how did it come to this?

[Capt. Tuttle]

The anti Cooney stuff on this board amazes me.

 

[pfister1]

My issue is that JB's substitution patterns in the first halves of our games have not made any sense. The subbing in the first half has been like the Keystone Cops. I know that JB is tinkering and trying different combinations but it's been very helter skelter. I first made that point in the chat room during the St. Bonaventure game.

At one point he had a very odd lineup in the first half against Elon that included the three freshmen plus Obokoh and one other guy (Joseph?). Where did he expect to get any leadership from? Then in the 2nd half of our last two games, he barely played the bench at all and stuck with the G, TC, TR, MR & TL lineup, as orangefoo said. I'll call that lineup: The Trusted 5.

I think these odd first half lineups have not allowed the team to get into any sort of flow. Then in the second half JB has gone primarily with The Trusted 5 because he realized the game was hanging in the balance. I know it's the non-conference but I wish JB wouldn't do the mass subbing.

I have to think in Atlantis, JB will go with a more traditional conference schedule type of pattern, where you will see Lydon probably be the first guy off the bench, followed by either KJ or FH, with CO sprinkled in. It'll be something to watch for anyway. Atlantis is like a conference tournament, with games three days in a row... so if JB doesn't want an exhausted team, he's got to play everyone.

Most importantly, he needs to include more people in the Byrnes Family Circle of Trust. It would help if he'd sprinkle in his subs better.
--------------------------
One other thing: was it ever explained why G rode the pine hard for an unusually long stretch of the first half against Elon? This seemed odd and helped allow Elon to make it a close game. This is pure speculation, but it seemed like JB may have been ticked off at G for something? Anyone know or have any guesses?

Hey everyone's got an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.....but I'll give you mine anyway.

My biggest problem with JB's substitution patterns is that we are paper thin up front and I don't think he is doing enough to get DCII going. I think we need despeerately need production out of DCII because when we start to play the teams ranked above 175 in the rankings I fear that we are going to get taken apart inside if we don't have any bulk in the middle. I realize that DCII may not be playing well, but I don't think 35 minutes of Tyler Lydon at center is a real option.

Maybe JB's strategy is he'd better win the ones we can, because we aren't going to win the ones later on??

In my view so far, this team just doesn't fit together very well....hopefully the view will improve in Atlantis. Of course 3-0 against crap competition sure beats 0-3 against crap competition.

 

[Ghost]

The anti Cooney stuff on this board amazes me.

It's not anti-Cooney. There was an anti-Scoop movement once, but people thinking our recruiting and player development has left us with a 40 MPG shooting guard of Cooney's ilk, is not the same as anti-Cooney.
Nobody is saying were better off without him, suggesting walk-ons are better, or hoping he drops out of school (as we saw with scoop) , just that three years of this is odd. I'm not sure who could conclude that TC should be a 38 MPG player on a team at the level we think we are... He is a very nice player, and most everyone would readily concede that IMO.

Should we be concerned our coaches have so much trouble teaching/implementing this defense that we can't sit people for more than a couple minutes? It's an ongoing issue now...
We can only teach one player per position this defense... If that?

 

[Cusefan0307]

The line up of Gbinije, Cooney, Mal, Roberson and Lydon is plus 19 so far on the season.

 

[Ghost]

The line up of Gbinije, Cooney, Mal, Roberson and Lydon is plus 19 so far on the season.

They definitely seem to be our closers - that's who I would want on the court at the end.

 

[rrlbees]

My issue is that JB's substitution patterns in the first halves of our games have not made any sense. The subbing in the first half has been like the Keystone Cops. I know that JB is tinkering and trying different combinations but it's been very helter skelter. I first made that point in the chat room during the St. Bonaventure game. At one point he had a very odd lineup in the first half against Elon that included the three freshmen plus Obokoh and one other guy (Joseph?). Where did he expect to get any leadership from? Then in the 2nd half of our last two games, he barely played the bench at all and stuck with the G, TC, TR, MR & TL lineup, as orangefoo said. I'll call that lineup: The Trusted 5. I think these odd first half lineups have not allowed the team to get into any sort of flow. Then in the second half JB has gone primarily with The Trusted 5 because he realized the game was hanging in the balance. I know it's the non-conference but I wish JB wouldn't do the mass subbing. I have to think in Atlantis, JB will go with a more traditional conference schedule type of pattern, where you will see Lydon probably be the first guy off the bench, followed by either KJ or FH, with CO sprinkled in. It'll be something to watch for anyway. Atlantis is like a conference tournament, with games three days in a row... so if JB doesn't want an exhausted team, he's got to play everyone. Most importantly, he needs to include more people in the Byrnes Family Circle of Trust. It would help if he'd sprinkle in his subs better. -------------------------- One other thing: was it ever explained why G rode the pine hard for an unusually long stretch of the first half against Elon? This seemed odd and helped allow Elon to make it a close game. This is pure speculation, but it seemed like JB may have been ticked off at G for something? Anyone know or have any guesses?

