Is Boeheim Serious???

[SoBeCuse]

My point is that they were shooting the ball well overall so maybe "tweaking" the zone wasn't the issue. Maybe they just make more mid range jumpers.

We cant get separation from mediocre teams because, get this, we are a mediocre team. Except for our defense.

Pretty much. I had a good view of the shot clock with great seats behind the basket. I kept on saying/yelling “Come on, come on, let’s go” numerous times as our offense would stall out so much. It’s inevitable if you hound these guards.

 

[TheCusian]

Reads complaints about zone.

Checks Arizona State’s scoring avg.

Checks score of game.






Bwahahahaha

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable post by "our fans" saying it was a fluke when we win Friday.

 

[Waltdods]

Probably had zero to do with us running the shot clock down to 2 seconds every possession. You're obviously a Board legend but I'm not sure why this is the post you decide to make when defending our zone.

I also give our zone credit, and acknowledge it's good, but could use some modernization to the current game. Clearly PPG are all that matters and playing Butler '10 tournament style run out the clock basketball on offense has nothing to do with it

Other posters have pointed out that (1) Syracuse's defensive efficiency numbers are top-1o (or 11) in the country, which has nothing to do with pace, and (2) that Syracuse held Arizona State way below its typical per-possession points, which again has nothing to do with pace. You don't need to look at PPG numbers to see that Syracuse's defense is among the best in the country.

The more subtle version of your argument, that Syracuse could go from an excellent defense to a presumably unstoppable one if it just did this one weird trick, is not much better. In a 30+ game season, every team is going to have a couple games where opposing teams hit a ton of shots - a 30% shooter is sometimes going to hit 60% of his shots. Pointing at the BC game and saying this should never happen is just ignoring the probabilistic nature of the game.

 

[longislandcuse]

Other posters have pointed out that (1) Syracuse's defensive efficiency numbers are top-1o (or 11) in the country, which has nothing to do with pace, and (2) that Syracuse held Arizona State way below its typical per-possession points, which again has nothing to do with pace. You don't need to look at PPG numbers to see that Syracuse's defense is among the best in the country.

The more subtle version of your argument, that Syracuse could go from an excellent defense to a presumably unstoppable one if it just did this one weird trick, is not much better. In a 30+ game season, every team is going to have a couple games where opposing teams hit a ton of shots - a 30% shooter is sometimes going to hit 60% of his shots. Pointing at the BC game and saying this should never happen is just ignoring the probabilistic nature of the game.

It's not a "weird trick" lol. It's just analytics and adjusting the zone to take away AAU ball.

 

[realorange]

Didn't get to read this thread until this morning. Good thing because I wouldn't have slept well. Pretty sad takes by many.

Very plain that JB told Frank to miss. He was upset because Frank didn't do as he was told. Should he have done it on the court after a win----No. But player disobeys coach, he's going to hear about it. Doesn't matter whether we thought it a good plan or not.

The rest of the thread could have been said in a couple of pages. Good zone, but maybe could have had a few teawks. OK

By the way for those who weren't watching close, they showed a clip of Tyus having his toe on the 3 pt. line.

We won a tournament game that at the beginning of the season most of us would have given little chance to ever be in such a position.

As the reggae lyric goes "Don't worry, be happy"

 

[HOFCeluck]

It's not a "weird trick" lol. It's just analytics and adjusting the zone to take away AAU ball.

"Analytics" = H0T Takes and fixing what's not broken.

 

[JoeSU]

Pretty much. I had a good view of the shot clock with great seats behind the basket. I kept on saying/yelling “Come on, come on, let’s go” numerous times as our offense would stall out so much. It’s inevitable if you hound these guards.

I thought it was fairly obvious that our primary game plan was to try to slow down the pace that ASU likes to play at, by milking the shot clock. I agree though, that our offense tends to get stagnant when doing so.

 

[JoeSU]

chewy ran up from about half court if i recall correctly. had he not it would've been another 5 second call.

frank and tyus must never have been taught in their elementary school gym classes how a pick is used to get open.

Yep. And JB had something to say about it to Battle and Howard as they walked up the court. It was obvious that in-bounding to Chewy wasn't JB's intent.

 

[chugg21]

Didn't get to read this thread until this morning. Good thing because I wouldn't have slept well. Pretty sad takes by many.

Very plain that JB told Frank to miss. He was upset because Frank didn't do as he was told. Should he have done it on the court after a win----No. But player disobeys coach, he's going to hear about it. Doesn't matter whether we thought it a good plan or not.

The rest of the thread could have been said in a couple of pages. Good zone, but maybe could have had a few teawks. OK

By the way for those who weren't watching close, they showed a clip of Tyus having his toe on the 3 pt. line.

We won a tournament game that at the beginning of the season most of us would have given little chance to ever be in such a position.

As the reggae lyric goes "Don't worry, be happy"

Saw the clip of the toe on the line on the one in the 1st half, not the one down the stretch.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Jennifer Garner is still really hot.

Very underrated beauty imo.

