Babers blew it a little | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Babers blew it a little

Uh, no. You did not say a "good" gamble or "bad" gamble, but "the right gamble." Big difference. If it was "the right gamble" as you so distinctively alluded to, a TD would have ensued...plain and simple.

And, let me know where I can purchase that $1 lotto ticket that has a 90% chance of paying out $1,000,000 with only that 10% chance of being so "unlucky." ;):)
No. The right gamble is a gamble w/ a positive EV, not a positive payout. It's the right gamble because it's the right choice w/ the information that you have when you make your choice.

You're judging a guy based on hindsight and information that wasn't available when he made his decision. That's a bad idea.
 
No. The right gamble is a gamble w/ a positive EV, not a positive payout. It's the right gamble because it's the right choice w/ the information that you have when you make your choice.

You're judging a guy based on hindsight and information that wasn't available when he made his decision. That's a bad idea.

I just diplomatically disagree as I opine that if it was "right" (vs. good, favorable, etc.) then the outcome would've been the TD (or the jackpot in this all or nothing instance).

With the information that was present, I wonder what the percentages of converting on fourth and goal from 3 or so yards out vs. not? I also wonder what percentages of coaches would've gone for the TD vs. kicking the FG based on the 'situational' aspect of the moment? Meaning, due to only 1 minute left and zero time outs left for us, there was no way we could keep them pinned back/get the ball back in good field position, etc. They just ran out the clock by taking the knee.

I bet Vegas sure loves you! ;):)
 
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He was too aggressive?

. This guy is expecting your wishful playbook.
you don't understand any of this well enough to know what my wishful playbook is

if you want to learn about this stuff, read david romer's paper. every spot on the field has an expected points value. if there's time in the half, you go for it inside the five because even if you miss, the other team is in such a bad spot, the expected points are positive for you. when they can just kneel, the expected points aren't positive.
 
Starting to wonder if trying that first FG was building off of Murphy’s Miami week. When he missed he (the word missed is being kind) he realized it was bad Road Murphy and was only going to kick FGs when there was little to no chance of a 4th down conversion. I’m sure he didn’t want the last play to come down to him, but Dungey taking that terrible sack forced it.
they never took a shot deep after that if i remember correctly. i wish they had but they were scared of getting criticized for risking not getting into fg range.

i think dungey is so spent at the end of these games, his decision making suffers. i don't mean that as a harsh criticism, i think it's inevitable
 
you don't understand any of this well enough to know what my wishful playbook is

if you want to learn about this stuff, read david romer's paper. every spot on the field has an expected points value. if there's time in the half, you go for it inside the five because even if you miss, the other team is in such a bad spot, the expected points are positive for you. when they can just kneel, the expected points aren't positive.

People fixated on expected points are the ultimate stats nerds. It's a data point that should inform decision making, not determine it.
 
It shouldn't have decided the game, but it did. Questionable coaching and lack of execution is a huge problem away from the Dome.
 
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it.

My opinion is based on logic, whereas yours is based on emotions and rules of thumb that you invented and are blankety applying to all situations. Think about that.

What logic? Your choice is like hitting on 17...Most of the time you'll bust.

Mine is based on these simple facts: 1) We were down 7 on the road. 2) It is the end of the first half. 3) We just got a TO and 4) We were on like the 8 yard line...Therefore, you take the points and your momentum into the locker room. The odds were against Dino and he lost...

But it's okay because FSU had more talent. And it doesn't matter that we lost because we played better than last year. Now, to me, that's a rationalization, period. And you won't be able to hide behind it when and if we get better talent. We were good enough to win yesterday.
 
