Is JAB our Dave Winfield?

[longislandcuse]

I said in another thread that we are the UGA of CBB and JB is Mark Richt.

 

[doc05]

Is there anything wrong with wanting to eat cake but have it not go to our hips? (Am I right, ladies?!)

Born and raised in -- and a frequent returner to (I currently live in DC) -- CNY, I howl at the area's collective idea that the grass is always greener elsewhere and that they deserve Syracuse victories. 100% of cities larger than Syracuse would love their local college to be as successful in basketball. Be critical all you want -- but also don't realize how lucky you are to be Orange.

The thing is, Syracuse is (or is supposed to be for all intensive purposes) a national brand. At the very least, the program is marketed as "New York's College Team". I'm not saying you can't be absolutely content with the success the program has had (because you can be). But there is no reason to go on the offensive against fans that think the bar can be set higher.

Who cares? I don't have an inferiority complex about college basketball and definitely don't care what a uconn fan thinks. I've seen fans of lower level programs whine that we get calls because we're a blueblood. There are a lot of different perceptions.

I'm not saying one should or should not care. I'm just saying it's there regardless, which seems to be the point of the thread.

 

[Orangedawg]

Is there anything wrong with wanting to eat cake but have it not go to our hips? (Am I right, ladies?!)

Born and raised in -- and a frequent returner to (I currently live in DC) -- CNY, I howl at the area's collective idea that the grass is always greener elsewhere and that they deserve Syracuse victories. 100% of cities larger than Syracuse would love their local college to be as successful in basketball. Be critical all you want -- but also don't realize how lucky you are to be Orange.

Born and raised myself, and a fan since Chris 'Rocket Man' Sease from Nottingham High (my alma mater) played for SU (also my alma mater). And my observation over many years is that some fans in CNY are grateful and satisfied for whatever the team achieves. I think with the talent we've had, the Dome, the exposure etc. we have right as fans to expect more.

 

[Todd Gack]

The thing is, Syracuse is (or is supposed to be for all intensive purposes) a national brand. At the very least, the program is marketed as "New York's College Team". I'm not saying you can't be absolutely content with the success the program has had (because you can be). But there is no reason to go on the offensive against fans that think the bar can be set higher.



I'm not saying one should or should not care. I'm just saying it's there regardless, which seems to be the point of the thread.

For future reference, most people tune out after one says "intensive purposes" -- Google the reason why -- but this is such low-hanging fruit I can't help but respond. Whose program do you think we're better than?

 

[NKR1978]

Born and raised myself, and a fan since Chris 'Rocket Man' Sease from Nottingham a High (my alma mater) played for SU (also my alma mater). And my observation over many years is that some fans in CNY are grateful and satisfied for whatever the team achieves. I think with the talent we've had, the Dome, the exposure etc. we have right as fans to expect more.

So instead of a top 15 program and a top 15 all time coach, you won't be satisfied unless we are Kentucky/Kansas/Duke? I would love more Final Fours and titles, but there's no guarantee that this is going to last.

 

[doc05]

Maybe it's because I'm approaching my 36th birthday -- and am raging against the dying of the light -- but I'd like to think I'm above caring how others think I should feel. If you're embarrassed by the program, I can help you find the door.

OK Mr. "English Major" - When did I say I was embarrassed in this thread? Saying a perception is out there (whether right or wrong) makes one "embarrassed" so that you can show me the door as a fan? HAHA Please...

 

[doc05]

So instead of a top 15 program and a top 15 all time coach, you won't be satisfied unless we are Kentucky/Kansas/Duke? I would love more Final Fours and titles, but there's no guarantee that this is going to last.

I don't disagree with you at all here - but there is nothing wrong with a fan wanting more hardware, especially at the level the program has come to.

 

[Todd Gack]

Born and raised myself, and a fan since Chris 'Rocket Man' Sease from Nottingham High (my alma mater) played for SU (also my alma mater). And my observation over many years is that some fans in CNY are grateful and satisfied for whatever the team achieves. I think with the talent we've had, the Dome, the exposure etc. we have right as fans to expect more.

What is "more"? What do you honestly think Syracuse deserves?

I am convinced that you can insert a "Seinfeld" reference into any conversation -- SU alum's "West Wing" isn't far behind. In one of the best scenes from the early years, Jed Bartlet drops "You get Hoynes." It was meant as a slight to God. JB is hardly worthy of deification -- but who do you think is better? I forget how many rings Jay Wright has won -- inform me.

 

[Orangedawg]

↑
So instead of a top 15 program and a top 15 all time coach, you won't be satisfied unless we are Kentucky/Kansas/Duke? I would love more Final Fours and titles, but there's no guarantee that this is going to last.

I don't disagree with you at all here - but there is nothing wrong with a fan wanting more hardware, especially at the level the program has come to.

Exactly. It's great that we are a Top 15 program with a top 15 coach. What's wrong in feeling we could/should be a Kentucky/Kansas/Duke?

 

[Orangedawg]

What is "more"? What do you honestly think Syracuse deserves?