 

[CusefanATL]

The sad part is he won’t admit he was confused at the presser. He’ll say something snarky and 100% innacurate. that was a horrible moment

i was texting my buddy Brian Levenson, fellow Cuse Grad, and a sports psychologist (who actually worked with Franks high school as he was starting out in industry while Frank was a jr/sr) last night about the whole thing...

We even talked about Boeheim apologizing to Frank about it and my reaction was "no way boeheim apologizes for it. hes apologized less than 10x in his entire life."

Intentional Performers with Brian Levenson (The Podcast) - shameless plug. but great podcast and if you missed the post a few weeks ago, he had an amazing convo with Hakim Warrick that is very cuse oriented.

 

[OttoMets]

You don't have any way of knowing the zone kept us in the game. The only time they kept it close in the first half then got the lead in the second half was off banging open threes after we inevitably collapsed on a guy who clearly didn't want to shoot a mid-range jump shot or a midget guard started driving with no intentions of trying to attack our 7'2 Center.

I think our zone could be filthy if the guards paid no mind to a guard getting past them or a 3/4/5 catching a pass at the high post. Obviously deny, but if they get the ball there, force them to make a quick decision. You can't just hang out there offensively and players aren't used to A) Having the ball there and B) Shooting from there. Also C) It's tough to grab momentum off a couple 2 point jump shots.

With our length, if we geared the zone to stop modern day AAU emphasis (Dunks/3 pointers) and encouraged awkward 2 point jumpers, we could have a top ranked defense every year, in every category. This is one of our best defensive teams yet we still allow a ton of open threes and players to duck behind the Center.

Pace of play also greatly factors into our defensive efficiency ratings. PPG are low, limited possessions and teams get antsy. Remember us vs Butler in 2010? We're like 10x worse than that. Every time down the court you can go to the bathroom, microwave some food and let the dog out before we take a shot.

I admire the reasoning. It's too bad that a handful of people engage you but aren't willing to actually discuss the points you're making. In my opinion you're contributing a whole lot more than they are in this thread.

However, in my opinion again, you might be overlooking the point of the guard collapsing on the entry pass to the key. It's not the mid-range jumper that Boeheim's concerned about, I don't think, but instead the problem is that player's ability to drive or pass when Chukwu (a guy who's obviously banged up and moves pretty mechanically anyway) has to step up there. And we saw what happened a few times when that happened last night - mostly quick passes to the post for dunks.

With a more mobile center (Baye Keita, for instance), you could trust him to be left on an island without guard help. On this team, against most opponents, we need the guards to collapse because our back line loses track of cutters when the center's forced to move to the ball.

I thought they did a pretty good job last night, and I'd be quick to say so if I thought the zone came up short. Frank was sick, maybe not at the top of his defensive game, but he did OK. Ducked under a screen at least once. That wasn't good. And ASU did miss a couple wide-open looks. But mostly the guards pushed out their shooters well and did a decent job collapsing as well. Battle had a 28-foot set shot made over him, but they can take those all day as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CA Monk]

I wonder if anyone but Boeheim could've gotten as much out of this offensively challenged squad. He is not their chummy friend like the back-slapping assistants. The players know they're going to be called out if they fail to follow what's been practiced. He immediately presents his players with their deficiencies and tells them to do otherwise. It ain't perfect, but it's generally effective. Few coaches are able to get beyond the tacit coddling stage with players. JB's brutal honesty doesn't always work, but it's overall refreshing and makes the team better...IMHO. Without catankerous Boeheim's scolding ways they may not have made the NIT.

 

[rrlbees]

Probably had zero to do with us running the shot clock down to 2 seconds every possession. You're obviously a Board legend but I'm not sure why this is the post you decide to make when defending our zone.

I also give our zone credit, and acknowledge it's good, but could use some modernization to the current game. Clearly PPG are all that matters and playing Butler '10 tournament style run out the clock basketball on offense has nothing to do with it

Us playing slow ball played a role in them not scoring their season average PPG. But it was 27 under. AND, we held them under their season FG%, under their season 3pt FG% and season points per possession. Those 3 things have nothing to do with our pace. It was great defense.

 

[Waltdods]

I admire the reasoning. It's too bad that a handful of people engage you but aren't willing to actually discuss the points you're making. In my opinion you're contributing a whole lot more than they are in this thread.

However, in my opinion again, you might be overlooking the point of the guard collapsing on the entry pass to the key. It's not the mid-range jumper that Boeheim's concerned about, I don't think, but instead the problem is that player's ability to drive or pass when Chukwu (a guy who's obviously banged up and moves pretty mechanically anyway) has to step up there. And we saw what happened a few times when that happened last night - mostly quick passes to the post for dunks.

With a more mobile center (Baye Keita, for instance), you could trust him to be left on an island without guard help. On this team, against most opponents, we need the guards to collapse because our back line loses track of cutters when the center's forced to move to the ball.

