in the sky. It's what makes us syracuse fans. Disappointing.

 

[bevosu]

I spent most of the 1970's at SU. Went to many Archbold football games.

Things were not good, but I never felt as down about the program as I did when it became apparent that choo choo man had shifted the gear into reverse and had his foot on the gas.

A lot of my perception has to do with what I considered the quality of football I was watching. Those 70's teams weren't the most successful won/loss teams in SU history, but they had some exciting football (and players) in their game. Choo choo man's teams bored (after thinking it over, depressed would have been a better word) the hell out of me.

What a nightmare.

 

[dollarbill44]

As a syracuse fan I'm offended that you don't want to discuss the darkest cloud in the sky. It's what makes us syracuse fans. Disappointing.

I've never been the "typical" SU fan. I actually prefer football over picking apples. Raking leaves can wait until Sunday. I don't mind walking a mile from a parking spot. I am in my seat before the coin toss and I stay until the final whistle or watch on tv until the network switches games on me.

 

[OrangePA]

It would have been fun if the marketing department had adopted the slogan "Syracuse football: Arguably not the worst it's ever been!"

I have no idea if it was the worst or not but it certainly felt like the worst. I think the best way to put GRob's struggles into context is to point out that he faced very tough circumstances even compared to his direct predecessor.

Consider:

1) the facilities that were lacking and old under P were older and lacking-er under GRob.

2) Recruiting -- for whatever reason(s) -- had clearly fallen off a cliff the last few seasons prior to GRob's arrival. We were, of course, already well into the "when will we finally find an adequate replacement for McNabb" era and we were nowhere near our mid-to-late 90s levels anywhere else. We were basically being shut out in Jersey.

3) Competition was better -- BC was solid. People may hate Schiano but he was clearly more of a thorn in our sides than Graver/Shea, Pitt was hurting us on the recruiting trail with Wanny and their new facilities, UConn had appeared out of nowhere, WVU was at it's height with RichRod, L'ville was pretty impressive with Petrino and even USF probably cut into what we were trying to do in South Florida. People forget this but we rose to the top when Miami was struggling with sanctions, VATech was still growing into it's potential, RU was a mess (mostly), BC was going through the gambling scandal and fallout (missed a bowl in 7 straight years, I believe, in the 90s), Temple was a gift from the scheduling gods every year, UConn was fielding a club team ...

It's not knocking P nor suggesting that either he or DM are bad coaches or that GRob was a good one ... or even decent one. But I do think you have to give Gump a bit of credit for facing a massive uphill battle. And for a guy who had trouble putting together a coherent sentence at press conferences, it was simply too much to ask.

Actually the facilities were enhanced under Robinson.

The AstroTurf was removed from the Dome.

Field Turf practice fields were installed.

And the new werght room came online.

Plus coaches salaries were increased a great deal.

I can't give Robinson the kind of credit you suggest - he was given way more than P was given and he inherited a 6-6 bowl team with a lot of very good players returning on the defensive side of the ball, plus a returning QB, much of the OL and the top RB.

 

[mountaincuse]

I've never been the "typical" SU fan. I actually prefer football over picking apples. Raking leaves can wait until Sunday. I don't mind walking a mile from a parking spot. I am in my seat before the coin toss and I stay until the final whistle or watch on tv until the network switches games on me.

Amen

 

[All4SU]

The late 1940s were also a really bad time. I give that era the bronze. Those were dark times for All4SU.

You got that right, bub.

 

[OrangeAl]

You got that right, bub.

Funny that Ben's glory years are sandwiched between two of the worst eras in SU football history. He was the hero for ending one of them and the goat for ushering in the other.

 

[Hicks Street]

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.

I would make a distinction between "worst" football and "darkest period." The possibility of the program being de-emphasized and downgraded coupled with decaying facilities probably makes the 1970's the darkest period.

From a simply bad football perspective, the Robinson years strike me as the worst. The teams in the mid 2000's were routinely overmatched and ill-prepared. I do not think that the competition during the Robinson period was any better than the competition faced by Maloney's teams. During the Maloney period Syracuse often faced Penn State and Pitt on back to back weeks. For much of that decade these were two perennial top ten if not top five teams. While often beaten by superior teams, Maloney's bunch were rarely embarassed by superior or inferior opponents. Additionally, Syracuse played what was called a "national schedule" back then.

