WR - Something has to give.

[retro44]

Some of you are missing the bigger picture here. Sports in general is evolving. Kids are ready earlier due to new nutritional information, new workout routines, new supplements, new coaching awareness / techniques. There is a reason that freshman have won the heisman 2x in a row after having never won it. 18 year old kids aren't the same as when we were all 18. It is a different world we live in now. At least 5 of the kids we are recruiting will make a solid impact on the team this year. Gone are the days of redshirting 75% of your class. I would rather have some of these freshman fighting for two deep positions than players who were here last year but just don't provide that "wow".

should just come out and say they are juicing at younger ages, which they are

 

[SUbear]

Take a look at his and Estime's twitter pages. Nothing is official yet but I would be shocked to see him commit anywhere else.

Okay, sounds like he is a heavy lean, would be a good addition so hope it all breaks our way.

 

[Crusty]

How many games do you want to win next year? 3? or 4? Because the offensive identity of this team is a power running game. For that you need WRs who can block, not true frosh with spaghetti frames. I understand your want and desire for a better passing game. But that's not who we are right now. 104th in passing. 38th in rushing. I like Hunt very much but don't think he will ever be an elite passer. He's developed as a true dual threat but that means running and passing. We have the TBs in the stable to continue this trend. All season this team looked for an identity and we finally found one by Nov. We are a power running team with a very strong run defense. You run a very big risk by blowing that up putting a bunch of young speedsters on the outside. If it works, we've transitioned from a power running offense to a passing or even balanced offense. However if it doesn't work then you are blowing up what does work for nothing. I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice the one thing that we seem to do well in favor of a gamble. You mention that our guys couldn't start at other schools in the ACC, I'm pretty sure our incoming class of WR wouldn't be starting for most ACC teams either. At least not this year. No point in forcing it, get them in the weight room, get them familiar with the playbook, get them comfortable with the timing of the offense and with the QB. Let the QB get comfortable with them. And you don't have to sacrifice the entire season to get it done. We should stay with the run next year and develop these guys the right way, over time. Starting 2-3 true frosh at WR may pay off next year or the year after because of the game experience but you are going to blow up this year by eliminating any kind of blocking by the guys on the outside. A sub .500 season would be a disaster and I feel that's exactly what you get by sitting West, Broyld, and Estime in favor of some kids who have never even seen our playbook yet, who aren't strong enough to block the majority of ACC DBs, and won't be strong enough to beat press coverage.

Here's the deal - identity schmenity. What is identity - an oversimplified overused label for idiot sportscasters. What does it really mean? It simply means that you do one thing more than the other. BTW for the entire season we ran 3 times more per game than we passed 35-32 - hardly an overwhelming "identity". {EDIT: We actually ran 12 times more per game.]

Anyway, our "identity" hasn't done much for us in the last five years. We were 32-31. This year our rushing offense was 37th in the nation. We scored fewer points than our opponents for the entire season. Top 25 teams averaged 37.5 PPG and we averaged 22.7 PPG or 99th!! Our offense identity is that we can't score points.

This year was a cut and paste year for the staff and they did a great job getting the most with what they had at hand. They ran the ball because they had no other choice - not because they preferred to run. When the Drew Allen experiment failed (we actually passed the ball more than ran in the first two games) they went into the win ugly mode - run the ball, run the clock, take care of the ball and play good D. They got us 7 wins and a bowl victory.

I venture to say you won't see that again next year. McDonald wants to throw the ball and score points. We're going to see a fast paced pistol offense.

Let's be clear, I am not advocating sitting Broyld and Estime, quite the opposite. However, West has hit his ceiling and is what he is so I would rather see his PT reduced in favor of frosh who be able to contribute more at the end of the season than West will. I think that is exactly what McDonald will do. He will also want to give PT to a couple of frosh ASAP for recruiting purposes, after all they are selling PT.

We are 113th in the nation in yards per attempt. How good could our WR blocking be? In fact it is really very poor. Kobena and West simply never proved themselves as good blockers.

I do understand your broader point of playing the best players however, there is the also the issue of experienced player that have hit their ceiling that lose PT to younger players with more upside.

In order for a program to move forward hard decisions have to be made and sometime that means leaving players behind. I think that is why Jerome is leaving early (because he doesn't fit the plan) and why Kobena lost PT.

I remain optimistic about next year because we will be able to open up the offense with a few fresh faces playing a role. We'll see.

 

[baggerbob]

The last 3 games FDR-36,FDP-30,RA-136,PA-100,PC-66,NYR-566,NPY-617, looks like we were doing both at the end of the year.

 

[SmilinBob]

The only new receiver I count right now is Cooper. He is in Syracuse along with the returning guys and this group has a lot to prove. I was pleased to see McDonald stop using Clark and Kobena as blockers in the Minny game, that was just a horrible idea to use such small guys and unless they were the targets, no reason at all to have them be the blockers.

