2023 New Balance All-America Games: July 27-30

[Powellfan]

 

[Zack80]

Everyone should lay off of Anish, Quint, and Carc after this

Seems unlikely. They're still fairly bad.

 

[Zack80]

Fyock turning the game into a joke. I know it's an all-star game, but after 5 possessions where the defense gave you an open shot, you gotta go back to your cage.

Agreed. He should have gone back after the first one. I imagine Fyock's coach was allowing him to stay down there.
We had all these guys out there who made the team due to their offensive prowess,, and Fyock's taking a bunch of shots???

 

[Zack80]

Here was my take on the standouts (mostly offensive, given this is an all star game):

Attack:

Owen Duffy (St. A's/UNC): Best player in the class IMO. Lightning quick, with great stick skills and a decent outside shot. Didn't play his best game and still was the leading points scorer with 3 Gs and 2 As. Should start day one from X for Carolina IMO.

McCabe Millon (McDonogh/UVA): Didn't see as much of the ball as usual, but still was productive and a threat whenever he touched the ball. Had a great BTB goal. A player I have felt was highly overrated over the years, propped up by his last name. But IMO he has made strides (and grown a bit physically), and is mostly worthy of the hype now. Still think Duffy is the better player (and almost a year younger).

Kyle Lehman (Wissahickon/PSU): Leading goal scorer on the night with 4. Accurate shooter who bursts into scoring areas. More of a lefty wing attacker, and someone I could see coming out of the box offensively if there's a log jam at attack.

Middies:

Tomas Delgado (Brunswick/Duke): All over the field as a two way middie. Has a good shot with both hands and is physical between the lines. Could see him playing offense or SSDM for Duke.

Benn Johnston (AOF/Duke): Everything above also applies to Johnston. Except Johnston is physically more imposing; he looks like a guy who already has been in a D1 weight room. Feels like he is maybe slightly less developed offensively than Delgado, as he really only shot the ball low and away.

Thomas Gravino (Victor/Maryland): Silky smooth and runs the field well. Had three goals and all were scored in different ways: one was on the run in transition, another was an ankle breaker from X, and the third was a nice inside finish after a few smooth fakes.

Jackson Greene (St. A's/Harvard): One of the revelations of the night. Had a play in the middle of the game where he ran up field with the ball and he looked twice as fast as everyone else in the frame. Scored with both hands and has a great split dodge into a shooting motion down the alleys.

LSM/D:

Jake Melchionni (Delbarton/Nova): Late addition to the game and was a worthy MVP on the night 2 Gs, 1 A, 7 GBs, and 3 CTs is a hell of a box score. It appears he's a natural righty, but scored both goals after switching the stick into his left hand.

Goalie:
Matt Tully (N&G/Cornell): This is a good goalie group, but Tully stood above the rest. Active and athletic, with quick hands. Went from save to outlets very quickly.

I don't think Gravino or Greene were scripted to make contributions.

It will be interesting to see how Gravino fits in next Spring with the Terps. The Terps return their first 2 lines of midfield, except for Kyle Long, and Malever returning could shift an attackman out to the midfield. Still, Gravino's quickness and ability to carry the ball, make him look like the best replacement for Kyle Long that the Terps have. As he showed last night, Gravino is also really good in transition, so maybe the Terps will fit him in during clearing situations and on the wings on face-offs.

I think I'd start Gravino in Long's spot and see if I could develop his game by the end of the season when it counts. Tillman tends to be more conservative and go with his veterans. Although, Tillman did start Erksa on attack beginning with the 3rd game of the season last year - so one never knows for sure.

Lehman (Wissahickon, Freedom) scores four goals for South in 22-16 loss in Boys' Senior All-America Game - PhillyLacrosse.com

Phillylacrosse.com, Posted 7/30/23 Kyle Lehman (Wissahickon, Freedom/Penn State signee) says that playing with and against the top seniors in the country

phillylacrosse.com

(No, I have not become a PSU fan, but there is a boxscore at the bottom of the article.)

 

[Powellfan]

Here was my take on the standouts (mostly offensive, given this is an all star game):

Attack:

Owen Duffy (St. A's/UNC): Best player in the class IMO. Lightning quick, with great stick skills and a decent outside shot. Didn't play his best game and still was the leading points scorer with 3 Gs and 2 As. Should start day one from X for Carolina IMO.