G had 2 quick fouls although JB did bring him back in late in the half.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

How did we get to the point where we have 5 players out of an entire roster that the coach is willing to trust for the entire 2nd half of a game against a cupcake like Elon who is picked to finish last in a no name conference? That five is being generous given that one of them is a 6'8" freshman who is playing only because the two guys behind him probably wouldn't play for Elon. I'd trade either of our centers for the Elon guy who scored on three straight possessions for them to start the second half.

I think Howard and Joseph have a ton of potential but Joseph's will never be realized because he doesn't see the court. In JB's defense Joseph doesn't do much with the time he does get on the court but we need to develop him. I hate to knock players but Coleman seems like he will never realize his high school rep and Obokoh is at least two years from being a liability on offense.

It's hard for me to imagine how a program at our level could end up in such dire straits. Bad luck? A few recruiting misses? Probation? It pains me that every year it seems like we never have any depth. We need to start developing our secondary players better so we have a better base to build on but I don't think the HOFer has the patience to do that.

"Every year it seems like we never have any depth", remember when MCW was the fourth guard? Not really all that long ago. So, yes, probation hurts.

You'd trade Lydon for one of the Elon players, really? Because Lydon is now an SU center. Unusual for SU/JB, but it seems to be very real.

JB has made some hard decisions. MG is playing point because he doesn't want to sit MR. And JB is grooming an undersized frosh into a new position at center.

This ending 5 -TL, MR, Cooney, and MG form the most long distance 3 point potential team SU has ever had on the floor since they put in the 3 point shot. And whatever team is second is not even close.

I find that exciting. And if JB is really going to do this, and it looks like he is, then I can understand him wanting time of those 5 together on the floor - especially since 2 of them are frosh.

 

[pearl31]

The anti Cooney stuff on this board amazes me.

but your anti-Kaleb Joseph stuff is alot of fun :noidea:

 

[RoatanCuse]

My issue is that JB's substitution patterns in the first halves of our games have not made any sense. The subbing in the first half has been like the Keystone Cops. I know that JB is tinkering and trying different combinations but it's been very helter skelter. I first made that point in the chat room during the St. Bonaventure game.

At one point he had a very odd lineup in the first half against Elon that included the three freshmen plus Obokoh and one other guy (Joseph?). Where did he expect to get any leadership from? Then in the 2nd half of our last two games, he barely played the bench at all and stuck with the G, TC, TR, MR & TL lineup, as orangefoo said. I'll call that lineup: The Trusted 5.

I think these odd first half lineups have not allowed the team to get into any sort of flow. Then in the second half JB has gone primarily with The Trusted 5 because he realized the game was hanging in the balance. I know it's the non-conference but I wish JB wouldn't do the mass subbing.

I have to think in Atlantis, JB will go with a more traditional conference schedule type of pattern, where you will see Lydon probably be the first guy off the bench, followed by either KJ or FH, with CO sprinkled in. It'll be something to watch for anyway. Atlantis is like a conference tournament, with games three days in a row... so if JB doesn't want an exhausted team, he's got to play everyone.

Most importantly, he needs to include more people in the Byrnes Family Circle of Trust. It would help if he'd sprinkle in his subs better.
--------------------------
One other thing: was it ever explained why G rode the pine hard for an unusually long stretch of the first half against Elon? This seemed odd and helped allow Elon to make it a close game. This is pure speculation, but it seemed like JB may have been ticked off at G for something? Anyone know or have any guesses?

G had 3 fouls with 8 minutes left in tbe first half. Thus the bench. I would have benched him when he got the second, saving him for the 2nd half. But, What do I know...?

 

[Knicks411]

G had 3 fouls with 8 minutes left in tbe first half. Thus the bench. I would have benched him when he got the second, saving him for the 2nd half. But, What do I know...?

The thing with that is Mike doesn't generally foul that much anyway. I mean, even with the 3 fouls, he played the entire second half anyway. So I'm fine rolling the dice with 2 fouls in the first half.

 

[Antiprodigy]

The reason Joseph doesn't play, isn't due to his offense. It is due to has lack of defense. JB has said that directly on at least one occasion, and has inferred it by commenting indirectly about kids needing to step up on defense multiple times.

JB is much less of a mystery than many of you make him out to be. Howard is deficient on defense as well, but not as much as Joseph.
Neither of them are good enough on offense for Jb to feel it offsets their lack of defense, like he does with Malachi.
Malachi's defense has been bad, but he does show improvement. And his offensive abilities help to offset the defensive liabilities he has. I predict that Malachi will improve to the point that he is tolerable defensively by the end of this season.

 

[pfister1]

And JB is grooming an undersized frosh into a new position at center.

I wonder, is this a short term position for Lydon or will he be switching positions next season?

Not sure what bearing it has on this season, but next season when you introduce Chuckwu does Lydon change positions. I have been kind of thinking about Lydon at center as a stop-gap emergency measure rather than a long term "fit" for getting the most out of him as a player.

