WR - Something has to give.

[OttoinGrotto]

We will NEVER compete for anything if we can't score 30 points a game. (OttoinGrotto explained to me that to win we need to score more points than the other team.)

It seems so obvious and straightforward, yet you see so many coaches try to do it different ways.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

A returing senior, two year starter, and three year featured player, who has been the #4, #3, and #2 receiver on the team is not going to be displaced by a true freshmen and/or a RS So who has played in 5 games and has nine career receptions vs 36 games and 85 receptions.

Why not? I'd say that's just as likely as Funderburke being the number one guy and you seem to think that's possible.

 

[GoSU96]

Why not? I'd say that's just as likely as Funderburke being the number one guy and you seem to think that's possible.

I didn't say he would be the #1 receiver, that was the evaluation of the former HC and OC. So that was very possible actually. And if he has whatever he needed to get together together, still would be. And I'll point out again, there isn't another player on the SU roster that reportedly had offers from Bama, Clemson, USC, WVU, Arkansas, PSU, Michigan and a bunch of other BCS teams. Not a single one. That's what makes it possible. It's probably pretty normal that a player with that evaluation from an NFL HC and OC and offers from that list of schools ends up at least a starter if not the #1 receiver on a lot of D-1 teams.

Is West being replaced possible, sure, anything is possible, as likely, no friggin way. Aside from injury or discipline issues, you have any examples where a 5th year sr, two year starter, is displaced by a true freshmen coming off a year where he is the second leading receiver? I would think that's a very unusual event.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

I didn't say he would be the #1 receiver, that was the evaluation of the former HC and OC. So that was very possible actually. And if he has whatever he needed to get together together, still would be. And I'll point out again, there isn't another player on the SU roster that reportedly had offers from Bama, Clemson, USC, WVU, Arkansas, PSU, Michigan and a bunch of other BCS teams. Not a single one. That's what makes it possible. It's probably pretty normal that a player with that evaluation from an NFL HC and OC and offers from that list of schools ends up at least a starter if not the #1 receiver on a lot of D-1 teams.

Is West being replaced possible, sure, anything is possible, as likely, no friggin way. Aside from injury or discipline issues, you have any examples where a 5th year sr, two year starter, is displaced by a true freshmen coming off a year where he is the second leading receiver? I would think that's a very unusual event.

West had 26 receptions for 396 yards and 1 TD. That's two receptions and 30 yards a game. If that isn't the definition of replaceable, I don't know what is. I'm not saying they will pull his scholly and boot him from the team. They obviously won't. I am saying they will find 3 receivers and an Hback that they believe will be more productive than that (We already have two in Broyld and Estime so we are really just talking about 2 WR better than that) and if that is the case, the talent ought to play not the player with the most seniority. I want to win, dammit, and to facilitate that I'd like the most talented players most likely to help the team to get the playing time. Shame on me!

 

[Pyle]

West had 26 receptions for 396 yards and 1 TD. That's two receptions and 30 yards a game. If that isn't the definition of replaceable, I don't know what is. I'm not saying they will pull his scholly and boot him from the team. They obviously won't. I am saying they will find 3 receivers and an Hback that they believe will be more productive than that (We already have two in Broyld and Estime so we are really just talking about 2 WR better than that) and if that is the case, the talent ought to play not the player with the most seniority. I want to win, dammit, and to facilitate that I'd like the most talented players most likely to help the team to get the playing time. Shame on me!

Shame on nothing. You have a right to feel that way. But you need to consider more than 40 speed. Run blocking, defense recognition, ability to beat press coverage, knowledge of the playbook, etc are all critical and West has a lot more beef and a lot more knowledge of the offense than any new guys who won't even be at spring practice. Yeah the new guys are fast enough to give us a deep threat we are currently lacking but don't expect to see them in anything more than certain packages. You throw a bunch of true or RS frosh out there against FSU or Clemson and we don't stand a chance. Heck they wouldn't stand a chance against Pitt or BC for that matter.

 

[GoSU96]

West had 26 receptions for 396 yards and 1 TD. That's two receptions and 30 yards a game. If that isn't the definition of replaceable, I don't know what is. I'm not saying they will pull his scholly and boot him from the team. They obviously won't. I am saying they will find 3 receivers and an Hback that they believe will be more productive than that (We already have two in Broyld and Estime so we are really just talking about 2 WR better than that) and if that is the case, the talent ought to play not the player with the most seniority. I want to win, dammit, and to facilitate that I'd like the most talented players most likely to help the team to get the playing time. Shame on me!

So you are going to make your decision based on last years numbers.

Then you better bench the whole lot.