I probably would have took the points but it doesnt mean he was wrong. losing by 3 says nothing about that situaton at the end of the half. So many factors in the second half that could have changed the position they were in. As a staff you have to make decisions based on the situation, the players and scheme you have. We don't know what the staff and the players dicussed all week during prepartion. Ive seen alot of great coaches make bad decisions. Its easy to point a finger at the screen. We have no idea whats going on behind the scenes at a game. What factored into their decsion. As a coach for 20 years, a lot factors in on decisions that people wouldnt know. Theres a lot of moving parts that we dont see when we sit in a chairs and watch the screen. What mental state are the players in? How confident do they look? Whats the body languange of the other team? Dino and his staff will take chances. Some will work and some won't but that decision at the half wasnt the reason why they loss. If it was the last play of the game. I will feel differently.

Now as far as the play they ran. Im not trying to defend Dino but if you watch the play. It was a good call. FSU just happened to guess the right way and had fast guys running to the ball. Maybe they saw something on film and guessed but we had them out number 6 to 4 on the left side of the ball. Outside zone play with those numbers and all you need is 3 yards? Thats hard to say no to. For any team.
 
It shouldn't have decided the game, but it did. Questionable coaching and lack of execution is a huge problem away from the Dome.
the difference in expected points for the three questionable 4th down calls probably adds up to 3-4

i don't think any one of them was horrible but each of them were a little wrong. i'm concerned that he's getting a little mixed up and winging it the last few games
 
What logic? Your choice is like hitting on 17...Most of the time you'll bust.

Mine is based on these simple facts: 1) We were down 7 on the road. 2) It is the end of the first half. 3) We just got a TO and 4) We were on like the 8 yard line...Therefore, you take the points and your momentum into the locker room. The odds were against Dino and he lost...

But it's okay because FSU had more talent. And it doesn't matter that we lost because we played better than last year. Now, to me, that's a rationalization, period. And you won't be able to hide behind it when and if we get better talent. We were good enough to win yesterday.
to hell with momentum. it's not a thing. it's just goofy story telling bs. fsu fans could say, we held them to a FG, we have the momentum now.
 
you don't understand any of this well enough to know what my wishful playbook is

if you want to learn about this stuff, read david romer's paper. every spot on the field has an expected points value. if there's time in the half, you go for it inside the five because even if you miss, the other team is in such a bad spot, the expected points are positive for you. when they can just kneel, the expected points aren't positive.

Very true. I am more meathead oriented. But Babers is your dream coach and now your finding ways to complain about being too aggressive. Just...funny.
 
What logic? Your choice is like hitting on 17...Most of the time you'll bust.

Mine is based on these simple facts: 1) We were down 7 on the road. 2) It is the end of the first half. 3) We just got a TO and 4) We were on like the 8 yard line...Therefore, you take the points and your momentum into the locker room. The odds were against Dino and he lost...

But it's okay because FSU had more talent. And it doesn't matter that we lost because we played better than last year. Now, to me, that's a rationalization, period. And you won't be able to hide behind it when and if we get better talent. We were good enough to win yesterday.
"Mine is based on these simple facts: 1) We were down 7 on the road. 2) It is the end of the first half. 3) We just got a TO and 4) We were on like the 8 yard line...Therefore, you take the points and your momentum into the locker room."

Saying a handful of unrelated facts and then an erroneous statement that inexplicably begins w/ 'therefore' doesn't mean your position is based on facts.

We were down 7 on the road to a team that's widely regarded as more talented than we are, while playing in what is widely regarded as one of the most hostile environments in the nation. We went into the game as a dog, and most analysts attributed our best chance of winning to FSU locker room issues, and stressed the need to make FSU players doubt themselves early, while taking the FSU fans out of the game.

Hitting a FG (assuming that we would have made it) would have sent FSU into the half on pace to cover the spread, and it would have left us down by at TD (or at least more than a FG). Failing to score would have left us down by a TD (exactly). And scoring a TD would have tied the game.

Additionally, FSU was having a hard time covering Ish and Phillips w/o leaving running lanes open for Dungey. That's evidenced by the facts that Dungey had over 100 rushing yards (5 YPC) and Ish and Phillips each had 12 catches (11.9 and 8.9 YPC respectively). Those are full game stats, but I don't have halftime stats, and honestly, they're indicative of how the first half was going. In fact, Phillips was wide open in the endzone on the prior play.