McCabe Millon (McDonogh/UVA): Didn't see as much of the ball as usual, but still was productive and a threat whenever he touched the ball. Had a great BTB goal. A player I have felt was highly overrated over the years, propped up by his last name. But IMO he has made strides (and grown a bit physically), and is mostly worthy of the hype now. Still think Duffy is the better player (and almost a year younger).

Kyle Lehman (Wissahickon/PSU): Leading goal scorer on the night with 4. Accurate shooter who bursts into scoring areas. More of a lefty wing attacker, and someone I could see coming out of the box offensively if there's a log jam at attack.

Middies:

Tomas Delgado (Brunswick/Duke): All over the field as a two way middie. Has a good shot with both hands and is physical between the lines. Could see him playing offense or SSDM for Duke.

Benn Johnston (AOF/Duke): Everything above also applies to Johnston. Except Johnston is physically more imposing; he looks like a guy who already has been in a D1 weight room. Feels like he is maybe slightly less developed offensively than Delgado, as he really only shot the ball low and away.

Thomas Gravino (Victor/Maryland): Silky smooth and runs the field well. Had three goals and all were scored in different ways: one was on the run in transition, another was an ankle breaker from X, and the third was a nice inside finish after a few smooth fakes.

Jackson Greene (St. A's/Harvard): One of the revelations of the night. Had a play in the middle of the game where he ran up field with the ball and he looked twice as fast as everyone else in the frame. Scored with both hands and has a great split dodge into a shooting motion down the alleys.

LSM/D:

Jake Melchionni (Delbarton/Nova): Late addition to the game and was a worthy MVP on the night 2 Gs, 1 A, 7 GBs, and 3 CTs is a hell of a box score. It appears he's a natural righty, but scored both goals after switching the stick into his left hand.

Goalie:
Matt Tully (N&G/Cornell): This is a good goalie group, but Tully stood above the rest. Active and athletic, with quick hands. Went from save to outlets very quickly.

Cuse guys:

Trey Deere: I've spoken a few times on this board of my opinion that Deere's athletic limitations mean that he is not a 5 star/top 20 caliber prospect in my eyes. In some respects, I still believe that; he's not a dodger at the D1 level, and indeed even last night in an all-star game, the South team started short sticking him pretty quickly. Having said that, I was definitely impressed with how he played, and felt that he was able to showcase more athleticism in other aspects of the position. His finishing is unquestioned, so there is always a valuable role for him in any offense (especially one that moves the ball like Cuse's). But what stood out was his aggressiveness and physicality on the ride. He caused a number of turnovers and was a pest to the South's poles throughout.

Jake Spallina: Another guy who I've requested tempered expectations on. If his last name was Spallina he would not be in this game; I see him as more of a 3 star recruit. A lot is made of his versatility, but as the level of competition rises, versatility becomes less important. In D1, with large rosters and great talent everywhere, it's about having elite traits. Spallina is a good high school face-off man, but not on the level of the guys who are recruited as college FOGOs (as demonstrated last night, where he went 3-14 at the X); if Cuse is relying on him in that capacity at any point, things are obviously not great in that position. As an offensive middie, he has solid stick skills, but he didn't really create any shooting opportunities. He had a good feed across the field to an open attack man on the back side, but other than that was mostly a glue guy. As a two-way middie, he looked solid but lacked the dynamism and athleticism in the middle of the field of guys like Delgado and Johnston.

Thanks for the insight, even though it was a little harsh on the Cuse boys. In your opinion, do you think if Jake Spallina focused on one position at the next level he could excel at it? The worry is that he could fall into a “master of none” silo if he tries to cover too much ground in college. Sounds like this might be the case, according to you.

I feel like you might be a little harsh on his faceoff skills given he went against two of the best at that position. I wasn’t expecting him to come in and be the main fogo for SU, just someone who could be a change of pace. Also that position is notorious for being incredibly hard to predict. I wonder if he focused all his time there he might be able to excel at it. Perhaps not.

I guess I’ve seen him as an SSDM in college, maybe one who could be a threat in transition from time to time. He got beat a few times in the All American game but so did most everyone.

In regards to Deere, I guess not every attackmen needs to fit the super athletic, dodge heavy type. He stood out for me with his super soft hands and he movement. Also in an all star game, finishers don’t tend to make a huge impact since most of their teammates aren’t looking to pass. Curious to see how he fits in with the Orange offense. Does he do really well since he’d be surrounded by a ton of great passers? Or will not having a lot of elite dodgers surrounding him, hurt his impact? He might be someone who comes in and out of the lineup depending on who the Orange are playing.

