2023 New Balance All-America Games: July 27-30

[DoctahLexus]

We scored a boatload of goals with clean quick passing, well timed off ball movement, pick plays/two man game, skip passes that caused defenses to get off balance, etc. Essentially we scored a large percentage of goals that did not involve some guy blowing by their man. Deere should be able to contribute to those efforts right away, especially plays involving picks/two man game. Now we did also have several guys who could dodge and if we truly had nobody who could beat their man a lot of those opportunities would not be available, as guys would have less issues just firmly locking onto their man since they would worry less about sliding. But when you have a foundation of guys who can dodge, you need guys who can maximize their value with those other skills to get the most out of your offense.

Adding a speed demon who may not be the best shooter passer or off ball type to that mix will often be less valuable than adding a Deere, Simmons, Thomson, or Birtwistle type. I think with our style, the offense is worse last year if we had a guy like Mateo Corsi to accompany dodgers like Leo Hiltz Kirst and Spallina instead of guys more like Thomson and Simmons, even though Corsi would draw a lot more slides.

We will need to replace Kirst's dodging ability next season. I think we will see a lot more initiation from Hiltz as our dodging attack. Spallina dodges too of course but it is a little more unorthodox. I think Hiltz would have dodged a lot more last season if we did not have so much success with Kirst. He had some yips and bad games shooting last year that was unfortunate to see. Seemed to get in his own head at times. Never thought we would see him end a season shooting 30%. I still think he has the skills and dodging ability to be one of the best attack in the nation. Mule, despite all the points, actually seems to play more like a Thomson Simmons type of player than a Kirst. Has a patient style of play from what I have seen, and the dodging was often done by other speedy guys on Lehigh.

 

[Zack80]

I thought Syracuse picked up Sam English?

 

[Laxfanshutt]

I thought Syracuse picked up Sam English?

Yes they did

 

[Zack80]

Doesn't English dodge? I tend to recall him doing that a bit

----
Notes:
They list Malever at 6'1", 198 on the Terps' roster.

Eric Spanos had a .375 shooting pct. He slumped at the start of the season and was 1 for 14 in the first four games. Spanos was 17 of 34 in the final 12 games, .500. Most Terp fans are rather optimistic about him doing more this year.

Ford had 42g, 34a - 76 pts for Boys' Latin this Spring - pretty good numbers.

 

[relaxer]

Doesn't English dodge? I tend to recall him doing that a bit

----
Notes:
They list Malever at 6'1", 198 on the Terps' roster.

Eric Spanos had a .375 shooting pct. He slumped at the start of the season and was 1 for 14 in the first four games. Spanos was 17 of 34 in the final 12 games, .500. Most Terp fans are rather optimistic about him doing more this year.

Ford had 42g, 34a - 76 pts for Boys' Latin this Spring - pretty good numbers.

I'm very optimistic about Spanos. I think he's a guy who could end up being a future #1 for the Terps. There are times where he looks uncoverable. Watching him in high school he had that unique combination of being a physical bully but with high level stick kills and finishing flare.

Ford is a great player, and an elite high school player -- his production at the high school level has never been in doubt. D1 is a whole different ball game. That's where I have concerns.

 

[Zack80]

I'm very optimistic about Spanos. I think he's a guy who could end up being a future #1 for the Terps. There are times where he looks uncoverable. Watching him in high school he had that unique combination of being a physical bully but with high level stick kills and finishing flare.

Ford is a great player, and an elite high school player -- his production at the high school level has never been in doubt. D1 is a whole different ball game. That's where I have concerns.

Well, I guess you have a right to your own opinion, but given that your evaluation tends to fit attackmen into a specific type, which Ford is not, I have little concern for your opinion..

 

[315Upstate]

SSDM is possible, but I would not rule him out on offense entirely. I saw a good chunk of the game yesterday and thought he did a solid job matching feet when on defense. Think this years game in particular felt very casual, so it is really not a great time to be judging anyone. Spallina was playing a lot of two way and played quite a lot in general as well, so he was probably not showing 110% of his motor like if he came in for a single ssdm or middie shift in a Cuse game.

Like with Joey his lack of height is noticeable. That may be harder to overcome on the defensive end than on offense at the D1 level. I still think he could have a shot at offense down the line. His first step/athleticism is legit and I have seen some good shooting and passing in the one or two mount sinai games I watched. He has the Spallina IQ. Think he certainly deserved to be at the game and to say he was only there for his last name is silly. Special treatment for him but none for Brett? He had a great senior season and even if relaxer thinks his versatility will not translate, that versatility is what got him in the game rather than his last name.