And lastly, to the extent that you believe momentum matters, we had momentum.

It's significantly easier for me to believe that going into the half tied (and on pace to lose the spread) would have been far more destructive to the 'Nole psyche than w/ a point lead (and on pace to cover the spread). It's also extremely hard to believe that the expected value for going for it on the 5 yard line is less than the expected value for hitting a chip FG. Assuming that we hit chip shots 97% of the time, we would only need to score a TD about 40% of the time to break even. Unless you honestly believe that FSU could stop Ish + Phillips + Dungey over 60% of the time, then you shouldn't advocate for a FG.

Furthermore, given that we were underdogs w/ a significant talent disadvantage, we maximize our chance of winning by increasing the volatility of the game, as playing conservatively increases the likelihood of the expected result happening. Taking risks, however, increases the likelihood of an outlier event happening - either for better or worse. Given a loss is a loss, outlier events have a positive EV.

So in summary, going for it probably had a positive EV from a psychological perspective, which was widely regarded as a key to the game, and it almost definitely had a positive EV from a points perspective, and it also made sense from a mathematical perspective of increasing the game's uncertainty. As such, it maximized our chance of winning, and it was therefore a good idea.

Also, FWIW, if everything played out the same, the extra 3 points would have sent us to overtime, where we would have had a 50% chance to win. So arguably, going for 6-7 was the right call w/ hindsight in the form of knowing that it would be a 3 point game w/ a minute left.

"But it's okay because FSU had more talent. And it doesn't matter that we lost because we played better than last year. Now, to me, that's a rationalization, period. And you won't be able to hide behind it when and if we get better talent. We were good enough to win yesterday."

And this is incoherent rambling. Losing because someone else had more talent isn't OK, and I never said that it was. Losing when you made the right calls and got unlucky is. Pretending like you shouldn't adjust your game plan to talent differences is crazy.
 
Very true. I am more meathead oriented. But Babers is your dream coach and now your finding ways to complain about being too aggressive. Just...funny.
I want coaches who are rational. Babers is better than most. This isn't about aggression.
 
I think going for it vs trying a FG (I don't consider the 3 pts to be automatic) is a debatable topic with equal merits on each side and no clear cut right answer. If we had scored a TD, Babers would have been lauded by all for his aggressiveness and confidence. If we kicked the FG, it might have changed the outcome of the game in a different way that we will never know. For example, if it's 27-27, does FSU punt at the end or go for it? Probably they go for it. Maybe they pick up the first down and end up kicking a FG to win. If we try the FG and Murphy misses - a legitimate concern - Babers gets chastised for not being aggressive enough.

IMO, there is no right or wrong call in that situation, just a good or bad outcome.
 
If "eh" means the game is going to overtime, I'm on board with "eh."

How do you go into overtime at the half? Oh, you mean that affected the 2nd half where we outscored them? Oh... actually not sure what you mean?
 
How do you go into overtime at the half? Oh, you mean that affected the 2nd half where we outscored them? Oh... actually not sure what you mean?

We lost the game by three points. And three points were handed to us on a silver platter at the end of the first half.
 
How do you go into overtime at the half? Oh, you mean that affected the 2nd half where we outscored them? Oh... actually not sure what you mean?

Based on that logic there’s no reason to score at all in the 1st half because it doesn’t impact the end of the 2nd half.
 
We lost the game by three points. And three points were handed to us on a silver platter at the end of the first half.
So, with a different score, everything would have played out exactly the same? Same playcalling on both sides?
 
So, with a different score, everything would have played out exactly the same? Same playcalling on both sides?

Obviously there's no way to know for sure, but our chances of going to overtime would have gone up by a huge percentage with those extra three points in our back pocket that were handed to us.
 