One other player who stuck out for me last night was Hunter Chauvette going to Hopkins. He had two goals. He can absolutely shoot the heck out of the ball. Incredible velocity and range. Not the biggest kid but if he gets his hands free from 10 yards watch out.

 

[relaxer]

Thanks for the insight, even though it was a little harsh on the Cuse boys. In your opinion, do you think if Jake Spallina focused on one position at the next level he could excel at it? The worry is that he could fall into a “master of none” silo if he tries to cover too much ground in college. Sounds like this might be the case, according to you.

I feel like you might be a little harsh on his faceoff skills given he went against two of the best at that position. I wasn’t expecting him to come in and be the main fogo for SU, just someone who could be a change of pace. Also that position is notorious for being incredibly hard to predict. I wonder if he focused all his time there he might be able to excel at it. Perhaps not.

I guess I’ve seen him as an SSDM in college, maybe one who could be a threat in transition from time to time. He got beat a few times in the All American game but so did most everyone.

In regards to Deere, I guess not every attackmen needs to fit the super athletic, dodge heavy type. He stood out for me with his super soft hands and he movement. Also in an all star game, finishers don’t tend to make a huge impact since most of their teammates aren’t looking to pass. Curious to see how he fits in with the Orange offense. Does he do really well since he’d be surrounded by a ton of great passers? Or will not having a lot of elite dodgers surrounding him, hurt his impact? He might be someone who comes in and out of the lineup depending on who the Orange are playing.

One other player who stuck out for me last night was Hunter Chauvette going to Hopkins. He had two goals. He can absolutely shoot the heck out of the ball. Incredible velocity and range. Not the biggest kid but if he gets his hands free from 10 yards watch out.

In regards to Deere, I feel like I came away with a very positive impression of him. I think he's a great attack man and will have a very good career at Syracuse. Just trying to give context based on my prior assessments of him. I've just seen a lot of people huffing about IL/NLF and others not giving him a fifth star when frankly I think it's rare for a finisher attack man to warrant top 10 recruit consideration. I don't see first team AA potential the way I do for the guys who can create their own shot (Duffy/Millon/Lehman/Kabiri). Similar deal with Chauvette; another guy who is a great piece in a great offense that any team would be happy to have, but he's not going to be THE guy. Luckily Cuse has a Spallina to play Batman to the proverbial Robin.

As for Spallina, I just don't see his skillset translating into anything more than a role player at the next level. Yeah he's going up against elite competition in the AA game, but unlike other positions, FOGO is one where elite guys are going to pop up who were not on the all star game radar. Spallina isn't just gonna have to go up against the Wellers and Wambachs of the world; most top tier teams are going to have a guy at that level or better. Nonetheless my point is not that Spallina should be evaluated as a FOGO (that's not what he was recruited for). But that skill has been seen as additive to his profile, whereas I think it's pretty much irrelevant since I don't think he's ever going to be a guy who goes above 50% even as a change of pace. Likewise, he is good offensively and good defensively, but he's not GREAT at either; he doesn't have a skill that makes you think you can't keep him off the field. I think there's a role for him in the defensive midfield rotation, but cynically I don't think he's an ACC/B1G/Ivy recruit if his last name isn't Spallina. Certainly not a 4 star and a NB All American.

 

[Abclaxfan]

Did anyone catch the mention that PSU has 500k to distribute from their NIL pool? Seemed like a lot

 

[PhatOrange]

So is Spallina a SSDM at the high major level?

**Put me in the camp that loves Anish, Quint, and Carc. Best lax announcers in the game.

 

[DoctahLexus]

So is Spallina a SSDM at the high major level?

**Put me in the camp that loves Anish, Quint, and Carc. Best lax announcers in the game.

SSDM is possible, but I would not rule him out on offense entirely. I saw a good chunk of the game yesterday and thought he did a solid job matching feet when on defense. Think this years game in particular felt very casual, so it is really not a great time to be judging anyone. Spallina was playing a lot of two way and played quite a lot in general as well, so he was probably not showing 110% of his motor like if he came in for a single ssdm or middie shift in a Cuse game.

Like with Joey his lack of height is noticeable. That may be harder to overcome on the defensive end than on offense at the D1 level. I still think he could have a shot at offense down the line. His first step/athleticism is legit and I have seen some good shooting and passing in the one or two mount sinai games I watched. He has the Spallina IQ. Think he certainly deserved to be at the game and to say he was only there for his last name is silly. Special treatment for him but none for Brett? He had a great senior season and even if relaxer thinks his versatility will not translate, that versatility is what got him in the game rather than his last name.