West led the team in yds per game, and yds per catch for anyone who caught more than three passes (Funderburk is the technical leader in yds per catch at 16.7, West 15.3). Broyld and Estime were under 10 yds per catch. West was 2nd in total yds in 11 games. Broyld had 55 more yds and two more games to do it.

He caught two less passes than Estime and had 140 more yds for the season.

If you want to look at the receivers numbers you have to take into account that 20 different guys received a pass last year. The split up up 236 receptions. Last year 12 guys split up 296.

10 guys lined up at WR last year and caught a pass this year, last year 5 WR's did, and those 5 split up 23 more receptions.

If you want to get worked up about the production of any single player, maybe you should look at the OC.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Is West being replaced possible, sure, anything is possible, as likely, no friggin way. Aside from injury or discipline issues, you have any examples where a 5th year sr, two year starter, is displaced by a true freshmen coming off a year where he is the second leading receiver? I would think that's a very unusual event.

I'm not saying he'll sit the bench, but I do think he'll get fewer reps unless he improves a lot. The other thing that I think needs to be taken in to account is that I'm sure these incoming guys were told that opportunities for immediate PT are waiting for them.

Look, would you have expected that after being the 3rd guy and catching 43 passes that as the #1 guy he'd have fewer receptions than that the next season?

 

[syr02esq]

He's been kept off the field intentionally while he clears up some extracurricular things, right? And Shafer said that he's done a good job. So if those things really are behind him, I am eager to see what he can do. The lack of production isn't because he's a bad football player.

He did get a chance to play in several games and in those games he wasn't exactly the star of the WRs, right?

 

[syr02esq]

Waiting patiently? He couldn't play season before this because he was a transfer, he was forced to sit out by NCAA rules.

It was this staff's decision, evidently for reasons not related to his ability to play, to not participate for much of the season.

FYI, Funderburk was seen as the #1 receiver by Marrone and Hackett. I'll go with that evaluation and the evaluation of many of the best programs in the country that the kid can play.

He did get a chance to play in several games and in those games he wasn't exactly the star of the WRs, right? And if off-the-field reasons prevented him from participating the rest of the games, that's on him right?

 

[Crusty]

The issue to me is that players with skill levels comparable to West are not going to bring us to the next level. He is serviceable enough but he is not what I would consider a play maker by an y means. SU simply has stunk on the offensive side of the ball for over a decade now and if we are ever to sniff the top 25 again we need to score points. Even last years 30.0 PPG average is not enough. WR are critical to our development and I would just as soon see us play the younger players to develop for the future. Just my view.

 

[GoSU96]

He did get a chance to play in several games and in those games he wasn't exactly the star of the WRs, right? And if off-the-field reasons prevented him from participating the rest of the games, that's on him right?

He got a chance? Several games?

He played in mop up time against Northwestern, a couple of snaps against Pitt, and was in the rotation against BC.

That's very limited. And we have no idea what the underlying issue was.

Maybe he's a bust, but based on what I've been told, the prior staff had him pencilled in as the #1 receiver and he was excellent on the scout team, so there's a lot of reason to believe that he can play.

If you are so impatient, that's your problem.

 

[GoSU96]

The issue to me is that players with skill levels comparable to West are not going to bring us to the next level. He is serviceable enough but he is not what I would consider a play maker by an y means. SU simply has stunk on the offensive side of the ball for over a decade now and if we are ever to sniff the top 25 again we need to score points. Even last years 30.0 PPG average is not enough. WR are critical to our development and I would just as soon see us play the younger players to develop for the future. Just my view.

You play the guys that give a the best chance to win today. The program isn't in rebuilding mode. You are going to have a veteran OL, TE group, returning QB, three returning TB's with a experience. You are going to start from scratch at WR, you are going to go with a Sr and two Jr's that go 6/3 221, 6/2 2o3, and 6/2 2o1 as your base. Obviously rotate the young guys in, find a guy that can take the top off the defense, but your core group are the experienced guys, your leadership.

Do the younger guys have better 4o times, probably, but that's not the be all and end all and by itself doesn't define "talent".

 

[RF2044]

An upgrade of talent is always needed, but you are completely discounting experience, continuity, and the ability of 21 and 22 year olds that have gone through four and five years of strenght and conditioning and college coaching over kids coming in out of HS.

If the choice was between Flemming, Hale, and Lewis vs the new kids, it would be a no brainer, but that's not the choice.

That's true. And there is more to playing the WR position in our offense than just receptions--blocking is key.

But I look at West as a #3 receiver. Solid, complimentary player. I don't think any of the new guys displace him from that type of role. Maybe he'll even step up, but I think it is more likely that he'll continue to fill the same role he had the last two years.

