Dungey - Who here thinks | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Dungey - Who here thinks

NYC, Boston, Toronto, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are all a 5 hour drive from Syracuse and 4 of them have NFL franchises. Can't be that hard to find a world renown Neurologist that you can drive a kid to in under 5 hours.

We aren't limited to Syracuse.


I have little doubt that Eric Dungey and his family will seek out additional opinions from the best in the field.

I also have little doubt that there was no need to secure a definitive "second opinion" with two weeks to go in the season.

I suspect that following the Clemson game, Eric was told that there was nothing left to do to treat the injury - that he should just relax and stay away from additional contact for the time being and that he should wait until after the season to schedule an appointment with a bona fide head trauma expert.

Concussion symptoms typically abate fairly quickly.

So, if it were my son, that is what I would do.
 
This is my thinking as well. Mahoney having the game he did yesterday makes me feel much better about next year. It will help to have a more experienced and trained O Line and running game next year ... but hoping that will reduce designed QB runs and turn ED into a pocket passer doesn't guarantee his continued good health.

As 2017 plays out we'll have a series of easier games followed by a tough end of the year schedule. If I am HCDB I am wondering whether it makes more sense to get Mahoney the experience against the lesser portion of the schedule rather than wait and throw him to the wolves AGAIN with the tougher opponents after ED has been knocked out of college ball for good four games into the season.

I love ED but he has taken more hits than Snoop Dog the last couple of years, that's not something that ED or his family will want to continue happening.
Mahoney did that against the 127th pass defense in the country (out of 128!). It tells us very little about him.
 
I clicked on her education.

Education
  • Medical School
    Palo Alto University

    Graduated in 1993

  • Internship Hospital
    Va Palo Alto Healthcare System

    Completed in 1993

  • Fellowship Hospital
    Uc Davis Medical Center

    Completed in 1995

    University Of Rochester School Of Medicine
    Completed in 1994

  • Undergraduate School
    San Jose State University

    Graduated in 1988

Dr. Theresa M. Covington, PHD - Liverpool, NY - Neuropsychology & Clinical Psychology & Psychology | Healthgrades.com
I only see clinical psychology there.
 
This situation would be handled much differently at a southern or Texas school such as Baylor . That is going through the Dino's thoughts as he considers his options.
I wish I were one of those chosen ones, reading his mind and all.
 
I pretty sure Luke Arciniega had to sign one before he could play here because of his past concussions.
He did, it mentions it in the article.
 
NYC, Boston, Toronto, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are all a 5 hour drive from Syracuse and 4 of them have NFL franchises. Can't be that hard to find a world renown Neurologist that you can drive a kid to in under 5 hours.

We aren't limited to Syracuse.

And you dont need a big city to find an established neurologist and/or sports med doc.
 
I don't understand the issue with using a family practitioner. Hasn't he been the team physician for literally decades? I'm sure they get neurology consult for any severe concussion.
 
I wish I were one of those chosen ones, reading his mind and all.

While I agree that CousCous could quite possibly read minds...

I hate that I am saying this, but I kind of agree with him, Babers has to factor everything into a decision to stay or go. And having an unqualified doctor pulling players off the field is kind of a big deal and the concussion protocol being relatively rigid is kind of a big deal.

Just look at how it derailed the last 3 -4 games of this season. What's to say that Dr Tucker isn't going to do the same thing every year going forward. He has DQ'd 6 players in 5 years and has affected our depth at one position or another for a while now.

If Babers does leave and I was an incoming coach I would have it written into my contract that Tucker has nothing to do with the Football team before I ever signed anything. Don't think that other coaches haven't heard or don't know because they all talk to each other.
 
And you dont need a big city to find an established neurologist and/or sports med doc.
That wasn't my point, typically the best of the best reside in the big cities and I guarantee every NFL franchise has them.

The best cancer facilities any distance from here reside in Boston and NYC, it's not hard to figure that out.
 
This situation would be handled much differently at a southern or Texas school such as Baylor . That is going through the Dino's thoughts as he considers his options.
Are you implying that schools (or doctors) in the south put the desire to win games ahead of the desire to protect the players? If that's the case i'm ok with supporting a northern school.
 
Kyle Knapp

And Tyler Provo was also a concussion.
Yes. Kyle ended up transferring to Western Michigan, where he tried to play football. Believe he is a senior this year. Not listed on their roster. Don't think he was ever allowed to play there...
 
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While I agree that CousCous could quite possibly read minds...

I hate that I am saying this, but I kind of agree with him, Babers has to factor everything into a decision to stay or go. And having an unqualified doctor pulling players off the field is kind of a big deal and the concussion protocol being relatively rigid is kind of a big deal.