 

[Powellfan]

 

[DMVCuseLax]

Did anyone catch the mention that PSU has 500k to distribute from their NIL pool? Seemed like a lot

PSU is also giving their athletes the 5900 allowed from the Alston case. Several others in the BIG are also giving the money.

 

[Zack80]

In regards to Deere, I feel like I came away with a very positive impression of him. I think he's a great attack man and will have a very good career at Syracuse. Just trying to give context based on my prior assessments of him. I've just seen a lot of people huffing about IL/NLF and others not giving him a fifth star when frankly I think it's rare for a finisher attack man to warrant top 10 recruit consideration. I don't see first team AA potential the way I do for the guys who can create their own shot (Duffy/Millon/Lehman/Kabiri). Similar deal with Chauvette; another guy who is a great piece in a great offense that any team would be happy to have, but he's not going to be THE guy. Luckily Cuse has a Spallina to play Batman to the proverbial Robin.

As for Spallina, I just don't see his skillset translating into anything more than a role player at the next level. Yeah he's going up against elite competition in the AA game, but unlike other positions, FOGO is one where elite guys are going to pop up who were not on the all star game radar. Spallina isn't just gonna have to go up against the Wellers and Wambachs of the world; most top tier teams are going to have a guy at that level or better. Nonetheless my point is not that Spallina should be evaluated as a FOGO (that's not what he was recruited for). But that skill has been seen as additive to his profile, whereas I think it's pretty much irrelevant since I don't think he's ever going to be a guy who goes above 50% even as a change of pace. Likewise, he is good offensively and good defensively, but he's not GREAT at either; he doesn't have a skill that makes you think you can't keep him off the field. I think there's a role for him in the defensive midfield rotation, but cynically I don't think he's an ACC/B1G/Ivy recruit if his last name isn't Spallina. Certainly not a 4 star and a NB All American.

Chauvette did show a really wicked shot there in the UA game. Seems like a waste his going to Hopkins.

You could be somewhat right about Deere, but he was only at #18. I guess UVa's Payton Cormier was a #26 ranked recruit - with sort of a similar sort of game - being an excellent finisher. #18 vs #26 doesn't seem like that wide a gulf, given the variance of recruit rankings.

I don't know that I fully agree with your assessment that a five star attackman has to be a great dodging attackman. While Logan Wisnauskas was not a top 10 recruit, he did win the Tewaaraton award the year before last and was not of that mold. It's fair to say that the Terps' top 10 attack recruit for 2024, Spencer Ford, is not a terrific dodger, but besides being a really good finisher and shooter, Ford is an excellent feeder also.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Chauvette did show a really wicked shot there in the UA game. Seems like a waste his going to Hopkins.

You could be somewhat right about Deere, but he was only at #18. I guess UVa's Payton Cormier was a #26 ranked recruit - with sort of a similar sort of game - being an excellent finisher. #18 vs #26 doesn't seem like that wide a gulf, given the variance of recruit rankings.

I don't know that I fully agree with your assessment that a five star attackman has to be a great dodging attackman. While Logan Wisnauskas was not a top 10 recruit, he did win the Tewaaraton award the year before last and was not of that mold. It's fair to say that the Terps' top 10 attack recruit for 2024, Spencer Ford, is not a terrific dodger, but besides being a really good finisher and shooter, Ford is an excellent feeder also.

Dyson Williams was the number 3 recruit in the class of 2019. Cormier does have a good amount of dodging in his game, but he uses his size a lot more than his speed which is more average. Wisnauskas is another good example of a guy who did it without being a massive ankle breaker dodging threat. Believe his recruit ranking was pretty similar to Deere's.

 

[nyclax]

Chauvette did show a really wicked shot there in the UA game. Seems like a waste his going to Hopkins.

you sound jealous

i for one believe deere's athleticism is underrated. he moves a tad awkwardly and his pure speed isnt elite which together create the perception that hes not very athletic but hes stronger than he looks and that tenacity goes a long way. you cant teach his hands, awareness or creativity. i wouldnt be surprised if he surpasses someone like leo on the depth chart by the end of the season. guys like that who have a nose for the goal can find ways to get it done. it's a sixth sense you cant teach

 

[Powellfan]

Most of this was regarding Odierna's hire (seeing that Ty broke the story), but he did offer the following names of players who he has been impressed with - McCartney, Hottle, Scott and Ippoliti. Said Hottle had a breakout spring at Calvert Hall, though might take some time to see the field. Seemed he was high on Scott but said it would have been hard for him to break into the lineup, much like Jeremey has pointed out. Ty seems high on Odierna's skills as a recruiter.

