Melodramatic absolutely owning Lebron

[KingOtis]

The LeBron hate is brought on by expectations everyone else had for him, it's not like he asked for it. What he did in Cleveland with pretty much no talent around him is incredible. People look at him and think he should have 4 titles by now.

Why hasn't Durant come under that kind of scrutiny? LeBron went to the Finals in his 2nd year; Durant hasn't even sniffed them and he's in his 5th year. Not to mention that team is loaded.

The self-proclaimed "King" didn't ask for it? Please...

James did not go to the Finals his second year. He didn't even make the playoffs.

The East was weak for a good portion of James' time in Cleveland. By the time it caught up with the West, James had more than enough talent around him to achieve more than he did.

 

[EastCoast2]

Did you hear them talk about how Baron Davis can't even dunk anymore

 

[jdubs30]

Yeah I agree. Let's take away Kobe's first 3 rings because he was playing with the best center in the league. Kobe should have left LA and gone to the Hornets. What a wuss. What a sell-out.

And when Durant inevitably wins one, we will never hear "but he plays with Russell Westbrook and James Harden"; Pippen was a top 50 player of all time.

I get that LeBron CHOSE to go to Miami with DWade and Bosh; but does anyone see Durant leaving OKC just because Westbrook is there and therefore he won't get the credit he deserves?

There is way too much talent in this league to win one by yourself (although what Dirk did last year was amazing). Kobe has never won a title unless he's had a top 5 C with him.

 

[EastCoast2]

The Eastern conference was equivalent to the SEC West up until a few years ago, right around the time KG & Co. went to Boston and started the shift

 

[EastCoast2]

Kobe has never won a title unless he's had a top 5 C with him.

And his last two he's done with 2 of the 5 best centers

 

[jdubs30]

The self-proclaimed "King" didn't ask for it? Please...

James did not go to the Finals his second year. He didn't even make the playoffs.

The East was weak for a good portion of James' time in Cleveland. By the time it caught up with the West, James had more than enough talent around him to achieve more than he did.

Maybe after all the HS hoopla (but that was as media-driven as anything), but I feel like he's been fairly humble since he's been in the league (save the decision)

I'm pretty sure he did.

He was still a 20 year old kid who lead his team to the NBA Finals, I don't care how weak the East was.

"More than enough talent". Do you mean Baron Davis and Wallly Szcerbiak? Larry Hughes? Michel Redd? Mo Williams and Anderson Vareajo? Antwan Jamison? Please, he had nothing in Cleveland; Melo had way more help in Denver and they never did in the playoffs

 

[EastCoast2]

"More than enough talent". Do you mean Baron Davis and Wallly Szcerbiak? Larry Hughes? Michel Redd? Mo Williams and Anderson Vareajo? Antwan Jamison? Please, he had nothing in Cleveland; Melo had way more help in Denver and they never did in the playoffs

From 2003 to about 2010 the team that finished 8th in the West would have finished 4th in the East

 

[KingOtis]

Yes, he is the best player in the NBA. And if you want to make an argument for Durant...that's about as close as you can get. The fact that you even mentioned Kobe...let alone called him better...says it all. And then using Melo as the comparison for what he did against the Bulls. Sorry, but Melo is nowhere near what LeBron is and if you want to talk about what they respectively did against the Bulls...LeBron shut Derrick Rose down in the playoffs. Not a regular season game.

The Cavs won 17 games before LeBron. 35 in his rookie season.
Scored 35 in 8 or nine games (believe only Jordan and Kobe have done that in the modern era)
Took the Cavs to the finals after being down 0-2 with a 48 point performance.

08-09: #1 in Win Shares
09-10: #1 in Win Shares
10-11: #1 in Win Shares
11-12: #1 in Win Shares
05-06: #2 in Win Shares
06-07: #2 in Win Shares
07-08: #2 in Win Shares

Neither Durant (but he will someday) nor Kobe nor Howard have ever led the league in that category (even 1 time) and the best Bryant has ever been is 4th).

#1 in the league in PER: 07-08, 08-09, 09-10, 10-11, 11-12. Kobe has never been higher than third and in the 6 year stretch he was only in the top 5 twice.

