I'm surprised there's no thread on Judah's outburst

[hoopsupstate]

Your timeline is wrong. Red wasn't subbing him out until he got the T.

That’s what I said. I think he was trying to explain what happened, but he was coming out of the game. I know he was coming out because of the technical, but Mintz was still trying to explain it away. I can understand why Mintz gets frustrated. Some games he goes to the foul line 15 times and others he doesn’t hardly go at all. The inconsistencies with officials is awful. He made a layup last night and the guy from Louisville blatantly grabbed and pulled his arm with no call. The ref looked right at it and didn’t blow the whistle. Several times last night the announcers said “there was a lot of contact on that play” and still no call. Mintz should absolutely keep his mouth shut, but I can see why he gets frustrated.

 

[Newhouser]

Your last point is a big one for me, among the other issues that have been discussed. Judah has a right to take time to decide his future, but I don't want to be scrambling last minute to fill his spot with just "what's left."

And as far as the technical, the entire board would have lost it's collective sh## if an opposing player held the ball from the ref and didn't get a T and everyone knows it.

Your last point is right on. Also Louisville had 10 team fouls what 8 minutes into the second half. Did we hate the stripes at that point? Also the ref who Td up Judah also called charge when Mali drew it with four fouls, and that was iffy if not wrong . Stripes are more noticeable when the play is ragged and last night both teams had long stretches of ragged.
Also, interesting but irrelevant point, the guy who called the T is the guy who worked the game when Buddy punched the kid.

 

[llandz]

Judah was wrong, but I’m not sure he knew the ref was who was grabbing for the ball. After the technical, I think Judah was trying to explain to the coaches what happened and then saw Red subbing him out. He always tries to plead his case to stay in the game. I’m not sure if it was as bad as it looked. I thought the best comment last night during the game was when they called Copeland the nickname, “megaphone“ because he never stops talking.

I thought the same thing. The ref was behind him. I don't think he knew either. A bunch of us discussed that at a game watch, and we then agreed after watching the replay. But everything is making this a bigger thing than it has to be. There is so much more we all don't know. Between coach and player.

 

[CardiacCuse]

The problem is...we have humans reffing the games. Playing it as well. Ref a game and have a kid whine all game long and get back at me on how much of that you put up with? I don't blame the ref for calling the T. I do blame Mintz, who by the way, I have been the biggest defender of on this board, for complaining as much as he does.

at the end of the day judah's entire game is dependent upon the refs calling the game correctly..important to remember that when watching how he reacts to calls...but he needs to stay on their good side

the cuse is good but the right reffing crew can help almost any team blow these guys out if they wanted

 

[dasher]

That’s what I said. I think he was trying to explain what happened, but he was coming out of the game. I know he was coming out because of the technical, but Mintz was still trying to explain it away. I can understand why Mintz gets frustrated. Some games he goes to the foul line 15 times and others he doesn’t hardly go at all. The inconsistencies with officials is awful. He made a layup last night and the guy from Louisville blatantly grabbed and pulled his arm with no call. The ref looked right at it and didn’t blow the whistle. Several times last night the announcers said “there was a lot of contact on that play” and still no call. Mintz should absolutely keep his mouth shut, but I can see why he gets frustrated.

By the way, read other teams boards. They hate the number of calls he does get. They believe the refs give him too much. Even the N.C. State coach after the game last week said that Mintz jumps in to the defender and gets the calls.

 

[Cuse181]

I don't know if it was "so quickly."

Looked to me like Judah was carrying on while the ball should have been inbounded. The ref let it go for a few seconds, but then wanted to get the ball back in play. When he reached for it, Judah pulled it away.

I'm fairly certain that Judah wasn't trying to get into it with the ref. And I'm guessing that he didn't realize it was the ref reaching for the ball [based upon Judah's reaction, I believe [and I acknowledge that this is my opinion only] that he assumed it was a Louisville player, which is why he pulled the ball away].

But put yourself in the ref's shoes. A kid is complaining about a missed call, then goes on and on with his coach on the sideline while the game should be actively live. To get things rolling, you try to get the ball from said player to get the game back on track, and the kid pulls it away.

Seemed to me like it wasn't that quick -- it was all of the stuff in combination that drew the T.

He 100% didn’t realize it, evidenced by him immediately giving it after he saw it was the ref and before the T. Agendas are showing

 

[Newhouser]

I don't know if it was "so quickly."

Looked to me like Judah was carrying on while the ball should have been inbounded. The ref let it go for a few seconds, but then wanted to get the ball back in play. When he reached for it, Judah pulled it away.

