Gillon versus Howard

[OttoMets]

Since the horrible charge called against him early in the South Carolina game his confidence in himself has been degrading.

I think that's true. Similar for Gillon - he got introduced to physical play in that game and he hasn't been the same since. I could swear he made every layup from all sorts of wild angles in the first few games. Since SC, even the easy ones are an adventure. Something got into his head.

 

[Forloveoforange]

This should be the title of the Syracuse 16-17 season. Gillon vs Howard.

Yes, Howard has the skills when confident. Yes, Gillon has the skills when confident. Howard lost the confidence when he saw Gillon playing well. Gillon lost the confidence when Boeheim started yelling at him. Its been a high competition season that has not brought out the best in either player.

Imagine if they can both get back to what they are capable of... This season is not over, but it is a very complicated season! I think Boeheim put both of them in the game at the same time (a while ago), in hopes to make both of them happy, because he knew they only play well when they are happy. He was trying to lose the competition between them, but unfortunately that didn't work either. I personally wish that Coach Boeheim didn't out of the blue (it seemed to this viewer anyway) scream at Gillon, like the next game after a perfect game by Gillon. Its hard for a young guy to think that a perfect game the game before is lost on one play the next game.

 

[br801]

There's a lot of fiction there. Howard's play was in decline before JB went to Gillon as his main PG, and Gillon has had some tremendous games in ACC play after JB "started yelling at him."

They are both maddeningly inconsistent players who will likely have some very good and very bad nights the rest of the way, depending on the matchups they face. If one of them shows up with adequate PG play, this team will have a chance against just about anyone.

 

[Forloveoforange]

There's a lot of fiction there. Howard's play was in decline before JB went to Gillon as his main PG, and Gillon has had some tremendous games in ACC play after JB "started yelling at him."

They are both maddeningly inconsistent players who will likely have some very good and very bad nights the rest of the way, depending on the matchups they face. If one of them shows up with adequate PG play, this team will have a chance against just about anyone.

I don't know that I was completely factual. Its just the way it seemed to me.

But I didn't say that Howard's play declined when Gillon was picked as point guard. I think that Howard indirectly did it to himself. Gillon had a great game, and although Howard had been playing well, he (Howard) started to wonder himself if he could keep up with a more experienced guy. At least, that's what I predicted would happen when I saw Gillon have a flawless game. I thought to myself, this is going to be a tough year for Howard, but I did not know how tough it would be.

Its hard having a direct competition, and its probably hard when someone so much shorter plays better (when size is supposed to be an advantage). And its hard competing against more experience.

 

[Bayside44]

JB won't do that until we are eliminated in the ACC tournament.

 

[RF2044]

Battle needs to play PG pretty much the entire game for the rest of the season. Howard will not be here next year and gillon obviously won't. Any of the potential frosh we are after aren't really PG either.

Best plan is to roll White at the 2 and hope it works.

No point giving minutes to FH or JG at this point other than to spell Battle. And those mins should be gillon.

According to who?

The issues with what you are suggesting are that we don't have anyone capable of manning the 2 spot adequately other than Battle, nor do we have anybody other than White to adequately man the 3. And now Lydon, who began the season trying to play 3, is locked into playing the 5. So if not White or Lydon, who do we play at SF?

Playing White out of position up --again--after his first ineffectual stint would be a disaster. Not in favor of what you are suggesting at all.

 

[Forloveoforange]

We're starting to fire on some cylinders. We don't have to be reaching for desperate measures now. We just have to build. Coach Boeheim in the presser said we're starting to play better. I think some posters are drawing too many negatives from this North Carolina game.

 

[TCuse99]

According to who?

The issues with what you are suggesting are that we don't have anyone capable of manning the 2 spot adequately other than Battle, nor do we have anybody other than White to adequately man the 3. And now Lydon, who began the season trying to play 3, is locked into playing the 5. So if not White or Lydon, who do we play at SF?

Playing White out of position up --again--after his first ineffectual stint would be a disaster. Not in favor of what you are suggesting at all.