Also talked about Deere and Spallina - said he thought it would be difficult for Deere to stay off the field given his skill set. Also agreed with most of us on here that Spallina would be a d-middie in his career, said they did not think he would take as many face-offs as he did on Saturday night.

 

[Faegan]

Here was my take on the standouts (mostly offensive, given this is an all star game):

Attack:

Owen Duffy (St. A's/UNC): Best player in the class IMO. Lightning quick, with great stick skills and a decent outside shot. Didn't play his best game and still was the leading points scorer with 3 Gs and 2 As. Should start day one from X for Carolina IMO.

McCabe Millon (McDonogh/UVA): Didn't see as much of the ball as usual, but still was productive and a threat whenever he touched the ball. Had a great BTB goal. A player I have felt was highly overrated over the years, propped up by his last name. But IMO he has made strides (and grown a bit physically), and is mostly worthy of the hype now. Still think Duffy is the better player (and almost a year younger).

Kyle Lehman (Wissahickon/PSU): Leading goal scorer on the night with 4. Accurate shooter who bursts into scoring areas. More of a lefty wing attacker, and someone I could see coming out of the box offensively if there's a log jam at attack.

Middies:

Tomas Delgado (Brunswick/Duke): All over the field as a two way middie. Has a good shot with both hands and is physical between the lines. Could see him playing offense or SSDM for Duke.

Benn Johnston (AOF/Duke): Everything above also applies to Johnston. Except Johnston is physically more imposing; he looks like a guy who already has been in a D1 weight room. Feels like he is maybe slightly less developed offensively than Delgado, as he really only shot the ball low and away.

Thomas Gravino (Victor/Maryland): Silky smooth and runs the field well. Had three goals and all were scored in different ways: one was on the run in transition, another was an ankle breaker from X, and the third was a nice inside finish after a few smooth fakes.

Jackson Greene (St. A's/Harvard): One of the revelations of the night. Had a play in the middle of the game where he ran up field with the ball and he looked twice as fast as everyone else in the frame. Scored with both hands and has a great split dodge into a shooting motion down the alleys.

LSM/D:

Jake Melchionni (Delbarton/Nova): Late addition to the game and was a worthy MVP on the night 2 Gs, 1 A, 7 GBs, and 3 CTs is a hell of a box score. It appears he's a natural righty, but scored both goals after switching the stick into his left hand.

Goalie:
Matt Tully (N&G/Cornell): This is a good goalie group, but Tully stood above the rest. Active and athletic, with quick hands. Went from save to outlets very quickly.

Cuse guys:

Trey Deere: I've spoken a few times on this board of my opinion that Deere's athletic limitations mean that he is not a 5 star/top 20 caliber prospect in my eyes. In some respects, I still believe that; he's not a dodger at the D1 level, and indeed even last night in an all-star game, the South team started short sticking him pretty quickly. Having said that, I was definitely impressed with how he played, and felt that he was able to showcase more athleticism in other aspects of the position. His finishing is unquestioned, so there is always a valuable role for him in any offense (especially one that moves the ball like Cuse's). But what stood out was his aggressiveness and physicality on the ride. He caused a number of turnovers and was a pest to the South's poles throughout.

Jake Spallina: Another guy who I've requested tempered expectations on. If his last name was Spallina he would not be in this game; I see him as more of a 3 star recruit. A lot is made of his versatility, but as the level of competition rises, versatility becomes less important. In D1, with large rosters and great talent everywhere, it's about having elite traits. Spallina is a good high school face-off man, but not on the level of the guys who are recruited as college FOGOs (as demonstrated last night, where he went 3-14 at the X); if Cuse is relying on him in that capacity at any point, things are obviously not great in that position. As an offensive middie, he has solid stick skills, but he didn't really create any shooting opportunities. He had a good feed across the field to an open attack man on the back side, but other than that was mostly a glue guy. As a two-way middie, he looked solid but lacked the dynamism and athleticism in the middle of the field of guys like Delgado and Johnston.

Just back from a wedding weekend and was not able to watch the game.