Just look at how it derailed the last 3 -4 games of this season. What's to say that Dr Tucker isn't going to do the same thing every year going forward. He has DQ'd 6 players in 5 years and has affected our depth at one position or another for a while now.

If Babers does leave and I was an incoming coach I would have it written into my contract that Tucker has nothing to do with the Football team before I ever signed anything. Don't think that other coaches haven't heard or don't know because they all talk to each other.
I totally get it. It just feels like every thread either turns into a "Babers gon leave!" thread or it's mentioned a million times (yes, a bit hyperbolic, I know). I certainly hope there's more to discuss as time goes on.
 
I totally get it. It just feels like every thread either turns into a "Babers gon leave!" thread or it's mentioned a million times (yes, a bit hyperbolic, I know). I certainly hope there's more to discuss as time goes on.
I agree but the carousel goes round and round every year.

There are only a few jobs open though and I don't think any of them are as good as SU, Houston I would consider on equal footing because they can pay more but they are G5 with a lot of resources and deep pockets. Not really a great path to a championship.

I haven't heard of any other jobs opening up beyond these below.

#1 Art Briles - Baylor - OPEN
#2 Ron Turner - FIU (Butch Davis)
#3 Les Miles - LSU (Coach O)
#4 Darrell Hazell - Purdue - OPEN
#5 Tim DeRuyter - Fresno St. (Jeff Tedford)
#6 Trent Miles - Georgia St. - OPEN
#7 Charlie Strong - Texas (Tom Herman)
#8 Tom Herman - Houston - OPEN
#9 Charlie Partridge - FAU - OPEN
 
I agree but the carousel goes round and round every year.

There are only a few jobs open though and I don't think any of them are as good as SU, Houston I would consider on equal footing because they can pay more but they are G5 with a lot of resources and deep pockets. Not really a great path to a championship.

I haven't heard of any other jobs opening up beyond these below.

#1 Art Briles - Baylor - OPEN
#2 Ron Turner - FIU (Butch Davis)
#3 Les Miles - LSU (Coach O)
#4 Darrell Hazell - Purdue - OPEN
#5 Tim DeRuyter - Fresno St. (Jeff Tedford)
#6 Trent Miles - Georgia St. - OPEN
#7 Charlie Strong - Texas (Tom Herman)
#8 Tom Herman - Houston - OPEN
#9 Charlie Partridge - FAU - OPEN
Here is the breakdown of a few Texas FB writers regarding the vacancies in their state: Who will be coaching at Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor and other in-state schools in 2017? Our writers give their predictions | SportsDay

Note: HCDB's name isn't listed anywhere.
 
I have some thoughts.

1. I think some people here are really overstepping boundaries with how certain they are saying this doctor isn't qualified.

2. I'm more than a little bit appalled at how willing some seem to be to see young people "just" make an informed decision ie they keep playing football, whatever informed decision means.

3. I'm a little bothered by how aggressively people are willing to take their assumptions and apply them to what they think the right thing would be for Coach Babers to do.

We're all working from limited information, but I know this - good things don't happen to people when they take hard hits to the head. Ever. Sometimes nothing happens, and sometimes bad things happen immediately or down the road, but never good things. So I'll take being called a hypocrite because I played in highschool and I like watching football now and I make jokes about concussions, but I'll happily ride a high horse here and say collectively, as fans, our priorities are really messed up, sometimes coaches have messed up priorities, and sometimes players have messed up priorities, and that's pretty dumb but maybe what we deserve since we enjoy seeing people's heads get smacked around so much.
 
Are you implying that schools (or doctors) in the south put the desire to win games ahead of the desire to protect the players? If that's the case i'm ok with supporting a northern school.
Well , Dungey comes back on the sidelines at Clemson and then is throwing the ball around before the other games , on the field which seems like not protocol for a concussion . So if he doesn't have a concussion , why can't he play ? If it is another type of injury , why can that not be disclosed ? Just CYA , okay , then who wants to be the coach put on the spot with that going on .
 
I have some thoughts.

1. I think some people here are really overstepping boundaries with how certain they are saying this doctor isn't qualified.

2. I'm more than a little bit appalled at how willing some seem to be to see young people "just" make an informed decision ie they keep playing football, whatever informed decision means.

3. I'm a little bothered by how aggressively people are willing to take their assumptions and apply them to what they think the right thing would be for Coach Babers to do.

We're all working from limited information, but I know this - good things don't happen to people when they take hard hits to the head. Ever. Sometimes nothing happens, and sometimes bad things happen immediately or down the road, but never good things. So I'll take being called a hypocrite because I played in highschool and I like watching football now and I make jokes about concussions, but I'll happily ride a high horse here and say collectively, as fans, our priorities are really messed up, sometimes coaches have messed up priorities, and sometimes players have messed up priorities, and that's pretty dumb but maybe what we deserve since we enjoy seeing people's heads get smacked around so much.