Ok. That's cool. We are a 7 win ACC team with our current rotation. If u accept that, let's not try anything else.

My main point though was that Battle is our PG next year. 95% chance of that. Gotta get him run there IMO

 

[RF2044]

Ok. That's cool. We are a 7 win ACC team with our current rotation. If u accept that, let's not try anything else.

My main point though was that Battle is our PG next year. 95% chance of that. Gotta get him run there IMO

Both of those things you state are opinions, not fact.

JB probably doesn't expect to only win 7 games. What you are suggesting is throwing in the towel in order to get players developmental PT. That's not how JB coaches, never has been.

 

[br801]

We're starting to fire on some cylinders. We don't have to be reaching for desperate measures now. We just have to build. Coach Boeheim in the presser said we're starting to play better. I think some posters are drawing too many negatives from this North Carolina game.

I completely agree with all of that.

 

[Ghost]

Which IMO is the only reason that Howard is getting minutes right now. Gillon can be passed and shot over on defense. He has no midrange game which means teams only need a last line of defense at the rim against his drives while everyone else sags off to play the pass. Gillon can shoot but it takes time and space to get his shot off so teams prefer to let him drive and prove he can hurt them that way. If Gillon had a 10' pullup an 8' floater that he could hit regularly it would change a lot of things but he doesn't seem to.

It's amazing how often Gillon has an open three, but a defender within 10 feet, and he can't pull the trigger because he knows they'll close out before he can get the shot off. Slow release, and short. Not a deadly combo.

I'm not sure who you go with, give them 20 minutes a half. They both seem to lose their minds when they think they have someone behind them ready to come in apparently. Just let them know, you each get a half! Kidding.

 

[Ghost]

Both of those things you state are opinions, not fact.

JB probably doesn't expect to only win 7 games. What you are suggesting is throwing in the towel in order to get players developmental PT. That's not how JB coaches, never has been.

I know, for however bad he was in anyone's mind, we did cut the lead to 2 against UNC with Gillon out there. JB is probably hanging his hat on that. I mean, I think he has no clue what to do with the PGs, but the results say Gillon. I'm not sure how as he seems like a mess in most games outside of that two or three game stretch, but that seems to be the case.

 

[Jasoncuse]

He stinks. Our point guards are shooting 25% from the field in ACC play through 6 games. Everyone else has been pretty good.

I won't straight up say he stinks, but I think he's just not a point guard. His handle is not good, it's routinely too high and he can't beat anyone off the dribble consistently. He is not strong with the ball at all and as a point guard, you can't have any of that. He's not quick and just doesn't have the right fundamentals/decision making to be a PG, IMO. He's a better fit as a combo guard or off-guard, if he can get any improvement out of his jumper. He has good size and the shot mechanics aren't bad. I do think he could develop into a respectable outside shooter, but he's not a lead guard and he needs a legit quality PG next to him if he was to be a starter. If he sticks in the program, I hope he spend all summer working on shooting. But overall, I don't think he's more than a 3rd guard, somebody that plays 12-15 minutes a game.

Dead on that the PG play has been our biggest issue, well besides interior D and rebounding. Offensively, we have enough if we had a quality PG to be successful and win more games. It's sad, because we dont' even need a star. Imagine if we simply had a kid like Matt freakin' Farrell?? Somebody that doesn't pick up their dribble 30 feet from the basket and can knock down shots. Such a novel thought.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It's confidence in their own games or lack thereof. The skills aren't there...yet. I personally believe all of this looking over their shoulders and/or feelings being hurt is a bunch of bunk. Anybody knows that at this level if you don't play well you aren't going to play. This level of ineptitude at the PG position at UNC, Arizona, or wherever would produce the same results as for Howard or Gillon here. These coaches would go with the walkon if he could handle it. It's that bad. Sure they shoot poorly against anyone good but it's the standing around, not playing downhill, inability to sustain the dribble, not making basic reads, inability to finish, etc. All this stuff is worse than the shooting. Gillon has been a little better than Howard but played well like against Pitt and Miami, though both teams are overrated. Howard has been a disaster against ANYONE decent. After South Carolina and Wisconsin Howard teased us with a good game VS Monmouth then it all went downhill from there. EMU was so bad but he still managed to pile up 5 turnovers. It was clear back then that he just didn't have it. It was sad to see such a struggle against our former BE foes.