A bit more than you obviously.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I have posted this before but there is something with Boeheim and the sweet 16. He has made 17 sweet 16's in 38 years which if you think about is amazing but is 6-11 in those games. I have always been puzzled why this is. Meanwhile Pitino is perfect in the sweet 16.

 

[Todd Gack]

There's nothing wrong with "feeling" anything -- it's when you put pen to paper, so to speak, that people can rightfully call you ridiculous.

 

[Ozcuse]

I have posted this before but there is something with Boeheim and the sweet 16. He has made 17 sweet 16's in 38 years which if you think about is amazing but is 6-11 in those games. I have always been puzzled why this is. Meanwhile Pitino is perfect in the sweet 16.

You are probably going to get a pretty tough matchup that has almost a week to gameplan the zone. I bet we have a pretty decent record in the Elite 8.

 

[Orangedawg]

I have posted this before but there is something with Boeheim and the sweet 16. He has made 17 sweet 16's in 38 years which if you think about is amazing but is 6-11 in those games. I have always been puzzled why this is. Meanwhile Pitino is perfect in the sweet 16.

And Louisville who didn't look so good earlier in the year, is looking very good now...

 

[Coach Orange]

Coach Don Meyer says that, "If you want to win in November, run plays, run patterns. If you want to win in March, run motion."

His rationale is that plays/patterned offenses work well early because all five guys "know" where to go and what to do; in other words, the patterns build cohesion into the offense. However, he points out that players also don't develop as well throughout the season in terms of "how to play the game" because they just carry out their prescribed movements. As set-play/patterned-offense teams get deeper into their schedules, opponents can scout the patterns and devise strategies for taking those movements away or forcing the ball out of the best players' hands.

Syracuse runs an NBA-styled set-play offense. As such, it often looks better early in the season as other teams are still trying to gel offensively and defensively. The team's infamously "easy" early season schedules increase the beneficial effects that set plays provide. However, as the season progresses, other teams continue improving on both ends of the floor. They start using various strategies to disrupt the set plays--ball pressure, face guarding, overplays, sagging defenses, playing zone, playing off of a weak post player, etc.

To counter these strategies, set plays need to have multiple reads built into them. For example, what should Cooney do if his defender is overplaying? What if his defender attempts to cheat a screen knowing where Cooney should end up in the pattern? What should Cooney do if Christmas's defender hedges to help on a screen? Will Christmas and Cooney read the situation the same way?

In addition, set plays need to have multiple options. If the defense takes away the first read (for example, Fair catching the ball on the perimeter after coming off of a single-double down screen sequence), the offense should be able to go to a second (for example, a UCLA back screen for Ennis), third (for example, a ball screen for Fair), or fourth option (for example, a stagger screen for Cooney). Watch good NBA offenses--they often work through several options before isolating a scorer towards the end of the shot clock.

However, to use these counters (reads and options), players have to learn them and practice them repeatedly in the hopes that they all remember and can execute their responsibilities in carrying them out. This takes time and patience. As a result, some years we counter these strategies better than others depending on how effectively the players develop their technical and tactical skills.

The lack of player movement and ball movement suggests that our players aren't developing quickly enough this season. Of course, this is compounded by the fact that we are not a strong shooting squad this season, and our best "scorer" is really best suited as a second or third option.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

Without question. Very hard. My point is: what is keeping our coach from achieving that top tier status and our program from breaking through to that 'blue blood' level?

JB is a very good coach who has built a very good program. IMO, for us to reach elite status, here is what his successor needs to do ('cause JB ain't gonna change):

First, instill a killer instinct in the players. Encourage them to play with more swagger, more confidence. Don't play to not lose, to not make mistakes - play to win with aggression and confidence. When you get a team down, step on their necks and beat them into submission. Don't aim the ball, shoot it like you practice, like you KNOW it's going in. Snarl on a tough rebound. Scream when you block a shot, or slam one in. Make a quick offensive move like you KNOW you are going to score. Our players absolutely don't do any of those, because that is frowned on by JB as being disrespectful.

Second, play more players more often. That's how they learn, that's how they get hungry to play. Maybe if CJ or Cooney knew there was someone else to play if they weren't cutting it, they'd be more wary and less apt to get into these multi-game funks. Plus, recruits see they are going to play when it counts makes them want to come here. If I'm a 4 1/2 star recruit, and I see Buss and BJ and TR never playing, I'm going to lean somewhere else where I can at least feel like part of the team.

 

[Todd Gack]

OK Mr. "English Major" - When did I say I was embarrassed in this thread? Saying a perception is out there (whether right or wrong) makes one "embarrassed" so that you can show me the door as a fan? HAHA Please...

Since you're big on quotation marks -- however poorly used (why not include "Mr."?) -- I never quoted you as "embarrassed," but did characterize your perception. Are you sheepish -- is that better for you -- at the claim?

 

[JoeSU]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

To quote Jimmy Dugan in A League of Their Own:
"The hard is what makes it great".

 

[JoeSU]

Seeing that we're coming off an Elite 8/Final Four the last 2 years, probably not.

Not to mention the Onuaku (2010) and Melo (2012) years, which IMO were Final 4 caliber teams (and please don't blame JB for AO's injury or Melo's academic issues).
It amazes me that some myopic fans don't realize what a helluva run JB has this program on.