IMO, Estime was the only real playmaker in the WR corps last season. And it took him half a season before he got comfortable enough for the coaching staff to start infusing him with consistent playing time. And by no means am I suggesting that he had the physical tools / experience to be a stud #1 receiver. Just that he was the only one in the group [I'll exclude Funderburke from this discussion, as we haven't seen what he is capable of] with the natural elusiveness to be a game breaking playmaker.

Again, my opinion only, but Estime was the "best" WR we had this year from that standpoint. Broyld had a solid year, but lacks some speed / quickness that you usually see in WRs. Also had some drops, but that is probably attributable to last year being his first year as a full time WR. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in that regard--will be interesting to see what he does for an encore.

Cornelius showed some promise the final two games of the regular season--enough to make me want to see more now that he's gotten his feet wet.

I'd put those three AHEAD of West, who I view as a solid role playing steady hand.

That's a solid quartet of receivers with experience returning next year. The question is: will any of the true frosh prove to be so good that they force their way onto the field? Because if so, (1) that would be a good upgrade for the speed / athleticism / talent quotient at the position, and (2) if they beat out any of those four, that would indicate that a frosh is "better" [broad interpretation] than four players who are proven commodities--a very good situation to have.

And again, haven't factored Funderburke into the discussion yet. Does he take a step forward this off-season?

Should be interesting. Bottom line: we are in a much better position at WR heading into next season than we were heading into this season.

 

[Crusty]

You play the guys that give a the best chance to win today. The program isn't in rebuilding mode. You are going to have a veteran OL, TE group, returning QB, three returning TB's with a experience. You are going to start from scratch at WR, you are going to go with a Sr and two Jr's that go 6/3 221, 6/2 2o3, and 6/2 2o1 as your base. Obviously rotate the young guys in, find a guy that can take the top off the defense, but your core group are the experienced guys, your leadership.

Do the younger guys have better 4o times, probably, but that's not the be all and end all and by itself doesn't define "talent".

Our passing game is at the bottom of D-1 - 104th. What leadership is that? Face it, our veteran receiving corp is comprised of guys that can't start for most other teams in the ACC. They just really aren't very good. Our only hope is that Estime and Broyld make major progress and that ACE, Parris and one of the frosh contribute. The more playing time the kids get the better off the program will be. I think they already are better than the guys in front of them and I think that will happen.

I know the Cavalry is coming but they won't arrive this year.

 

[Pyle]

Our passing game is at the bottom of D-1 - 104th. What leadership is that? Face it, our veteran receiving corp is comprised of guys that can't start for most other teams in the ACC.

How many games do you want to win next year? 3? or 4? Because the offensive identity of this team is a power running game. For that you need WRs who can block, not true frosh with spaghetti frames. I understand your want and desire for a better passing game. But that's not who we are right now. 104th in passing. 38th in rushing. I like Hunt very much but don't think he will ever be an elite passer. He's developed as a true dual threat but that means running and passing. We have the TBs in the stable to continue this trend. All season this team looked for an identity and we finally found one by Nov. We are a power running team with a very strong run defense. You run a very big risk by blowing that up putting a bunch of young speedsters on the outside. If it works, we've transitioned from a power running offense to a passing or even balanced offense. However if it doesn't work then you are blowing up what does work for nothing. I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice the one thing that we seem to do well in favor of a gamble. You mention that our guys couldn't start at other schools in the ACC, I'm pretty sure our incoming class of WR wouldn't be starting for most ACC teams either. At least not this year. No point in forcing it, get them in the weight room, get them familiar with the playbook, get them comfortable with the timing of the offense and with the QB. Let the QB get comfortable with them. And you don't have to sacrifice the entire season to get it done. We should stay with the run next year and develop these guys the right way, over time. Starting 2-3 true frosh at WR may pay off next year or the year after because of the game experience but you are going to blow up this year by eliminating any kind of blocking by the guys on the outside. A sub .500 season would be a disaster and I feel that's exactly what you get by sitting West, Broyld, and Estime in favor of some kids who have never even seen our playbook yet, who aren't strong enough to block the majority of ACC DBs, and won't be strong enough to beat press coverage.

 

[timkay99]

How many games do you want to win next year? 3? or 4? Because the offensive identity of this team is a power running game.

I highly, highly doubt that will be the identity of the team next season from the way George McDonald calls games. This offense is going to throw the ball a ton or be a zone option team.

 

[Pyle]

I highly, highly doubt that will be the identity of the team next season from the way George McDonald calls games. This offense is going to throw the ball a ton or be a zone option team.