Something must change in recruiting moving forward at the way we evaluate guards and point guards, specifically. These combos and taller types who aren't elite talents and haven't spent a lot of time playing PG are a huge risk. I think we are seeing that now with Howard and saw it with Joseph. Now Joseph may turn into a very good player at Creighton. We'll see. Howard, who knows. Gillon has his own issues and he's just limited. He was an emergency addition and gets a bit of a pass. Ron Patterson? I'm not sure how he could've contributed here besides some defense. Still, blows my mind how Michael Gbinijie became probably the most MVP Syracuse has had since Melo.

 

[Ghost]

It's confidence in their own games or lack thereof. The skills aren't there...yet. I personally believe all of this looking over their shoulders and/or feelings being hurt is a bunch of bunk. Anybody knows that at this level if you don't play well you aren't going to play. This level of ineptitude at the PG position at UNC, Arizona, or wherever would produce the same results as for Howard or Gillon here. These coaches would go with the walkon if he could handle it. It's that bad. Sure they shoot poorly against anyone good but it's the standing around, not playing downhill, inability to sustain the dribble, not making basic reads, inability to finish, etc. All this stuff is worse than the shooting. Gillon has been a little better than Howard but played well like against Pitt and Miami, though both teams are overrated. Howard has been a disaster against ANYONE decent. After South Carolina and Wisconsin Howard teased us with a good game VS Monmouth then it all went downhill from there. EMU was so bad but he still managed to pile up 5 turnovers. It was clear back then that he just didn't have it. It was sad to see such a struggle against our former BE foes.

Something must change in recruiting moving forward at the way we evaluate guards and point guards, specifically. These combos and taller types who aren't elite talents and haven't spent a lot of time playing PG are a huge risk. I think we are seeing that now with Howard and saw it with Joseph. Now Joseph may turn into a very good player at Creighton. We'll see. Howard, who knows. Gillon has his own issues and he's just limited. He was an emergency addition and gets a bit of a pass. Ron Patterson? I'm not sure how he could've contributed here besides some defense. Still, blows my mind how Michael Gbinijie became probably the most MVP Syracuse has had since Melo.

I think JB even mentioned it once....that they're too worried about PT or something, in a post-game. I think right after Gillon first got the majority of minutes and we played well.

I thought it was odd he said something along those lines. I was expecting him to say because FH was after all the rumors.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think JB even mentioned it once...that they're too worried about PT or something, in a post-game. I think right after Gillon first got the majority of minutes and we played well.

I thought it was odd he said something along those lines. I was expecting him to say because FH was . . . . after all the rumors.

True but I just don't buy it. Playing time isn't a given if you play poorly. Every other coach would bench them too, imo, and they would have feelings hurt there too. They just got exposed and have regressed.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's confidence in their own games or lack thereof. The skills aren't there...yet. I personally believe all of this looking over their shoulders and/or feelings being hurt is a bunch of bunk. Anybody knows that at this level if you don't play well you aren't going to play. This level of ineptitude at the PG position at UNC, Arizona, or wherever would produce the same results as for Howard or Gillon here. These coaches would go with the walkon if he could handle it. It's that bad. Sure they shoot poorly against anyone good but it's the standing around, not playing downhill, inability to sustain the dribble, not making basic reads, inability to finish, etc. All this stuff is worse than the shooting. Gillon has been a little better than Howard but played well like against Pitt and Miami, though both teams are overrated. Howard has been a disaster against ANYONE decent. After South Carolina and Wisconsin Howard teased us with a good game VS Monmouth then it all went downhill from there. EMU was so bad but he still managed to pile up 5 turnovers. It was clear back then that he just didn't have it. It was sad to see such a struggle against our former BE foes.