While I agree with you on some points, there are actual reasons that some of us feel the way we do on this issue.

One of which is that almost ALL if not ALL P5 schools don't let a GP make the final call when it comes to concussions, it is a Neurologist that makes that call and they don't run it by the GP just to see what his opinion is because the GP's opinion means squat.

A long read but a good article on AJ and Arciniega among others, nowhere does it mention that Tucker consulted with any other physicians before he DQ'd AJ or Luke. Nor does AJ or Luke mention that either went to see a specialist, the call was completely Tucker's.

Disqualified after concussions, college football players recruited back onto the field

"Long’s parents suspected that the university’s decision wasn’t entirely about their son’s health — and that the coaches no longer wanted him on the team."

Also from the Article below...

Long’s father and stepmother, Isla, talked to Tucker after he disqualified A.J., and they came away thinking the decision was made with inadequate testing and without consulting concussion experts. Syracuse would not allow Tucker, who is a family medicine doctor, to be interviewed for this story.

Isla Long is an attorney in Philadelphia, and she researched the Syracuse concussion policy. It says that any student-athlete with two documented concussions resulting in missed practice or playing time will receive a letter from the team physician warning that a third concussion “may disqualify” them from contact sports at the school.

Basing disqualifications on the number of concussions “is not the way to approach this injury,” said Michael Collins, the director of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Sports Medicine Concussion Program. He said the policy is well-intentioned, but can lead athletes to hide concussions.


An EXPERT IN CONCUSSIONS says the policy is misguided and "NOT THE WAY TO APPROACH THIS INJURY."

How many of Pitt's players have been DQ'd by concussion protocol? They have some of the leaders in this area, would be interesting to know.

Nuff said.
 
While I agree with you on some points, there are actual reasons that some of us feel the way we do on this issue.

One of which is that almost ALL if not ALL P5 schools don't let a GP make the final call when it comes to concussions, it is a Neurologist that makes that call and they don't run it by the GP just to see what his opinion is because the GP's opinion means squat.

A long read but a good article on AJ and Arciniega among others, nowhere does it mention that Tucker consulted with any other physicians before he DQ'd AJ or Luke. Nor does AJ or Luke mention that either went to see a specialist, the call was completely Tucker's.

Disqualified after concussions, college football players recruited back onto the field

"Long’s parents suspected that the university’s decision wasn’t entirely about their son’s health — and that the coaches no longer wanted him on the team."

Also from the Article below...

Long’s father and stepmother, Isla, talked to Tucker after he disqualified A.J., and they came away thinking the decision was made with inadequate testing and without consulting concussion experts. Syracuse would not allow Tucker, who is a family medicine doctor, to be interviewed for this story.

Isla Long is an attorney in Philadelphia, and she researched the Syracuse concussion policy. It says that any student-athlete with two documented concussions resulting in missed practice or playing time will receive a letter from the team physician warning that a third concussion “may disqualify” them from contact sports at the school.

Basing disqualifications on the number of concussions “is not the way to approach this injury,” said Michael Collins, the director of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Sports Medicine Concussion Program. He said the policy is well-intentioned, but can lead athletes to hide concussions.


An EXPERT IN CONCUSSIONS says the policy is misguided and "NOT THE WAY TO APPROACH THIS INJURY."

How many of Pitt's players have been DQ'd by concussion protocol? They have some of the leaders in this area, would be interesting to know.

Nuff said.
That's fine. It's not a perfect policy.

That doesn't mean that anything here was misdiagnosed.
 
While I agree with you on some points, there are actual reasons that some of us feel the way we do on this issue.

One of which is that almost ALL if not ALL P5 schools don't let a GP make the final call when it comes to concussions, it is a Neurologist that makes that call and they don't run it by the GP just to see what his opinion is because the GP's opinion means squat.

A long read but a good article on AJ and Arciniega among others, nowhere does it mention that Tucker consulted with any other physicians before he DQ'd AJ or Luke. Nor does AJ or Luke mention that either went to see a specialist, the call was completely Tucker's.

Disqualified after concussions, college football players recruited back onto the field

"Long’s parents suspected that the university’s decision wasn’t entirely about their son’s health — and that the coaches no longer wanted him on the team."

Also from the Article below...

Long’s father and stepmother, Isla, talked to Tucker after he disqualified A.J., and they came away thinking the decision was made with inadequate testing and without consulting concussion experts. Syracuse would not allow Tucker, who is a family medicine doctor, to be interviewed for this story.