I'm fairly certain that Judah wasn't trying to get into it with the ref. And I'm guessing that he didn't realize it was the ref reaching for the ball [based upon Judah's reaction, I believe [and I acknowledge that this is my opinion only] that he assumed it was a Louisville player, which is why he pulled the ball away].

But put yourself in the ref's shoes. A kid is complaining about a missed call, then goes on and on with his coach on the sideline while the game should be actively live. To get things rolling, you try to get the ball from said player to get the game back on track, and the kid pulls it away.

Seemed to me like it wasn't that quick -- it was all of the stuff in combination that drew the T.

I agree. Also the stripe would have been written up in two seconds if he didn't call the T. These guys get evaluated every game on every play.

 

[Cuse181]

By the way, read other teasm boards. They hate the number of calls he does get. They believe the refs give him too much. Even the N.C. State coach after the game last week sid that Mintz jumps in to the defender and gets the calls.

they hate the number of calls every player gets. They bitch after every game, just like us.

 

[Cusefan0307]

They might not care who wins but at least some of them also don’t care about doing a good job.

As for players complaining, I don’t understand why it is expected that players can’t talk to refs about a call. This has never been true at any professional level of sport. Why is it supposed to be true at the collegiate level?

People who officiate sports do it not only for the money or the good of their heart, but they need to be in control for the good of the game. I’m an umpire and in our training the trainers stress taking charge of the event. I have been told basketball officiating is the same way. Constant complaining is going to get you nowhere. Any good official in any sport is going to do what they have to in order to shut that down completely during a game.

 

[hoopsupstate]

By the way, read other teams boards. They hate the number of calls he does get. They believe the refs give him too much. Even the N.C. State coach after the game last week said that Mintz jumps in to the defender and gets the calls.

It maybe true, but why do some refs call it and others don’t? Do they have different rule books? It’s not Judah’s fault.

 

[PeteCalvin]

Players with NIL contracts are more entitled since their contracts are not tied to on court performance.

But I think a bigger issue may be Red's role change from an assistant coach to a head coach. For one thing his relationships with the players changed dramatically this year, and many of the returning players had different expectations for Red because the "bad cop" JB left. This is typical transition challenges and should settle down when Red has his own recruited roster.

This. These guys are young and used to venting to Red. It doesn’t make it right, but it will fade with time as they mature and as Red starts redefining the nature of their relationship. You won’t see this behavior with new players coming in, and Red won’t allow the current players to pass on the bad habits.

I think Red has done a great job over the past month. Getting Benny out of the locker room was a big decision that needed to be made, and the team chemistry has blossomed because of it. We actually look like a team that is executing over the past 2-3 weeks. And the fact Red has 20 wins with the garbage we’ve seen at times this season speaks to his ability to get the results. This team is both brilliant and completely frustrating at the same time. Some of it is youth and lack of experience, some laziness, some stubbornness to follow the plan, but the kids seem to be buying in now. If they could just understand when to tone it down and make the sensible play, we’d save ourselves some unnecessary turnovers and stop blowing leads.

Regardless if Mintz comes back or not, I think Red has started to blossom as a HC over the last month and am excited for his future.

 

[007]

By the way, read other teasm boards. They hate the number of calls he does get. They believe the refs give him too much. Even the N.C. State coach after the game last week sid that Mintz jumps in to the defender and gets the calls.

Yup. At the end of the day I think Judah gets way more calls to go his way than the other way around. His ability to get to the rim with speed, explosiveness, and body contortions is elite. He creates fouls - legit calls AND when he initiates the contact. It's a big part of his game. Those are tough, split second calls for most/all refs. Although I understand Judah's frustration, he absolutely "needs" to just play through ALL the calls. Especially if the talk you have heard about the refs being fed up is true (FWIW, I believe that it is).

 

[dasher]

It maybe true, but why do some refs call it and others don’t? Do they have different rule books? It’s not Judah’s fault.

They see it differently. Just like strike zones.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Your last point is right on. Also Louisville had 10 team fouls what 8 minutes into the second half. Did we hate the stripes at that point? Also the ref who Td up Judah also called charge when Mali drew it with four fouls, and that was iffy if not wrong . Stripes are more noticeable when the play is ragged and last night both teams had long stretches of ragged.
Also, interesting but irrelevant point, the guy who called the T is the guy who worked the game when Buddy punched the kid.

lousyville was fouling almsot every play...so yeah they had a lot of fouls but 2 or 3 well-timed non-calls is why a team gets a 9 or 10 point run and totally changes a game...so its not only total fouls but missing key ones that makes it unfair

 

[Brooky03]

Because it is. That's it. There is a difference between college and the pros. Not as much as there once was but it still holds. Do we bring that down to high school? Oh, and they do care about doinga good job. Do they fall short. Sure. Like every profession.