Maybe I'm the only one but I feel like those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. As mentioned by Crusty, our current crop of WR aren't good enough for us to be some high flying offense. The new guys won't be ready to go up against the likes of Clemson and FSU, and probably not against BC, Pitt, etc. Grob tried this, forced his WCO and zone blocking schemes on guys recruited for different purposes and it was AWFUL and that was against teams like UCONN, Rutgers, and USF. Everyone always blamed the OCs, Pariani, White, etc. But it was Grob who was forcing the philosophy and bringing in the guys to run his type of offense. It terrifies me to think me might try to fit square pegs into round holes again. Hickey is coming back and we are loaded at TB. We need to keep running the ball down defenses throats and if we don't, I'm afraid we won't be seeing our 3rd straight bowl game as we don't have enough pieces in place to change the offense yet.

 

[timkay99]

Maybe I'm the only one but I feel like those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. As mentioned by Crusty, our current crop of WR aren't good enough for us to be some high flying offense. The new guys won't be ready to go up against the likes of Clemson and FSU, and probably not against BC, Pitt, etc. Grob tried this, forced his WCO and zone blocking schemes on guys recruited for different purposes and it was AWFUL and that was against teams like UCONN, Rutgers, and USF. Everyone always blamed the OCs, Pariani, White, etc. But it was Grob who was forcing the philosophy and bringing in the guys to run his type of offense. It terrifies me to think me might try to fit square pegs into round holes again. Hickey is coming back and we are loaded at TB. We need to keep running the ball down defenses throats and if we don't, I'm afraid we won't be seeing our 3rd straight bowl game as we don't have enough pieces in place to change the offense yet.

Not much in the offense has to change. Zone-read changes nothing with what the line currently does.

Most of our plays were run from the shotgun/pistol this year. All that has to change to be McDonald's vision (or what I think McDonald's vision) for the offense is better play at WR if Hunt continues to improve.

The dude wants to throw the ball. And he wants to throw it alot.

 

[JrodCuse]

Some of you are missing the bigger picture here. Sports in general is evolving. Kids are ready earlier due to new nutritional information, new workout routines, new supplements, new coaching awareness / techniques. There is a reason that freshman have won the heisman 2x in a row after having never won it. 18 year old kids aren't the same as when we were all 18. It is a different world we live in now. At least 5 of the kids we are recruiting will make a solid impact on the team this year. Gone are the days of redshirting 75% of your class. I would rather have some of these freshman fighting for two deep positions than players who were here last year but just don't provide that "wow".

 

[Pyle]

Some of you are missing the bigger picture here. Sports in general is evolving. Kids are ready earlier due to new nutritional information, new workout routines, new supplements, new coaching awareness / techniques.

Manziel and Winston both redshirted before winning the Heisman. All of the things you mention, are better at the D1 level than they are at HS. Nutrition, training, coaches, etc are all better at the D1 level. How do you figure that a guy fresh out of HS is going to be better than someone with access to the better stuff for years? HS players may be more advanced coming out of HS, but so are the guys coming out of college. It used to be unheard of for a first year QB to see the playing field in the NFL. If you drafted a QB, he sat for at least 1 year. It wasn't even debated. In the last 5 years, almost every QB drafted in the first round has seen the field his first year.

 

[syr02esq]

He got a chance? Several games?

He played in mop up time against Northwestern, a couple of snaps against Pitt, and was in the rotation against BC.

That's very limited. And we have no idea what the underlying issue was.

Maybe he's a bust, but based on what I've been told, the prior staff had him pencilled in as the #1 receiver and he was excellent on the scout team, so there's a lot of reason to believe that he can play.

If you are so impatient, that's your problem.

Don't be so combative. I think one can argue that if he was the #1 receiver then he would have played more than in "mop up time" in a few games. Why would the staff keep their #1 player on the bench? That doesn't make sense...unless he's not the #1 player.

 

[GoSU96]

Don't be so combative. I think one can argue that if he was the #1 receiver then he would have played more than in "mop up time" in a few games. Why would the staff keep their #1 player on the bench? That doesn't make sense...unless he's not the #1 player.

I said prior staff.

The reason he didn't play is a mystery, at least to me.

 

[RMH44]

I said prior staff.

The reason he didn't play is a mystery, at least to me.

Obviously, there was an issue off the field that kept him in limbo. HCSS said as much in one of his pressers.

He mentioned how proud of QF he was because of the way he handled some unidentified issue.

 

[SUbear]

Think Broyld, West, Flemming, Estime, Lewis, Hale (if he stays), Funderbunk, Cornelius, Avant, Kobena, Ishmael, Williams, Cooper at the WRs.

While Batten, Parris, Moore, Provo, Custis, Enoicy are the TE

Winfield to DB.

Did I miss something when did Enoicy commit?

 

[SUFan44]

Did I miss something when did Enoicy commit?

Take a look at his and Estime's twitter pages. Nothing is official yet but I would be shocked to see him commit anywhere else.