I thought they did a pretty good job last night, and I'd be quick to say so if I thought the zone came up short. Frank was sick, maybe not at the top of his defensive game, but he did OK. Ducked under a screen at least once. That wasn't good. And ASU did miss a couple wide-open looks. But mostly the guards pushed out their shooters well and did a decent job collapsing as well. Battle had a 28-foot set shot made over him, but they can take those all day as far as I'm concerned.

I mostly agree with this. The problem with the we-can-be-better-than-great argument is that it ignores the second-order effects of changing a scheme that is working very, very well, which you've described here well.

 

[longislandcuse]

I mostly agree with this. The problem with the we-can-be-better-than-great argument is that it ignores the second-order effects of changing a scheme that is working very, very well, which you've described here well.

You can't stop everything, especially as OttoMets pointed out with a hobbled C rotation. I'm of the philosophy that in a perfect world, let our Center hedge up enough to make the player take a contested shot but not too far that he leaves the backline open. If the tradeoff right now is Chukwu stays at the basket and the high post player has a wide open mid-range jumper, I'll take it, because if the guards or wings collapse down to help, it tends to leave an open 3 point shooter.

Again, I'll point out, that's not to say we have a bad defense. We don't. We're good and pace of play helps. However, with our offense, our defense needs to be elite...and I think it could be with that adaptation. For the future, an even higher ceiling with a few other tweaks that have been discussed but lack of bodies affects.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

Much better to turn it over than to have a guy shooting 70% from the line over the last three months be in position to be a safety valve. Crazy stuff!

Mister I can catch and hold on to a basketball better than anyone. No one could steal it from me.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

It's not a "weird trick" lol. It's just analytics and adjusting the zone to take away AAU ball.

ASU scored 92 on Kansas State, 102 on Xavier, 95 on Kansas, and 78 on Arizona. This team scores a ton of points. The only team ASU had a hard time scoring on was Washington-64 points, who plays a similar zone. We held them to 56 points. That's great defense.

 

[AZOrange]

The defense was absolutely fine though I was sure the Evans 3 was going to go down once he got himself a clean look.

I'm just still amazed that we are running the Chukwu PnR 90% of the trips down the court. We literally never hit him rolling and the other team does not switch it. I don't really understand what the thought process is behind using it as our primary set. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to run it with Oshae and maybe be able to get pick and pop 3s out of it or would we just have 0 spacing for any kind of drive with Marek, Chukwu and their defenders all clogging the lane? Guess we might need a 4 in the corner that is even a little bit of a threat from 3 for that to really work.

The only explanation is a lane clear out but it doesn’t work so...

 

[dasher]

Again, nowhere do I say we play bad defense. We don't.

I'm saying we could play it much better, and even in a down year, not lose to BC and be in a nail biter against a terrible PAC team from a terrible conference, who's been terrible for the last few months.

Some of our defensive numbers are a result of dragging teams into an all out snail race rock fight every game. Some of our numbers are because we're a good defensive team. We could also be better defensively with two or three minor tweaks. Those tweaks would make it so perimeter oriented teams like ASU and BC don't get to capitalize on the only chance they have to beat us/give us a scare.

That's all I'm saying.

B.C. beat Duke. But go right back to your rant

 

[Jake]

Probably had zero to do with us running the shot clock down to 2 seconds every possession. You're obviously a Board legend but I'm not sure why this is the post you decide to make when defending our zone.

I also give our zone credit, and acknowledge it's good, but could use some modernization to the current game. Clearly PPG are all that matters and playing Butler '10 tournament style run out the clock basketball on offense has nothing to do with it

I have no problem with people saying they wish we played a different defense, but to choose this particular game to criticize the zone is odd.

Pace of game certainly played a role. But the zone slows teams down every possession as well.

 

[NineOneSeven]

But the point is, JB told him to miss and he didn’t.

The fact townie liked this post just shows how much of a sheep he is. Townie could be part of the manson family the way he is convinced every single action JB does is the one and only way.

Sad.

 

[xc84]

Very plain that JB told Frank to miss. He was upset because Frank didn't do as he was told. Should he have done it on the court after a win----No. But player disobeys coach, he's going to hear about it. Doesn't matter whether we thought it a good plan or not.

I agree. If he tells a player to miss...he's gotta miss (while still hitting the rim of course)!

I have to say though that as a coach, I seem to make some when I intend to miss (for rebounding drills).

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Didn't get to read this thread until this morning. Good thing because I wouldn't have slept well. Pretty sad takes by many.

Very plain that JB told Frank to miss. He was upset because Frank didn't do as he was told. Should he have done it on the court after a win----No. But player disobeys coach, he's going to hear about it. Doesn't matter whether we thought it a good plan or not.

The rest of the thread could have been said in a couple of pages. Good zone, but maybe could have had a few teawks. OK

By the way for those who weren't watching close, they showed a clip of Tyus having his toe on the 3 pt. line.

We won a tournament game that at the beginning of the season most of us would have given little chance to ever be in such a position.

As the reggae lyric goes "Don't worry, be happy"

If he did tell him to miss, that's stupid. Make it and up 4. Win. Miss it and time runs out. Win.