If the O-Line can be as strong as I hope, this will give Hunt and the receives a little more time to let the plays develop. Add to that, a solid running game and corners/safeties worried about Hunt taking off and we have a solid base to build off of.

There is potential here but I've been thinking that for too long now. I really don't see any of the current crew as not being replaceable at this stage. I can't wait for the spring to see how they develop and we'll see who has worked their butt off to put themselves on the field. The middle needs to be used more along with dump offs to Gulley/Morris/McFarland and if this group and McDonald can do that, we'll see some success in the passing game along with hopefully be able to stretch the field horizontally.

Don't know enough about Cooper or the redshirts to be able to comment. Heck, for Funderburk or AC either. I saw some nice things from those 2 but still, lots of work to be done before I could ever say that we have too many.

 

[Crusty]

The only new receiver I count right now is Cooper. He is in Syracuse along with the returning guys and this group has a lot to prove. I was pleased to see McDonald stop using Clark and Kobena as blockers in the Minny game, that was just a horrible idea to use such small guys and unless they were the targets, no reason at all to have them be the blockers.

If the O-Line can be as strong as I hope, this will give Hunt and the receives a little more time to let the plays develop. Add to that, a solid running game and corners/safeties worried about Hunt taking off and we have a solid base to build off of.

There is potential here but I've been thinking that for too long now. I really don't see any of the current crew as not being replaceable at this stage. I can't wait for the spring to see how they develop and we'll see who has worked their butt off to put themselves on the field. The middle needs to be used more along with dump offs to Gulley/Morris/McFarland and if this group and McDonald can do that, we'll see some success in the passing game along with hopefully be able to stretch the field horizontally.

Don't know enough about Cooper or the redshirts to be able to comment. Heck, for Funderburk or AC either. I saw some nice things from those 2 but still, lots of work to be done before I could ever say that we have too many.

Since I have no other explanation for the lack of passes over the middle I wonder if McDonald wanted to keep that open for to leave room for Terrel to take off and run. ???

 

[SmilinBob]

Since I have no other explanation for the lack of passes over the middle I wonder if McDonald wanted to keep that open for to leave room for Terrel to take off and run. ???

A quick cross wouldn't really do that though but this is why it is so important to finish your plays offensively and defensively. I see your point if it was a design but the percentage was way too low for me. Granted, it could have been in part a Hunt thing too as he may not have looked there along with the injury problems the offense had at TE plus the youth there as well.

 

[TBCuse11]

Estime is starting next year. Didn't he start in the bowl game?

Without question. Kid needs to be on the field every snap. I personally think West is the guy who needs to lose PT. He just did not impress me one bit.

 

[TBCuse11]

West had 26 receptions for 396 yards and 1 TD. That's two receptions and 30 yards a game. If that isn't the definition of replaceable, I don't know what is. I'm not saying they will pull his scholly and boot him from the team. They obviously won't. I am saying they will find 3 receivers and an Hback that they believe will be more productive than that (We already have two in Broyld and Estime so we are really just talking about 2 WR better than that) and if that is the case, the talent ought to play not the player with the most seniority. I want to win, dammit, and to facilitate that I'd like the most talented players most likely to help the team to get the playing time. Shame on me!

Agree 100%. West is not one of our 3 best receivers. He may not be one of our best 7 or 8 depending how the freshmen look. He was never open (not sure what that previous poster was talking about when he said he was "open alot"). I would watch him every game I was at and he had zero separation on every play.

If he left the team today, we would not skip a beat.

 

[GoSU96]

Without question. Kid needs to be on the field every snap. I personally think West is the guy who needs to lose PT. He just did not impress me one bit.

That must mean he's destined for greatness, just like UCF.

 

[GoSU96]

Agree 100%. West is not one of our 3 best receivers. He may not be one of our best 7 or 8 depending how the freshmen look. He was never open (not sure what that previous poster was talking about when he said he was "open alot"). I would watch him every game I was at and he had zero separation on every play.

If he left the team today, we would not skip a beat.

Sort of like Cooney huh?

 

[Full_Rebar]

Not sure why people want West to leave. He didn't have a good year, but I think he's got the size and ability to be a big part of next year's team.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'd put those three AHEAD of West, who I view as a solid role playing steady hand.

You know, when I boil it all down, that's where I end up too.

I think one thing that is being forgotten in this thread too is that being "replaced" doesn't mean a guy gets dumped on the bench. It can mean that he gets fewer reps, or in some situations where he's previously been used we have another player step in. This staff has shown a willingness to give a lot of guys PT as it is.

 

[GoSU96]

Not sure why people want West to leave. He didn't have a good year, but I think he's got the size and ability to be a big part of next year's team.

The pass game the bed. Went from 29th to 102nd.

IMO that's 50% on the OC, 25% on the QB's, and 25% on the WR's/TE's/RB's.

West, Wales, and Gulley all had their production crater from the year before instead of going up. Much of that was because they were used much less, and not just because of injury.