I coached Jake Melchionni in youth - he is a natural righty and switched to LSM in (I think 7th grade). His Dad - Keith - was an All American at Duke. (I forget what year he graduated but 99% he played a year or two when the Gaits were still here, but I don't think SU played against Duke in those years?) Jake immediately had a laser for a shot and his lax IQ has always been great. Always in the right spot on the field and is fantastic at frustrating kids in the middle of the field. Very aggressive.

The one game I missed coaching (because my daughter was in a play) in 8th grade, our team got into the only brawl we ever had when I was with the 2023s. The opposing team had a coach whose son was WAY bigger than everyone else and had been rolling every team they played because of it. I never got a straight story from anyone who was there, because I was the president and had to deal with the fallout of the brawl, but within the first quarter Jake was stripping the ball from the son and burying shots from 25 yards out. This drove not only the son but the coach (his dad) apesh!t. The coach left the sideline after the last goal and all hell broke loose. End of game. Two weeks of headaches for me.

 

[relaxer]

Chauvette did show a really wicked shot there in the UA game. Seems like a waste his going to Hopkins.

You could be somewhat right about Deere, but he was only at #18. I guess UVa's Payton Cormier was a #26 ranked recruit - with sort of a similar sort of game - being an excellent finisher. #18 vs #26 doesn't seem like that wide a gulf, given the variance of recruit rankings.

I don't know that I fully agree with your assessment that a five star attackman has to be a great dodging attackman. While Logan Wisnauskas was not a top 10 recruit, he did win the Tewaaraton award the year before last and was not of that mold. It's fair to say that the Terps' top 10 attack recruit for 2024, Spencer Ford, is not a terrific dodger, but besides being a really good finisher and shooter, Ford is an excellent feeder also.

Wisnauskas wasn’t an ankle breaker, and his best attributes were his shooting and passing abilities, but you still would never dare put a short stick on him. Ditto for Cormier (although I do think if things break right, Deere could potentially still have a Cormier type impact).

Funny you bring up Ford because I have the same concerns with him (moreso than I do with Deere). Highly skilled and extremely good lax IQ, but I wonder about his upside against better athletes. I don’t think he’ll be a bust by any means but there’s potential for him to be a rich man’s Maltz, which is good but not what you’d hope for out of a top 5-10 recruit.

Just to reiterate again; I think Deere and Chauvette are great players (with some of the most aesthetically pleasing games you’ll see), my point is just that they are complimentary pieces. They will make a very good offense elite, but can’t carry a mediocre one (which is fine; you don’t need or want all of your attackmen to be initiators even if that is the most important skill in a vacuum).

You don’t have to be a great dodger to be a great attackman, but it certainly limits the upside. A guy like Moynihan may be less of a sure thing, but I think he’s more likely to contend for a Tewaarton than a Deere or a Chauvette. At minimum, you should be able to punish short stick matchups. If other teams can short you, that has trickle down effects on the offense and I think that the highest tier of attackmen (by that I mean 5 star, top 20 types) that garner the most scholarship money and recruiting attention should have that ability.

 

[relaxer]

SSDM is possible, but I would not rule him out on offense entirely. I saw a good chunk of the game yesterday and thought he did a solid job matching feet when on defense. Think this years game in particular felt very casual, so it is really not a great time to be judging anyone. Spallina was playing a lot of two way and played quite a lot in general as well, so he was probably not showing 110% of his motor like if he came in for a single ssdm or middie shift in a Cuse game.

Like with Joey his lack of height is noticeable. That may be harder to overcome on the defensive end than on offense at the D1 level. I still think he could have a shot at offense down the line. His first step/athleticism is legit and I have seen some good shooting and passing in the one or two mount sinai games I watched. He has the Spallina IQ. Think he certainly deserved to be at the game and to say he was only there for his last name is silly. Special treatment for him but none for Brett? He had a great senior season and even if relaxer thinks his versatility will not translate, that versatility is what got him in the game rather than his last name.

Fair enough, but I think versatility is overrated. I’m more bullish on McCarthy, Hottle, and Kellogg, who have aspects of their game that you can clearly see translating into a strength for Cuse at the next level.

 

[sholokov2]

SSDM is possible, but I would not rule him out on offense entirely. I saw a good chunk of the game yesterday and thought he did a solid job matching feet when on defense. Think this years game in particular felt very casual, so it is really not a great time to be judging anyone. Spallina was playing a lot of two way and played quite a lot in general as well, so he was probably not showing 110% of his motor like if he came in for a single ssdm or middie shift in a Cuse game.