Think this is a fair assessment and judging a late July stand alone game harshly is not wise. Deere is going to be very impactful and him playing with Joey all summer is a big advantage. Hopefully Donny Scott has a speedy recovery

 

[relaxer]

Well, I guess you have a right to your own opinion, but given that your evaluation tends to fit attackmen into a specific type, which Ford is not, I have little concern for your opinion..

It doesn't bother me if you don't have concern for my opinion; my word and analysis are not the gospel. But my take is not based on only valuing watterbug attack men, even if they have the highest hit rate.

I've plainly stated that there are a number of different types of attack men who can be elite. It just requires that they be either a great dodger or an elite finisher (guys who are purely feeders are role players no matter how good their passing ability is, as evidenced by TJ Haley at Georgetown). The dodgers come in several types: there are those that get by on pure foot speed (Chris Gray types), and there are those that use some combination of foot speed/length/physicality (at least two out of the three attributes). O'Neill and Kirst have all three. Dordevic had speed and physicality. Guys like Wisnauskas have length and physicality. Shellenberger and Bernhardt were speed and length.

Ford's issue is that at present he only has one of those three: length. He's not likely to get the foot speed, so it comes down to if he'll develop the physicality. He likes to post up and survey, but mostly to feed; he doesn't back down or push through defenders. That has to change for him to live up to his billing as a 5 star qb-style recruit. I suppose it's also not out of the question for him to have a great career as a finisher in the vein of Xander Dickson, but that's a lower ceiling than #4 overall recruit.

 

[Laxfanshutt]

 

[Zack80]

It doesn't bother me if you don't have concern for my opinion; my word and analysis are not the gospel. But my take is not based on only valuing watterbug attack men, even if they have the highest hit rate.

I've plainly stated that there are a number of different types of attack men who can be elite. It just requires that they be either a great dodger or an elite finisher (guys who are purely feeders are role players no matter how good their passing ability is, as evidenced by TJ Haley at Georgetown). The dodgers come in several types: there are those that get by on pure foot speed (Chris Gray types), and there are those that use some combination of foot speed/length/physicality (at least two out of the three attributes). O'Neill and Kirst have all three. Dordevic had speed and physicality. Guys like Wisnauskas have length and physicality. Shellenberger and Bernhardt were speed and length.

Ford's issue is that at present he only has one of those three: length. He's not likely to get the foot speed, so it comes down to if he'll develop the physicality. He likes to post up and survey, but mostly to feed; he doesn't back down or push through defenders. That has to change for him to live up to his billing as a 5 star qb-style recruit. I suppose it's also not out of the question for him to have a great career as a finisher in the vein of Xander Dickson, but that's a lower ceiling than #4 overall recruit.

You throw feeding ability out the window just because just because 1 guy who only fed, Haley, moved to the bench. Actually, feeding ability is very important. One could say it took Rambo, Wisnauskas, and O'Neill from being talented attackmen to the top level of being Tewaaraton winners.
Rambo 2017 42g-45a - 87 pts
Wisnauskas 2022 63g-42a - 103 pts
O'Neill 2023 55g-42a - 97pts
These players won their Tewaaraton award because they learned how to make the good pass. Ford already shows signs of being an outstanding passer.
Ford has potential to be an elite scorer. He is already outstanding around the goal with his array of shots, including behind-the-back. Further, he has a good mid-range shot, which could continue to develop.

Ford can dodge, but he is not elite at it. He just finished up 11th grade, and has another year to develop before coming to UMd.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

You throw feeding ability out the window just because just because 1 guy who only fed, Haley, moved to the bench. Actually, feeding ability is very important. One could say it took Rambo, Wisnauskas, and O'Neill from being talented attackmen to the top level of being Tewaaraton winners.
Rambo 2017 42g-45a - 87 pts
Wisnauskas 2022 63g-42a - 103 pts
O'Neill 2023 55g-42a - 97pts
These players won their Tewaaraton award because they learned how to make the good pass. Ford already shows signs of being an outstanding passer.
Ford has potential to be an elite scorer. He is already outstanding around the goal with his array of shots, including behind-the-back. Further, he has a good mid-range shot, which could continue to develop.

Ford can dodge, but he is not elite at it. He just finished up 11th grade, and has another year to develop before coming to UMd.

How did Ford do in the game?

 

[Zack80]

How did Ford do in the game?

Why are we discussing Ford so much on a Syracuse forum? You are always complaining about such things but here you are continuing it.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Why are we discussing Ford so much on a Syracuse forum? You are always complaining about such things but here you are continuing it.