 

[Coach Orange]

Second, play more players more often. That's how they learn, that's how they get hungry to play. Maybe if CJ or Cooney knew there was someone else to play if they weren't cutting it, they'd be more wary and less apt to get into these multi-game funks. Plus, recruits see they are going to play when it counts makes them want to come here. If I'm a 4 1/2 star recruit, and I see Buss and BJ and TR never playing, I'm going to lean somewhere else where I can at least feel like part of the team.

This is where running more motion offense could help.

Instead of inserting Square Peg A into Round Hole B (e.g. Fair as the "primary scoring option" in several plays despite his offensive limitations), motion allows players to develop their skill sets within certain rules or guidelines. This means as players develop their skills, they don't have to be inserted into the prescribed patterns of the offense. Instead, they can employ the skills within the guidelines for the offense. This allows players to contribute meaningfully earlier in their careers.

For example, you can tell a player that can't shoot from the outside that, when he is cutting off of a down screen, he should only shoot when curling off of them. When he catches on the perimeter, he should only look to drive, pass to the post, or reverse the ball. He should also utilize back screens or cut backdoor against overplays as much as possible. Notice that this player doesn't have to stay within the prescribed movements of a pattern to be effective.

Roberson is a pertinent example of how a set-play offense can limit players early in their careers. After watching the GT game, it seems that his inability to understand and execute his responsibilities within several of our set plays is a factor in why he is not getting more playing time. Perhaps if we were running a motion offense, he could see the floor more regularly by this point in the season.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I love the way these threads inevitably devolve into defensive, passive aggressive responses.
Usually the focus turns to whether one should be "happy with what we have in JB and the program", versus "we should expect more from this caliber of program".
Personally, I believe that JB's coaching and philosophy regarding the bench, and sometimes the 2-3, could stand some tweaking. Not necessarily on an overall change everything basis, but definitely on a game-to-game basis.
This year especially, I feel he has driven this team into the ground, rendered whatever bench relief he might have had available null-&-void, and been waaaay too predictable on both offense and defense.
Cue the "yes, but he can't make Cooney hit 3-pters or BMK hold on to the ball" chorus...which is really besides the point in this debate. We've had almost 40 years of case study about JB & the SU program. If I were to assign a grade I'd give us a B/B-, in that we're a top program, but we can do waaay better than what we have shown, w/ plenty of room for improvement.
Why that should become a "you called JB a bum", or " you don't know how good we have it", perspective is based more on the perception of those responding, rather than the points being made. JMHO

Note: IMO, JB is more of a Don Coryell, Chuck Knox, or better yet, Bill Cowher. These were NFL HC's who won consistently, often w/ innovative offenses & defenses, but often fizzled out in the playoffs. Cowher especially rebuilt the Steelers franchise, had some heartbreaking losses, and eventually broke through and won his Supe.

 

[doc05]

Since you're big on quotation marks -- however poorly used (why not include "Mr."?) -- I never quoted you as "embarrassed," but did characterize your perception. Are you sheepish -- is that better for you -- at the claim?

You are amusing - using an internet fan message board as a means to participate in a game of meaningless semantics, in a futile attempt to "(gosh - quotation marks lol) one up" your perceived "(again!) opponent". Pretty telling if you ask me. What's especially telling is your attempt to sidetrack the point of this thread with irrelevant (and clearly childish) banter. Clearly, when "(this is fun!) putting the pen to the paper", you fail to properly address the points made in the OP's defense. Of course, your "(one more time!) small town" mentality - where JB can apparently do no wrong - will keep you from looking at things objectively.

So go log off, tuck yourself in, and keep convincing yourself that you look "(last time - I swear)intelligent" in this thread. Of course, you will be the only one here thinking that.

 

[doc05]

Not to mention the Onuaku (2010) and Melo (2012) years, which IMO were Final 4 caliber teams (and please don't blame JB for AO's injury or Melo's academic issues).
It amazes me that some myopic fans don't realize what a helluva run JB has this program on.

Just MHO on 2010 and 2012 - take it for what it's worth.

Both Final 4 caliber teams - but neither made it, and that's all that matters to many. The 2010 team should have beat Butler without Onuaku. Did it make the game tougher? Of course. Should a good team use it as an excuse with the pieces that were still there? In my opinion, no. And if I remember correctly that year, the team got blitzed by Louisville in the last game of the season, and lost to Georgetown in the first game of the BE tourney, with Onuaku playing most of the game. Who is to say they were going to go into the tourney guns blazing? An argument can be made that the team was also on a downward spiral. With respect to 2012, I do think the team would have made the final four with Fab. But with the way the EE games was being officiated, you really just can't say for sure. And let's not forget they did lose to Cinci in the first game of the BE tourney - with Fab.

 

[longislandcuse]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

Omg... Seriously? "It's hard to win in the tournament". Lol ok...

Is your son the "Good effort" kid?

 

[doc05]

Omg... Seriously? "It's hard to win in the tournament". Lol ok...

Is your son the "Good effort" kid?

Be careful, you used quotation marks!