Like with Joey his lack of height is noticeable. That may be harder to overcome on the defensive end than on offense at the D1 level. I still think he could have a shot at offense down the line. His first step/athleticism is legit and I have seen some good shooting and passing in the one or two mount sinai games I watched. He has the Spallina IQ. Think he certainly deserved to be at the game and to say he was only there for his last name is silly. Special treatment for him but none for Brett? He had a great senior season and even if relaxer thinks his versatility will not translate, that versatility is what got him in the game rather than his last name.

I think it's a little early to evaluate Spallina particularly based on a single game where a lot of shots were taken early on in the offensive end. For many years, I have watched these all star games where the hot shots score a lot more than they will in a D1 college game, where some very highly rated dmen have mailed it in or looked like D5 recruits instead of 5 star can't miss players. Sinai is a small school. The longer the game the more prominently Spallina showed. He was all over the field against the top hs teams. His value lay in steady impactful plays when he turned the ball over to his brother after racing the length of the field. His motor and fiercely aggressive play most impressed me. Let's give him a week or two before we decide to relegate him to the play room.

 

[Zack80]

Wisnauskas wasn’t an ankle breaker, and his best attributes were his shooting and passing abilities, but you still would never dare put a short stick on him. Ditto for Cormier (although I do think if things break right, Deere could potentially still have a Cormier type impact).

Funny you bring up Ford because I have the same concerns with him (moreso than I do with Deere). Highly skilled and extremely good lax IQ, but I wonder about his upside against better athletes. I don’t think he’ll be a bust by any means but there’s potential for him to be a rich man’s Maltz, which is good but not what you’d hope for out of a top 5-10 recruit.

Just to reiterate again; I think Deere and Chauvette are great players (with some of the most aesthetically pleasing games you’ll see), my point is just that they are complimentary pieces. They will make a very good offense elite, but can’t carry a mediocre one (which is fine; you don’t need or want all of your attackmen to be initiators even if that is the most important skill in a vacuum).

You don’t have to be a great dodger to be a great attackman, but it certainly limits the upside. A guy like Moynihan may be less of a sure thing, but I think he’s more likely to contend for a Tewaarton than a Deere or a Chauvette. At minimum, you should be able to punish short stick matchups. If other teams can short you, that has trickle down effects on the offense and I think that the highest tier of attackmen (by that I mean 5 star, top 20 types) that garner the most scholarship money and recruiting attention should have that ability.

Do you really think you will want to try to cover Spencer Ford with a short-stick?

 

[relaxer]

Do you really think you will want to try to cover Spencer Ford with a short-stick?

It remains to be seen. I have my suspicions that he would struggle to beat some of the SSDMs that the Terps were rolling out on their title winning team. Granted, guys like Pugliese don't grow on trees, and a lot will change once these guys get into a college weight room, but I don't think Ford against a great SSDM is a matchup that would instantly put the offense on red alert that they've got a mismatch the way Duffy/Millon/Duenkel drawing a short stick would.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

It remains to be seen. I have my suspicions that he would struggle to beat some of the SSDMs that the Terps were rolling out on their title winning team. Granted, guys like Pugliese don't grow on trees, and a lot will change once these guys get into a college weight room, but I don't think Ford against a great SSDM is a matchup that would instantly put the offense on red alert that they've got a mismatch the way Duffy/Millon/Duenkel drawing a short stick would.

I think you are overvaluing the jitterbug/ankle breaker type of attack man. While I would certainly want any of those kids you mention above, it seems that what makes the modern attack man prolific is the ability to get to a spot, get hands free, and finish. There have been plenty of guys out there recently that show you don't need to be "finalizing" your defender every game to be effective.

 

[Zack80]

It remains to be seen. I have my suspicions that he would struggle to beat some of the SSDMs that the Terps were rolling out on their title winning team. Granted, guys like Pugliese don't grow on trees, and a lot will change once these guys get into a college weight room, but I don't think Ford against a great SSDM is a matchup that would instantly put the offense on red alert that they've got a mismatch the way Duffy/Millon/Duenkel drawing a short stick would.

I am more interested in a discussion of covering Ford with an ssdm as compared to covering Wisnauskas with an ssdm. Wisnauskas has, as we have mentioned, won a Tewaaraton award. Ford and Wisnauskas are both listed at 6'3". Ford is lanky right now, but as you hint at, Ford will probably fill out as he matures.