Doesn't English dodge? I tend to recall him doing that a bit

Come on man. Every now and then someone here is going to bust your chops about posting in detail about MD happenings when 99% of posts here are cuse fans talking about cuse business. I don't mind it and often learn something, but a little ball busting is bound to happen.

As for English yes he will be a part of the crew that replaces the dodging ability of Kirst. But I assume English will play entirely at middie while Kirst played attack for most games. I think Hiltz takes a larger percentage of dodging duties from the attack position with Kirst gone. Overall I am not worried about drawing slides due to who we already have in the fold and the new additions. English and Stevens have good speed and join Leo as very effective dodging middies. Hoping Rhoa takes another step forward in that category as well.

 

[sholokov2]

Come on man. Every now and then someone here is going to bust your chops about posting in detail about MD happenings when 99% of posts here are cuse fans talking about cuse business. I don't mind it and often learn something, but a little ball busting is bound to happen.

As for English yes he will be a part of the crew that replaces the dodging ability of Kirst. But I assume English will play entirely at middie while Kirst played attack for most games. I think Hiltz takes a larger percentage of dodging duties from the attack position with Kirst gone. Overall I am not worried about drawing slides due to who we already have in the fold and the new additions. English and Stevens have good speed and join Leo as very effective dodging middies. Hoping Rhoa takes another step forward in that category as well.

Just a word about Ford. His stature, posture and demeanor remind me of Spencer and Wisnauskas, but hold on with the comparisons. Spencer was a one in a million athlete, as good a college basketball player as he was a lacrosse player and he was one of the best ever lacrosse players I have seen. Wisnauskas was a fine hs quarterback as well as an all american lacrosse player. Hard to tell much about Ford's athleticism from his videos. I need to know more about that before I group him with those guys.

 

[DMVCuseLax]

You throw feeding ability out the window just because just because 1 guy who only fed, Haley, moved to the bench. Actually, feeding ability is very important. One could say it took Rambo, Wisnauskas, and O'Neill from being talented attackmen to the top level of being Tewaaraton winners.
Rambo 2017 42g-45a - 87 pts
Wisnauskas 2022 63g-42a - 103 pts
O'Neill 2023 55g-42a - 97pts
These players won their Tewaaraton award because they learned how to make the good pass. Ford already shows signs of being an outstanding passer.
Ford has potential to be an elite scorer. He is already outstanding around the goal with his array of shots, including behind-the-back. Further, he has a good mid-range shot, which could continue to develop.

Ford can dodge, but he is not elite at it. He just finished up 11th grade, and has another year to develop before coming to UMd.

Haley was battling injury last year. He will be back.

 

[Zack80]

Come on man. Every now and then someone here is going to bust your chops about posting in detail about MD happenings when 99% of posts here are cuse fans talking about cuse business. I don't mind it and often learn something, but a little ball busting is bound to happen.

Are you sure relaxer is a Syracuse fan?

Anyways, I only brought up Ford as an example of a top attack recruit like Deere who didn't fit relaxer's mold. Then relaxer started attacking Ford, so blame him for the continuation not me. Not a conversation I particularly wanted.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Are you sure relaxer is a Syracuse fan?

Anyways, I only brought up Ford as an example of a top attack recruit like Deere who didn't fit relaxer's mold. Then relaxer started attacking Ford, so blame him for the continuation not me. Not a conversation I particularly wanted.

I am quite sure he is not a cuse fan. But he is discussing lax in general and evaluating different players, including cuse guys, not just talking about a single team's guys or what have you. I don't think he is attacking him. Just giving his opinion. Like I said I have no problem with you bringing up MD stuff. You have been here contributing for years. But on a cuse board you may get an occasional comment about it.

 

[relaxer]

You throw feeding ability out the window just because just because 1 guy who only fed, Haley, moved to the bench. Actually, feeding ability is very important. One could say it took Rambo, Wisnauskas, and O'Neill from being talented attackmen to the top level of being Tewaaraton winners.
Rambo 2017 42g-45a - 87 pts
Wisnauskas 2022 63g-42a - 103 pts
O'Neill 2023 55g-42a - 97pts
These players won their Tewaaraton award because they learned how to make the good pass. Ford already shows signs of being an outstanding passer.
Ford has potential to be an elite scorer. He is already outstanding around the goal with his array of shots, including behind-the-back. Further, he has a good mid-range shot, which could continue to develop.

Ford can dodge, but he is not elite at it. He just finished up 11th grade, and has another year to develop before coming to UMd.