Ever watch Joey Crawford or Angel Hernandez call a game? Maybe they’re exceptions that prove the rule, but there’s zero chance those guys are/were out there trying their best.

Refs should not be emotionally fragile and should not be offended by player complaints. I’m fine with us disagreeing. I don’t see a compelling reason that complaints have to be filtered through a coach. If complaints cross a line, then issue techs.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Red was great with this. Intervene. Check. Take the corrective action. Check. Get star player calmed down. Check. Insert star back into game and win. Check. Speak to him in private post game. Assuming check.
Some of you would throw the baby out with the bath water. All of the players are still developing, physically, mentally, and emotionally. I am not a big fan or chirping at the refs, but Judah has gotten better as the year has progressed.
Let the coaches worry about it.
There is no reason not to trust Red to deal with it appropriately.

Best evaluation by far. Thank You.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You want respect, you have to give respect.

Completely separate issue.

The rulebook doesn't have separate clauses about what the rules are depending on the degree to which a referee feels they have been given respect. And for good reason.

Plus, referees and players do not have equivalent roles. The player is the competitor. The player either is involved in a losing outcome, or a winning outcome. When the game is over there's no winning or losing for a referee. They don't have the same stakes depending on how well they do their job. They just have to do their job. They also don't face an opponent that's attempting to stop them from being successful, and is attempting to be more successful than them. Maybe they'd be better at their job if they did.

So I absolutely put more responsibility on the shoulders of the refs to do their job well, and if Judah is getting fouled, and they're swallowing the whistle because they don't like Judah, they're failing at their job, and may lack the emotionally maturity to do their job.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

By the way, read other teams boards.

Gonna have to take a hard, hard pass on that one.

 

[br801]

Very odd looking play. My sense at the time was that judah thought he was fouled, and instead of complaining to the ref he complained to red about the refs. Something like “coach ive been getting fouled all game and theyre not calling it!” I just think he was frustrated at the refs, there were 2 or 3 plays before that play that u could tell by his body language he thought he was fouled.

I think Red preferred to have Judah directing his attention at him, rather than at the ref at that point, as Judah likely would have been teed up a second time and disqualified if he had continued barking at the officials.

 

[DuxburyO]

Good luck ever being a top 20 team in the future if you aren’t going to pay up in todays game

“paying up” didn’t seem to help WV. *

* - yes I know WV had other issues and Jesse got hurt.

 

[Col. Bleep]

How many years were we in the top 20 with Jesse? I wish he would have stayed as much as the next guy. But we couldn't match his price. That is also business. Because if we did, WVU would have just raised that number. We going to keep playing that game?

You raise the key issue: it's a $$ game now.
Not that much different than the NBA.
And - taking the Jesse situation out of it - one way or the other every team that wants to compete will have to play and pay.

Of course the school itself doesn't do the deal...the booster organizations shell out on their own (wink wink).
And its only getting more money-focused now that players can negotiate before deciding to join a team.

The link between a team and a school gets ever more tenuous.
Loyalty? Education?
Becoming little more than a name on a jersey.

 

[Red Holzman]

How many years were we in the top 20 with Jesse? I wish he would have stayed as much as the next guy. But we couldn't match his price. That is also business. Because if we did, WVU would have just raised that number. We going to keep playing that game?

Any poker players help manage the NIL $$$?
An opportunity to have fun and bid it up at WVU's expense!?!
High Stakes Gambling -play the NIL Madness against them to pull out the rug and line Jesse's pockets LOL!

 

[Dcuse]

It maybe true, but why do some refs call it and others don’t? Do they have different rule books? It’s not Judah’s fault.

Try reffing a basketball game sometime…any level. Then tell me how easy it is.

 

[dasher]

Ever watch Joey Crawford or Angel Hernandez call a game? Maybe they’re exceptions that prove the rule, but there’s zero chance those guys are/were out there trying their best.

Refs should not be emotionally fragile and should not be offended by player complaints. I’m fine with us disagreeing. I don’t see a compelling reason that complaints have to be filtered through a coach. If complaints cross a line, then issue techs.

Sadly, I have watched Joey Crawford and Angel Hernandez work games.

 

[Bayside44]

Sadly, I have watched Joey Crawford and Angel Hernandez work games.

You call what Angel Hernandez does "work"?