A lot of the attackmen winning the Tewaaraton recently have been fairly tall. O'Neill 6'2", Wisnauskas 6'3", Bernhardt 6'1", Pat Spencer 6'3", Ben Reaves 6'2". I guess when you get back to Rambo in 2017, you get 5'10" - of course, Rambo weighed 210. Dylan Molloy 6'0", 220.

 

[relaxer]

I think you are overvaluing the jitterbug/ankle breaker type of attack man. While I would certainly want any of those kids you mention above, it seems that what makes the modern attack man prolific is the ability to get to a spot, get hands free, and finish. There have been plenty of guys out there recently that show you don't need to be "finalizing" your defender every game to be effective.

I think jitterbugs are certainly a very reliable dodging type to project to the next level, but I'm not ruling out other kinds of effective dodgers: I just don't think Ford is a particular high level athlete or dodger relative to his recruiting ranking. Here are the five stars from the past several recruiting cycles that would not fall under either the pure finisher or the jitterbug archetype:

2020: O'Neill, Kirst, Hiltz, Grimes, McDermott, Haley -- O'Neill and Kirst are first team AAs. Hiltz is a unique player that can be effective as neither a dodger or a finisher, but the thing that has kept him from elite status is a relative lack of dodging success. Grimes has has been just ok (in part because of injuries, in part because of so-so foot speed). McDermott has been injured too much to get a consistent run of play. Haley has been reduced to a part-time starter despite his amazing feeding ability because he can't even draw a slide when dodging a short stick.

2021: Schutz, Egan, Spanos -- Schutz is a quality middie (but not AA caliber yet). Spanos also playing middie where he consistently draws doubles but needs to improve his shooting (both abuse shorties whenever they draw one). Egan has been injured too much to get a consistent run of play

2022: Spallina, Pietriemala, Matan, Lazzaro -- Spallina has been as advertised. Pietro injured. Matan had a decent but not monster debut. Lazzaro didn't see any time.

2023: Kabiri, Lehman, Wade, Burns -- TBD (Burns is the one I have most questions about)

2024: Ford, Pokorny, Anderson, Gardiner, Browne -- TBD (Ford is the one I have most questions about)

So there are definitely high level dodging attack recruits that use more than just foot speed to get to the rack, and the hit rate has been decent factoring in injuries. But I would bet the hit rate of the jitterbugs in these classes has been higher though, as it seems that the ones who haven't found as much success have struggled to beat D1 defenders consistently without an elite first step.

 

[relaxer]

I am more interested in a discussion of covering Ford with an ssdm as compared to covering Wisnauskas with an ssdm. Wisnauskas has, as we have mentioned, won a Tewaaraton award. Ford and Wisnauskas are both listed at 6'3". Ford is lanky right now, but as you hint at, Ford will probably fill out as he matures.

A lot of the attackmen winning the Tewaaraton recently have been fairly tall. O'Neill 6'2", Wisnauskas 6'3", Bernhardt 6'1", Pat Spencer 6'3", Ben Reaves 6'2". I guess when you get back to Rambo in 2017, you get 5'10" - of course, Rambo weighed 210. Dylan Molloy 6'0", 220.

Ford definitely has the length. Does he have the frame/physicality? Wisnauskas always looked broad shouldered even in high school, and was a guy who you couldn't really push off his line (similar to Cormier, albeit in a different way. I supposed you could say that about Deere as well maybe. I'm not convinced Ford doesn't have what it takes, but I do have some questions about his ability to outmuscle D1 athletes.

To complete my analysis started above, here are the 5-star jitterbugs from the last few cycles:

2020: Malever, King, Boehm -- all highly productive from day one (I suppose you could argue for/against Malever being a jitterbug). King and Boehm were their teams top dodgers immediately. Malever was a productive middie on those insane Terps offenses, and was going to be the QB this year before injury.

2021: McAdorey, Johnson, Kavanagh -- all highly productive from day one, and have had at least 60 points in one or both underclassman seasons.

2022: Sunderland, Minicus -- Sunderland was decent but not spectacular, although he was stuck in that UVA talent logjam. Minicus was Loyola's best player immediately.

2023: Duffy, Millon, Behrman -- TBD (Behrman the one to monitor)

2024: Duenkel, Colsey, Kershis (Colsey the one to monitor due to competition)

Every attacker in the 2020 and 2021 classes is a 60+ point attack man except Malever (injured; 48 points as a middie) and King (56 points in only 12 games. Minicus is on that trajectory for next year. Sunderland is the only question mark, largely due to the amount of talent UVA has amassed to compete for time.