Something must change in recruiting moving forward at the way we evaluate guards and point guards, specifically. These combos and taller types who aren't elite talents and haven't spent a lot of time playing PG are a huge risk. I think we are seeing that now with Howard and saw it with Joseph. Now Joseph may turn into a very good player at Creighton. We'll see. Howard, who knows. Gillon has his own issues and he's just limited. He was an emergency addition and gets a bit of a pass. Ron Patterson? I'm not sure how he could've contributed here besides some defense. Still, blows my mind how Michael Gbinijie became probably the most MVP Syracuse has had since Melo.

I think they had so much success with MCW/Triche/Scoop that they got comfortable going after combo guards to run the team.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think they had so much success with MCW/Triche/Scoop that they got comfortable going after combo guards to run the team.

Probably so. I forgot how steady Triche was as a freshman.

 

[iommi]

I think they had so much success with MCW/Triche/Scoop that they got comfortable going after combo guards to run the team.

MCW especially. I'm convinced our staff looked at the 6'5" Howard and thought, oh, MCW II. Even though we were considering him a point guard while pretty much no one else was. And it's become apparent that everyone else was right.

 

[Forloveoforange]

Probably so. I forgot how steady Triche was as a freshman.

I believe Triche was the winningest Syracuse player ever. I knew we (I) would miss him. Triche was a major player in our recent glory years, although the stand-outs were Wes, Fab, Dion and MCW. None of those guys helped the team for 4 years like Triche. In fact, they basically all helped the team for more like one year each.

 

[orangecuse]

I don't think our future PG is currently on the roster...not sure who we could add...but obviously Gillon is gone and Howard has a shorter leash than Robey, which I didn't think was possible...

I think there is a very good chance that Howard transfers...his confidence is shattered and JB does not trust him one bit...

You forgot to include...and rightfully so!

 

[RF2044]

I believe Triche was the winningest Syracuse player ever. I knew we (I) would miss him. Triche was a major player in our recent glory years, although the stand-outs were Wes, Fab, Dion and MCW. None of those guys helped the team for 4 years like Triche. In fact, they basically all helped the team for more like one year each.

It's really too bad that Triche's percentage from three point range dipped to 29% his senior year. If he'd shot a respectable percentage, not only would he have scored a lot more points that year, but it also would have dispensed with some of the frustration that a vocal portion of our fanbase had with him.

When Triche and MCW peaked in the 2013 postseason, they were practically unstoppable both driving and shooting. They were really dialed in.

And it goes to show how big of an advantage it is to have two guards who can both handle, pass, create for themselves and others, and take it to the rim [to say nothing of that duo's incredible defense up top in our system].

 

[Halfmooncuse]

Not having a reliable point in college BB is like flying a plane without a tail wing. If anyone has a better metaphor please provide. This is all I could come up with because of the-election LSD side effects.

 

[orangecuse]

Not having a reliable point in college BB is like flying a plane without a tail wing. If anyone has a better metaphor please provide. This is all I could come up with because of the-election LSD side effects.

...A King without a castle...

 

[Forloveoforange]

It's really too bad that Triche's percentage from three point range dipped to 29% his senior year. If he'd shot a respectable percentage, not only would he have scored a lot more points that year, but it also would have dispensed with some of the frustration that a vocal portion of our fanbase had with him.

When Triche and MCW peaked in the 2013 postseason, they were practically unstoppable both driving and shooting. They were really dialed in.

And it goes to show how big of an advantage it is to have two guards who can both handle, pass, create for themselves and others, and take it to the rim [to say nothing of that duo's incredible defense up top in our system].

This is a reminder that anyone can "regress". These players are under more pressure than most people experience in a lifetime. And part of it is trying to remain healthy in a rough sport that requires agility, speed and pin-point accuracy. Its easy to sit back and say that a player can no longer do what he could before, but when is that accurate? Yes, sometimes a player's momentum swings the wrong way, but it can always come back.

And yes, it is too bad Triche's back problems (I believe that was 2013), or switching to shooting guard, or just pressure in general, got to him his senior year. Let's just call it a lack of momentum. We're all human.