A word on the late 1940's: Like many schools Syracuse suspended its football team for a year during World War II (1943). When the team resumed play in 1944, it suffered mediocre results through 1948. In 1949 Schwartzwalder became coach. He had a losing record (4-5) in 1949 and did not have another until 1972.

 

[billsin01]

Actually the facilities were enhanced under Robinson. ...

This would appear to be true but the feeling seems to be that even with the new facility plans we're still not even close to the same ballpark as the big boys. And we still spend far less on our coaches, I believe, than the big boys. The improvements are fine but it doesn't change the general perception that seems to pervade this board which is that the facilities are lacking.

I can't give Robinson the kind of credit you suggest - he was given way more than P was given and he inherited a 6-6 bowl team with a lot of very good players returning on the defensive side of the ball, plus a returning QB, much of the OL and the top RB.

Dude, you have a tendency to only address the points you want to address and then change them slightly to fit your argument. For example, at no point do you address the effects of more competition in the immediate area with Edsall and Schiano each assembling credible regional programs and BC rolling along as opposed to scrambling to recover from the gambling thing and/or scuffling with Spaz in the ACC.

How about the fact that VaTech wasn't VaTech until the very late 90s and early 2000s -- also known as the beginning of our precipitous decline. How about the fact that WVU was struggling at the end of the Nehlan era and Miami was in the Scott Clement/post-sanctions era when we were trouncing them?

Then you have a tendency to change points slightly to fit your argument. "Lots of very good players" is fine but I clearly stated that our talent level had dropped significantly since the glory days of the mid-90s when we were running Konrad, McNabb, KJ, Bullock, Allen, Darius ... out there. I mean, you're really going to argue that? Why, b/c we had Damien Rhodes, Jason Greene and Wyche and LaCasse? And having Perry Patterson back was a good thing for GRob?

Listen, GRob was a disaster and P was a very good coach. But every success or failure has a context and to argue that GRob didn't face a massive uphill battle from Day 1 is absurd. It's not to suggest he wasn't a disaster but merely that he faced a confluence of factors that didn't make things easy for him. And, by the way, aren't you the one who blames P's lackluster final few years on the administration/facilities/fan support/wind patterns/snowfall totals and basically anything other than P's actual coaching and recruiting?

 

[gocraz4dasu]

I would definitely say the GROB era was easily the worst period in SU football history. We struggled to even get a player drafted in those years, atleast in the 1970s we still could pump out some NFL talent despite the lackluster records. During GROB we totally sucked in our overall record and talent that moved onto the next level which are two of the three most important things I judge a CFB coach on, personally. The other is continual growth/expansion/improvement in the whole state of program and GROB failed miserably at all three. Unforgivable and I honestly wish him nothing but the worst for him in his coaching career (he obviously doesn't need my help with that because he's doing that all on his own). I'll forever hate GROB.

 

[OrangeAl]

I would definitely say the GROB era was easily the worst period in SU football history. We struggled to even get a player drafted in those years, atleast in the 1970s we still could pump out some NFL talent despite the lackluster records. During GROB we totally sucked in our overall record and talent that moved onto the next level which are two of the three most important things I judge a CFB coach on, personally. The other is continual growth/expansion/improvement in the whole state of program and GROB failed miserably at all three. Unforgivable and I honestly wish him nothing but the worst for him in his coaching career (he obviously doesn't need my help with that because he's doing that all on his own). I'll forever hate GROB.

The GRob era was quite an anomaly. There was talent there, but the coaching and discipline just failed miserably. In the early '70's the talent got really poor, the coaching staff was way behind times, and the facilities were laughable. So I vote for that as the low point (though I wasn't around to see the late '40's).

 

[PeteCalvin]

Actually the facilities were enhanced under Robinson.

The AstroTurf was removed from the Dome.

Field Turf practice fields were installed.

And the new werght room came online.

Plus coaches salaries were increased a great deal.

I can't give Robinson the kind of credit you suggest - he was given way more than P was given and he inherited a 6-6 bowl team with a lot of very good players returning on the defensive side of the ball, plus a returning QB, much of the OL and the top RB.

Robinson may have been more successful if he had brought in a competent college OC for his first year. Pariani had me yearning for Run, Run, Pass, Punt. He was that bad.