Isla Long is an attorney in Philadelphia, and she researched the Syracuse concussion policy. It says that any student-athlete with two documented concussions resulting in missed practice or playing time will receive a letter from the team physician warning that a third concussion “may disqualify” them from contact sports at the school.

Basing disqualifications on the number of concussions “is not the way to approach this injury,” said Michael Collins, the director of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Sports Medicine Concussion Program. He said the policy is well-intentioned, but can lead athletes to hide concussions.


An EXPERT IN CONCUSSIONS says the policy is misguided and "NOT THE WAY TO APPROACH THIS INJURY."

How many of Pitt's players have been DQ'd by concussion protocol? They have some of the leaders in this area, would be interesting to know.

Nuff said.

If this is a problem with DFB, how hard is it for ADJW to inquire of other universities of their protocol, process and doctor requirements since he is supposedly that well connected? In the business world, its called benchmarking and should be investigated assuming it's a problem with the kids, parents & coaches. Problem with universities is it hard to fix what they don't think is broken.
 
That's fine. It's not a perfect policy.

That doesn't mean that anything here was misdiagnosed.
I am not saying anything was mis-diagnosed, I am saying that they have the wrong guy making that diagnosis without consulting experts in the field. Maybe they don't come to the same conclusion, matter of fact I would bet money on it that they don't. Otherwise AJ would still be here playing based on expert opinions, not a Family Practitioner.
 
I clicked on her education.

Education
  • Medical School
    Palo Alto University

    Graduated in 1993

  • Internship Hospital
    Va Palo Alto Healthcare System

    Completed in 1993

  • Fellowship Hospital
    Uc Davis Medical Center

    Completed in 1995

    University Of Rochester School Of Medicine
    Completed in 1994

  • Undergraduate School
    San Jose State University

    Graduated in 1988

Dr. Theresa M. Covington, PHD - Liverpool, NY - Neuropsychology & Clinical Psychology & Psychology | Healthgrades.com

To clarify this for everyone, neuropsychologists are not MDs, just like psychologists are not. Psychiatrists are MDs. However, neuropsychologists do treat TBI patients. A MD will send a TBI patient to a neuropsychologist for neuropsychologist testing which is a way to try to objective the extent of TBIs, help determine the symptoms. They test things like executive functioning, processing speeds. They also do validiting testing. You are scored on how well you test compare to others. Therefore, a neuropsychologist is very important in the diagnosis of TBIs and developing a treatment plan but they aren't MDs.

Also, neurologists arent the only doctors who diagnosis and treat TBIs. Others include neuropsychiatrists and physiatrists (aka PMR doctors).

There is a recent TBI obsession. A TBI is not necessarily career ending. There is a lot of unknown about them. Aka are repetitive strikes worse or hard strikes?

Also, there is something called an axonal shear injury which is caused when your brain is violently shaken inside your skull (doesnt require direct blow to head). This can be devastating injury and cant be seen on films. Theyre trying to develop higher quality imaging but the research into them is disputed.

More objective signs of TBIs is when midline shift occurs. That is when brain swells so badly that midline in brain shifts to other side. May require surgery. Probably uncommon with football injuries and can be seen on MRIs.

Just lots of studying that is needed. But lets not rush to every concussion is a career ender. Let the doctors do their job.
 
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To clarify this for everyone, neuropsychologists are not MDs, just like psychologists are not. Psychiatrists are MDs. However, neuropsychologists do treat TBI patients. A MD will send a TBI patient to a neuropsychologist for neuropsychologist testing which is a way to try to objective the extent of TBIs, help determine the symptoms. They test things like executive functioning, processing speeds. They also do validiting testing. You are scored on how well you test compare to others. Therefore, a neuropsychologist is very important in the diagnosis of TBIs and developing a treatment plan but they aren't MDs.

Also, neurologists arent the only doctors who diagnosis and treat TBIs. Others include neuropsychiatrists and physiatrists (aka PMR doctors).

There is a recent TBI obsession. A TBI is not necessarily career ending. There is a lot of unknown about them. Aka are repetitive strikes worse or hard strikes?

Also, there is something called an axonal shear injury which is caused when your brain is violently shaken inside your skull (doesnt require direct blow to head). This can be devastating injury and cant be seen on films. Theyre trying to develop higher quality imaging but the research into them is disputed.

More objective signs of TBIs is when midline shift occurs. That is when brain swells so badly that midline in brain shifts to other side. May require surgery. Probably uncommon with football injuries and can be seen on MRIs.

Just lots of studying that is needed. But lets not rush to every concussion is a career ender. Let the doctors do their job.
Lets let the Neurologists and TBI Experts and Centers do their jobs, not a Family Practitioner with no background in brain injury.
 

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