Actually, I'm throwing the feeding ability out of the window because I can name a number of players who were great dodgers and mediocre feeders who were 1st/2nd/3rd team AAs, but I can't think of any elite feeders with mediocre dodging skills that received such accolades in recent years. The best player I can think of who fits that description is Hiltz -- who is not only arguably the most gifted pure passer I've seen in D1 in several years (it's him or Teat IMO), but also a terrific shooter with a lightning quick release. But even Hiltz falls below the elite tier, because he's not a consistent dodging threat.

Obviously players who were named the best player in college lacrosse are going to have no holes in their game and be able to feed, but I actually think your examples prove my point. Yes, being able to make a good pass took them from elite to #1 in the sport. But it was their other attributes that made them elite. In particular, I would argue that Rambo and O'Neill are merely decent feeders. They are spectacular dodgers who pretty much automatically drew double and triple teams, and this created open looks to other players. They don't throw the kind of inch perfect laser passes or thread balls through seemingly invisible passing lanes that make your jaw drop; they simply make the right play to the open guy after breaking down the defense. You don't need to be an elite feeder to put up gaudy assist numbers when defenses are forced to slide off of your teammates with abandon to stop you from scoring. Wisnauskas was an elite passer IMO, which helped compensate for the fact that he was a great dodger, but not quite on the level of O'Neill and Rambo (he also had a Ryan Brown-esque outside shot to keep defenses honest that he could get off from multiple release points in an instant).

Again, this all comes down to the fact that elite dodging breaks down defenses and makes it easier to accomplish everything else (especially feeding). Other skills -- such as finishing and shooting in particular -- are also essential to a great offense, but without someone with the dodging component to open things up, their impact is blunted. An elite dodging attack man can change a game regardless of supporting cast (Baum, Spencer, Gray at BU, etc), but an elite finisher typically only reaches that rarified "teamer" AA status when paired with an elite dodger (look at guys like O'Keefe, Lindley with and without Spencer and Ament; both still great players, but not record breaking goal scorers).

As for Ford, I think you are misunderstanding or mischaracterizing my comments. I am not saying that he can't become an elite player, just that he has question marks. His game doesn't look entirely dissimilar from Pat Spencer's at this point in his high school career -- but Pat Spencer was a superior athlete, and he improved tremendously over the next several years. Of course Ford could also improve dramatically as well just as any recruit could -- but it's simply cold, hard logic that attack recruits who demonstrate D1 level dodging skills are generally less risky than recruits who have yet to demonstrate that ability. I didn't say that Ford was a bust in the making, I said I had more concerns about him relative to his fellow 5 stars, which is a relatively tame observation IMO; it's a critical analysis for sure, but it's hardly attacking him. If it seems otherwise, it's only because I have continued to elaborate on my point after you have pressed me on it. And I've continued to do so not specifically because I want to talk about Ford, but because I think it's worth debating our POVs on what attributes are most important when it comes to playing different positions at the elite level in D1.

P.S. You are correct in that I am not a Syracuse fan -- I'm a fan of the D1 game as a whole, and I think this forum generally offers a lot of good insight and discussion so I participate in it all the same (just as you do as a Terp fan). I don't have an agenda and have been effusive about Cuse players in the past just as I was more measured in my assessments of the Cuse NB AAs (I would argue that my assessment of Deere would be more accurately described as qualified praise rather than skepticism). People asked for their takes on the players in the NB game, so I gave my take, but I'm always open to have my opinion changed.

 

[Zack80]

As I have already said, I don't really care what your opinion is on Spencer Ford, because I don't really find your way of analyzing things worthwhile. So lets just move on.

 

[relaxer]

As I have already said, I don't really care what your opinion is on Spencer Ford, because I don't really find your way of analyzing things worthwhile. So lets just move on.

We can move on, but not before I correct your characterization of my comments.

It's perfectly fine to agree to disagree on subjective matters such as these; I'm not the gospel on lacrosse by any means. But there is nothing about my way of analyzing things that is any different from anyone else's: you assess a player's strengths and weaknesses, and you make a judgment based on those qualities. That's all I did, and that's all any one else does.

What you really seem to have an issue with is that I was not completely effusive in my analysis of a Terp recruit, and so you've decided to characterize my opinion as an "attack", and somehow formed in an incorrect way, when my initial take that set this all off was extremely tame. Up until that point we had slightly different perspectives but seemed to be in agreement on most things.

 

[Zack80]

You did post this:
"Ford's issue is that at present he only has one of those three: length."
I imagine that is true of several hundred tall attackmen playing high school lacrosse.