 

[bnoro]

We went 1-11. We lost to Akron. We almost lost to Northeastern. We got dismantled by Penn State and the Dome was at least half PSU fans.

 

[Chip]

We went 1-11. We lost to Akron. We almost lost to Northeastern. We got dismantled by Penn State and the Dome was at least half PSU fans.

Penn State was a bit of bad timing too. If you look at the last 10 years of PSU football that was by far the best, legit Top 5. Not like SU hasn't been completely dismantled by good teams even when times were better.

But what happened the week before that PSU game, that was the real problem with the GRob era.

Bad coach, bad recruiting leading in because of bad facilities (as bills pointed out) it was the perfect storm of badness. We stood by and watched our competitors build up around us. Luckily we have the kind of brand name that gives us a chance to right all of the wrongs. Thanks ACC.

 

[tipphill]

maloney was better than people gave him credit for,facilities and the boycott caused ben s. recruiting and demise(by the way the boycott year was bens greatest coaching) p was a mediocre coach who inherited arguably national champ caliber talent, also done in by the rise of ru, and the facilities war,grob just a bad coach but did recruit as best he could. many seem to forget that when su was traditionally good we recruited nj very well---schiano locked us out,(so did our lack of investment in our facilities

 

[ForeverOrange]

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.

I just want to say, glad I wasn't alive to see ANY of that. The last couple years with coach P and the whole Grob era were painful enough for me. Being a fan is like riding in a taxi cab, you know where you want to be, but just not sure what route will be taken to get there.

 

[baggerbob]

In reality Buzz and Jake both overstayed their welcome, we needed new leadership that was able to function in this century. The previous adminstration was to tied to the past, didn't see the changing landscape, until too late.

 

[All4SU]

maloney was better than people gave him credit for, (AGREE) facilities and the boycott caused ben s. recruiting and demise(by the way the boycott year was bens greatest coaching) (AGREE) p was a mediocre coach who inherited arguably national champ caliber talent, (DISAGREE - not NC talent. Very good talent and a good system) also done in by the rise of ru, and the facilities war, (AGREE) grob just a bad coach but did recruit as best he could. (AGREE) many seem to forget that when su was traditionally good we recruited nj very well---schiano locked us out,(so did our lack of investment in our facilities (AGREE - Our dropoff in NJ was been a big factor.)

Not bad, you're 5 - 1.

 

[OrangeAl]

In reality Buzz and Jake both overstayed their welcome, we needed new leadership that was able to function in this century. The previous adminstration was to tied to the past, didn't see the changing landscape, until too late.

Buzz had a "small" vision for SU. He pictured a slimmed-down 10,000 undergrad enrollment with tightly budgeted athletics that turned all their money over to the general fund (a cash cow).
Where is SU now? A 14,000 undergrad enrollment school that is making some better investment in their athletic programs (though at the expense of some of the "minor" men's programs).
I like the Nancy vision better than the Buzz vision, even though he could easily take her to the hoop.

 

[liljoe]

1999 to 2004...

It was like watching one of those national geographic specials about African wildlife. More specifically, watching a Lion hunt down a baby gazelle. You know what's coming, you know it doesn't end well, but somehow the gazelle just won't go down.

"It's all over, poor little gazelle is down..."

""Wait, he's up!"

"Oooops, nope, now it's over..."

"Wait, look! He's up again!"

Eventually the lion mercifully crushes the gazelles throat and everyone moves on. You just wish it ended sooner as your kid is now on the floor in tears after having their emotions jerked around, and you're left picking up the pieces.

Sean Keeley makes a statement over on the Nunes blog that HCDM shouldn't be considered to be on the hot seat since "Marrone took over the program at the worst point in the history of the school."

Begs the question did Greg Robinson actually preside over the worst? From my days on the hill in the mid to late 70s I'd argue with that position. The year before my freshman year (73 - 74) was Coach Ben's last and we went 2-9 followed by another 2-9, a 6-5 anomaly and a 3-8. playing in decrepit Archbold Stadium with real conversations about de-emphasizing football and moving down to I-AA.

Although Robinson's final W-L of 10-37 is statistically worse than Frank Maloney's 37-46 he "achieved" that against a generally tougher slate of opponents and in a better position overall in terms of health of the program (facilities, conference affiliation, national relevance).

To me, the mid 70's wasthe darkest period but the Robinson era market the sharpest decline.

Discuss.