 

[orangefan13]

The reason Joseph doesn't play, isn't due to his offense. It is due to has lack of defense. JB has said that directly on at least one occasion, and has inferred it by commenting indirectly about kids needing to step up on defense multiple times.

JB is much less of a mystery than many of you make him out to be. Howard is deficient on defense as well, but not as much as Joseph.
Neither of them are good enough on offense for Jb to feel it offsets their lack of defense, like he does with Malachi.
Malachi's defense has been bad, but he does show improvement. And his offensive abilities help to offset the defensive liabilities he has. I predict that Malachi will improve to the point that he is tolerable defensively by the end of this season.

imo.
The team needs to go on runs with kaleb on the floor and he needs to be a difference maker.

Hes still juggling two roles. PG when Gbinije is in foul trouble and SG when we need points.With Howard stepping up more and more maybe the idea of us going 4 guards with him stepping up at SG for Cooney and Howard stepping up at PG when Gbinije is out. That way Howard can step up and demand the ball and look to pass more and Joseph can step up and only pass out of postions he is ready to shoot from.

Surely in terms of a 2 game slump he did not guess G out with 3 fouls for 12 minutes of the first half and needing to play point. He was probably looking to pass more. He and Howard coming off the bench haven't even been a 4th scoring option the last 2 games.

I wonder if Joseph is playing to much mental ball on the offensive end, he just needs to sway the game in our favor, its really that simple. If he sees himself as a combo he should go back and watch so/jr scoop for alittle identity, but deep down, I think true scorer would be the best role for him with this team. Its better when Gbinije is on the floor next to him as well.

On top of that we are talking about a guy here who shot 25 from three and 35% from 2 last year we need to be patient and let the confidene settle in some. Keeping those jumpers tight and landing when he jumped from seemed to do the trick with his outside shooting early on. And he even drained one or two off 1-2 bounces.

 

[upperdeck]

The anti Cooney stuff on this board amazes me.

i guess all the steals are because he under rotates to the ball?

 

[realorange]

imo.
The team needs to go on runs with him on the floor and he needs to be a difference maker.

Hes still juggling two roles. PG when Gbinije is in foul trouble and SG when we need points.With Howard stepping up more and more I like the idea of us going 4 guards with him stepping up at SG for Cooney and Howard stepping up at PG when Gbinije is out. That way Howard can step up and demand the ball and look to pass more and Joseph can step up and passes out of postions he is ready to shoot from.

Surely in terms of a 2 game slump he did not have G out with 3 fouls for 12 minutes of the first half when he came in and needing to play point.I wonder if Joseph is playing to much mental ball on the offensive end, he just needs to sway the game in our favor, its really that simple. If he sees himself as a 2g combo he should go back and watch so/jr scoop for alittle identity.

That lineup would get decimated on defense.

 

[orangefan13]

That lineup would get decimated on defense.

Agree, I meant 4 guard rotation, not four at one time though.
This probably deserves its own thread and is getting it.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I wonder, is this a short term position for Lydon or will he be switching positions next season?

Not sure what bearing it has on this season, but next season when you introduce Chuckwu does Lydon change positions. I have been kind of thinking about Lydon at center as a stop-gap emergency measure rather than a long term "fit" for getting the most out of him as a player.

Next year will be another interesting year. I can't see JB having 7'2" on the bench, especially since the other parts would then be huge. The D will be suffocating.

JB might slide MR up to the 2. Then Battle, MR, TL, TR and 7'2". Tallest team in college hoops right there.

I agree this looks like a "stop-gap" measure for this year. And the point of the OP seemed to lament how we got to this stage. Well DC2 got hurt, Chino didn't develop as much as was hoped, Bryant bucked the odds and went to Indy and Diagne got NCAA'd.

JB is taking the cards he has and is playing them in an unusual way. I had hoped that MR would be so good JB would want to move MG to point. But I never saw or even contemplated the Lydon to center move.

 

[pearl31]

I honestly think it will mostly be Lydon at center for 2nds halves of games. He'll probably get a few minutes at the 5 in first halves (fouls and situationally), but it will mostly be DC and Chino in first halves of games

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I honestly think it will mostly be Lydon at center for 2nds halves of games. He'll probably get a few minutes at the 5 in first halves (fouls and situationally), but it will mostly be DC and Chino in first halves of games

I agree. But although I know it is only a couple of games, I think Lydon is showing himself to be someone you want out on the floor. Maybe he splits time with MR in the 1st half at F. JB may want to groom him for that position for next year too.

A plus with starting with DC2 and Chino is it keeps the foul pressure off of Lydon later.

 

[pearl31]

A plus with starting with DC2 and Chino is it keeps the foul pressure off of Lydon later.

Exactly.

 

[iommi]

G had 2 quick fouls although JB did bring him back in late in the half.

I knew he had three; just had a brain fart when I posted. That's what sleep deprivation will do to you. Shocked my post was relatively coherent.