The design was bad to start, picked the wrong QB, didn't use play action to any major degree, didn't use the TE much at all, to many all or nothing routes with the WR pinned to the sideline.

Mobile QB, no bootlegs or waggles, TE drag disappeared, they ran the TE pop pass off the zone read once that I remember, and it went for a TD against NWestern, and then no more.

 

[TheCusian]

The pass game the bed. Went from 29th to 102nd. IMO that's 50% on the OC, 25% on the QB's, and 25% on the WR's/TE's/RB's. West, Wales, and Gulley all had their production crater from the year before instead of going up. Much of that was because they were used much less, and not just because of injury. The design was bad to start, picked the wrong QB, didn't use play action to any major degree, didn't use the TE much at all, to many all or nothing routes with the WR pinned to the sideline. Mobile QB, no bootlegs or waggles, TE drag disappeared, they ran the TE pop pass off the zone read once that I remember, and it went for a TD against NWestern, and then no more.

That's more like 40% Nassib, 35% Lemon, 10% Sales, 15% Marrone.

 

[Crusty]

The pass game the bed. Went from 29th to 102nd.

IMO that's 50% on the OC, 25% on the QB's, and 25% on the WR's/TE's/RB's.

West, Wales, and Gulley all had their production crater from the year before instead of going up. Much of that was because they were used much less, and not just because of injury.

The design was bad to start, picked the wrong QB, didn't use play action to any major degree, didn't use the TE much at all, to many all or nothing routes with the WR pinned to the sideline.

Mobile QB, no bootlegs or waggles, TE drag disappeared, they ran the TE pop pass off the zone read once that I remember, and it went for a TD against NWestern, and then no more.

Good point - I love that play.

I don't quite have that proportion - I would have said more like 1/3, 1/3. 1/3. I really think when the Drew Allen thing went South, they hunkered down and decided that the talent was either not up to it or too green and they would go 60/40 run/pass and don't give Hunt anything he can't handle. Once that happened it got ugly. Can't repeat that next year or we won't be as fortunate as we were.

Next year we will find out where we really are and what we are really trying to be. Gonna be fun.

 

[PhatOrange]

we're going to likely take a step back defensively so we better score more points.

 

[timkay99]

The design was bad to start, picked the wrong QB,

Just b/c Hunt was a solid QB at the end of the season doesn't mean he was a solid QB at the start of the season.

 

[Crusty]

Just b/c Hunt was a solid QB at the end of the season doesn't mean he was a solid QB at the start of the season.

We were told it was a close call. Turns out that Drew Allen was not ready for prime time. With hindsight it is not hard to envision a much different first two games

 

[timkay99]

We were told it was a close call. Turns out that Drew Allen was not ready for prime time. With hindsight it is not hard to envision a much different first two games

If we had the Hunt that played in the bowl game, sure.

I think people focus too much on what Hunt did against Wagner and Tulane as opposed to what he did the first couple games of ACC play (which compares closer to Penn State and Northwestern).

Was a close call, I agree that was said. But people on this board in ACC play were calling for one of the redshirt frosh to start after Georgia Tech and the bye week!

 

[Crusty]

If we had the Hunt that played in the bowl game, sure.

I think people focus too much on what Hunt did against Wagner and Tulane as opposed to what he did the first couple games of ACC play (which compares closer to Penn State and Northwestern).

Was a close call, I agree that was said. But people on this board in ACC play were calling for one of the redshirt frosh to start after Georgia Tech and the bye week!

LOL yeah, I remember that. For me I wish Hunt has started from the beginning because those two games would have gotten him that much closer to where he needs to be and certainly better by the end of the season.

 

[SUFan44]

we're going to likely take a step back defensively so we better score more points.

Why?

 

[retro44]

Why?

that was my answer....players will come in and step up, happens all the time. A GREAT UNKNOWN.

I'm not worried at this point

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

So you are going to make your decision based on last years numbers.

Then you better bench the whole lot.

West led the team in yds per game, and yds per catch for anyone who caught more than three passes (Funderburk is the technical leader in yds per catch at 16.7, West 15.3). Broyld and Estime were under 10 yds per catch. West was 2nd in total yds in 11 games. Broyld had 55 more yds and two more games to do it.

He caught two less passes than Estime and had 140 more yds for the season.

If you want to look at the receivers numbers you have to take into account that 20 different guys received a pass last year. The split up up 236 receptions. Last year 12 guys split up 296.

10 guys lined up at WR last year and caught a pass this year, last year 5 WR's did, and those 5 split up 23 more receptions.

If you want to get worked up about the production of any single player, maybe you should look at the OC.

Weren't most of those yards against an overmatched D-IAA squad? Outside of that game, West struggled mightily beating any type of man coverage.

West may start every game, but I highly doubt he plays the majority of the snaps.

 

[Opus]

I like the potential of this corp of WR's. Now I just have to pray Hunt continues his progression (OK I'm not sold yet but the bowl game does make me feel a little better)