"Mine is based on these simple facts: 1) We were down 7 on the road. 2) It is the end of the first half. 3) We just got a TO and 4) We were on like the 8 yard line...Therefore, you take the points and your momentum into the locker room."

Saying a handful of unrelated facts and then an erroneous statement that inexplicably begins w/ 'therefore' doesn't mean your position is based on facts.

We were down 7 on the road to a team that's widely regarded as more talented than we are, while playing in what is widely regarded as one of the most hostile environments in the nation. We went into the game as a dog, and most analysts attributed our best chance of winning to FSU locker room issues, and stressed the need to make FSU players doubt themselves early, while taking the FSU fans out of the game.

Hitting a FG (assuming that we would have made it) would have sent FSU into the half on pace to cover the spread, and it would have left us down by at TD (or at least more than a FG). Failing to score would have left us down by a TD (exactly). And scoring a TD would have tied the game.

Additionally, FSU was having a hard time covering Ish and Phillips w/o leaving running lanes open for Dungey. That's evidenced by the facts that Dungey had over 100 rushing yards (5 YPC) and Ish and Phillips each had 12 catches (11.9 and 8.9 YPC respectively). Those are full game stats, but I don't have halftime stats, and honestly, they're indicative of how the first half was going. In fact, Phillips was wide open in the endzone on the prior play.

And lastly, to the extent that you believe momentum matters, we had momentum.

It's significantly easier for me to believe that going into the half tied (and on pace to lose the spread) would have been far more destructive to the 'Nole psyche than w/ a point lead (and on pace to cover the spread). It's also extremely hard to believe that the expected value for going for it on the 5 yard line is less than the expected value for hitting a chip FG. Assuming that we hit chip shots 97% of the time, we would only need to score a TD about 40% of the time to break even. Unless you honestly believe that FSU could stop Ish + Phillips + Dungey over 60% of the time, then you shouldn't advocate for a FG.

Furthermore, given that we were underdogs w/ a significant talent disadvantage, we maximize our chance of winning by increasing the volatility of the game, as playing conservatively increases the likelihood of the expected result happening. Taking risks, however, increases the likelihood of an outlier event happening - either for better or worse. Given a loss is a loss, outlier events have a positive EV.

So in summary, going for it probably had a positive EV from a psychological perspective, which was widely regarded as a key to the game, and it almost definitely had a positive EV from a points perspective, and it also made sense from a mathematical perspective of increasing the game's uncertainty. As such, it maximized our chance of winning, and it was therefore a good idea.

Also, FWIW, if everything played out the same, the extra 3 points would have sent us to overtime, where we would have had a 50% chance to win. So arguably, going for 6-7 was the right call w/ hindsight in the form of knowing that it would be a 3 point game w/ a minute left.

"But it's okay because FSU had more talent. And it doesn't matter that we lost because we played better than last year. Now, to me, that's a rationalization, period. And you won't be able to hide behind it when and if we get better talent. We were good enough to win yesterday."

And this is incoherent rambling. Losing because someone else had more talent isn't OK, and I never said that it was. Losing when you made the right calls and got unlucky is. Pretending like you shouldn't adjust your game plan to talent differences is crazy.

And your diatribe doesn’t make you correct. You just have a different opinion. I’d of taken the 3. You’d go for 6. Got it. I won’t back off my opinion just because you say so. I’ll continue to believe that Dino rolled the dice and lost. Period.

But the absolute fact of the matter is we lost by 3.

And, given the outcome, a 50% chance for a win via a FG on the last play of the game gives us a better chance to win than having to make the same FG to tie then win in OT.
 
We lost the game by three points. And three points were handed to us on a silver platter at the end of the first half.


For me it was pretty simple - we had to score twice to win.

We should have kicked the FG - the first score of the two needed.

We couldn't win the game at halftime - we made a mistake.
 
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For me it was pretty simple - we had to score twice to win.

We should haves kicked the FG - the first score of the two needed.

We couldn't win the game at halftime- we made a mistake.

Great point. Down 21-14, we need two scores to win...
 

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