Given that there is a lot of video out today on a player like Ford, I put most weight on my own eyes and watching him play.
Next, I would go with recruit experts like Ty Xanders and the nlf guy.
Next, I would look around at stuff like making 1st team MD All State and Ford's scoring numbers.

In general, I would take some fan's view on Ford with a grain of salt. Perhaps, I would give it some value if I knew the fan to be particularly knowledgeable - I know little about you.
You have indicated that 1) You don't think that any attackmen but great dodging ones should be ranked highly and 2) you don't seem to put much value on feeding abilities. These views differ from my views. Thus it is unlikely that your analysis would jive with mine.

 

[relaxer]

You did post this:
"Ford's issue is that at present he only has one of those three: length."
I imagine that is true of several hundred tall attackmen playing high school lacrosse.

Given that there is a lot of video out today on a player like Ford, I put most weight on my own eyes and watching him play.
Next, I would go with recruit experts like Ty Xanders and the nlf guy.
Next, I would look around at stuff like making 1st team MD All State and Ford's scoring numbers.

In general, I would take some fan's view on Ford with a grain of salt. Perhaps, I would give it some value if I knew the fan to be particularly knowledgeable - I know little about you.
You have indicated that 1) You don't think that any attackmen but great dodging ones should be ranked highly and 2) you don't seem to put much value on feeding abilities. These views differ from my views. Thus it is unlikely that your analysis would jive with mine.

The disconnect is that you don't seem to understand that I'm speaking in relative terms, not absolutes. When I say Ford only has length, and not foot speed and physicality, I'm saying that he doesn't have those things relative to the guys who become D1 AAs -- the best of the best in college (which is what he is being projected to be). Players like Duffy, Millon, Duenkel, and Colsey have college ready, 5 star caliber foot speed right now. A guy like Sean Browne already shows the complete athletic profile of an ACC A/M.

Ford is going to be a 3 year starter and 200+ point scorer for Boys Latin. It's not in doubt that he's a terrific player; one of the best at the high school level. And he is highly athletic relative to the several hundred other tall attack men playing high school lacrosse. But that's not who I'm comparing him to. I'm comparing him to other 5 star recruits both past and present. There are guys who are terrific D1 players in lacrosse/football/basketball, but don't have the ideal traits to translate that to the same level of success at the pro level. The same applies to the transition from high school to college, which is why I look at traits as much as production.

You are well within your rights to disagree with me and how I weight traits. I have no issue with that and just as you don't know me, I have no way of knowing if I have anywhere near as much lacrosse expertise as you do. But given the athletic/skill profiles of the majority of AA attack men over the past decade, I don't think my initial position was particularly outlandish or indefensible, which is what I took your perception of my opinion to be. If I'm misconstruing your perspective the way I believe you are misconstruing mine, then I apologize.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Zack its fine to disagree with relaxers opinion but he is entitled to it whether he ends up being right or wrong. I think its clear you guys have different opinions on Fords future and aren't going to reach a consensus. Let's all move on...

 

[Zack80]

Zack its fine to disagree with relaxers opinion but he is entitled to it whether he ends up being right or wrong. I think its clear you guys have different opinions on Fords future and aren't going to reach a consensus. Let's all move on...

I didn't say he couldn't have his opinion but just pointed out why I didn't value it. This is a discussion forum, right?

But I am for moving on. We are actually off topic and should be discussing players in the NB AA game, like Deere and McCabe Millon. How will McCabe Millon fit in for UVa?

 

[JeremyCuse]

I didn't say he couldn't have his opinion but just pointed out why I didn't value it. This is a discussion forum, right?

But I am for moving on. We are actually off topic and should be discussing players in the NB AA game, like Deere and McCabe Millon. How will McCabe Millon fit in for UVa?

I think saying you "don't value it" is a bit over the top. I mean you may disagree completely and you pointed out reasons why which is obviously fine but saying you don't value an opinion because its coming form a certain poster (even you may think that internally) is taking a bit of a personal shot.

As for Millon hard to say right now, UVA has a lot of talent right now and there's only so much time to be had. It seems like he may get a shot to run with Schellenberger and Cormier at attack. Doesn't look like Shutz is gonna move to attack. UVA also brought in that D3 attack transfer so does he push Millon to the second mid line? Gonna be some unhappy guys next spring no matter what.

I don't think Tiffany can get him to agree to a RS like he has with other top guys. Interesting to see where Colsey's son fits in, lots of rumbligns he was unhappy that SU didn't recruit him harder but he redshirted last season and hasn't really been mentioned as a guy who is looking at time with the top 9.