3X 1st Team Defense. Dwight came in the league in 04 and LeBron 03. They have been 1st Team NBA Defense three times each.

If you were starting a team it would make sense to start with LeBron or maybe Durant. Anything else would be ridiculous.

44cuse

Playing great defense doesn't make him a clutch player. He's Scottie Pippen now, whoop-de-damn-do.

All I said about Melo is that he's a clutch player who has never missed the playoffs. He holds those two things over James.

Sorry, I haven't bought into John Hollinger...

We've already seen what happens when you build a team around James.

 

[EastCoast2]

There were consistently 45-37 teams finishing 9th in the West and missing the playoffs while a team in the East would get the 6 seed with a 40-42 record

 

[Knicks411]

He was still a 20 year old kid who lead his team to the NBA Finals, I don't care how weak the East was.

He wasn't, he didn't make the finals till 2007, at the ripe old age of 22.

Though yes, I agree his supporting cast in Cleveland was awful. Who was the second best player he played with? Big Z?

 

[Ward]

The self-proclaimed "King" didn't ask for it? Please...

James did not go to the Finals his second year. He didn't even make the playoffs.

The East was weak for a good portion of James' time in Cleveland. By the time it caught up with the West, James had more than enough talent around him to achieve more than he did.

You're totally right Otis, so much talent on those Cleveland teams. His supporting cast really proved to everyone they didn't need LeBron last year when they went from having one of the best records in the NBA to the worst or one of the worst.

Great argument strategy, whenever someone proves us wrong we'll just claim it was fixed by the NBA and was a big conspiracy.

Last but not least, you're insulting him for being the "self proclaimed king", are you aware you're handle is KingOtis?

 

[jdubs30]

Playing great defense doesn't make him a clutch player. He's Scottie Pippen now, whoop-de-damn-do.

All I said about Melo is that he's a clutch player who has never missed the playoffs. He holds those two things over James.

Sorry, I haven't bought into John Hollinger...

We've already seen what happens when you build a team around James.

Carmelo has won an amazing 2 playoff series. LeBron won more than that last year alone.

 

[KingOtis]

This is why I think people who get on Bron about "taking the easy way out" by going to Miami are dumb. He doesn't care about being the #1, he just wants to win. Kobe and Jordan wanted to be the guy, no matter what; James just isn't wired that way although his talent dictates he SHOULD be. He's more like Magic than he is like Jordan.

I think LeBron likes taking the last shot, but if he someone like James Jones open in the corner, he'll pass it, and get criticized for it; while Kobe will shoot over 3 guys while fading away, and somehow gets more credit.

If James liked taking the last shot, he would take it more. And your first paragraph proves why he isn't the best player in the league.

 

[Knicks411]

All I said about Melo is that he's a clutch player who has never missed the playoffs. He holds those two things over James.

Does anyone really care about this? Lebron went to a really bad team in his first 2 years. They won 17 games the year before he got there. (As did Denver in 03, fwiw, but they added Andre Miller and got 50 more games out of Marcus Camby). But does anyone really care that Melo's teams were better the first year in the league?

Melo's clutch numbers are fantastic though. Small sample size or not, he has that over pretty much every guy in the league.

 

[KingOtis]

Yeah I agree. Let's take away Kobe's first 3 rings because he was playing with the best center in the league. Kobe should have left LA and gone to the Hornets. What a wuss. What a sell-out.

Shaq was the best player on the Lakers at that time.

 

[jdubs30]

If James liked taking the last shot, he would take it more. And your first paragraph proves why he isn't the best player in the league.

So in order to be the "best player" in the league, you have to force a fadeaway jumper over 3 defenders as opposed to passing it to a wide open man? And somehow missing the fadeaway in the first situation makes you a better player than the guy who passed it to a guy who made the open shot?

 

[jdubs30]

Does anyone really care about this? Lebron went to a really bad team in his first 2 years. They won 17 games the year before he got there. (As did Denver in 03, fwiw, but they added Andre Miller and got 50 more games out of Marcus Camby). But does anyone really care that Melo's teams were better the first year in the league?

Melo's clutch numbers are fantastic though. Small sample size or not, he has that over pretty much every guy in the league.

I agree; Melo just doesn't have better clutch numbers than LeBron, but than most top players; that doesn't make him a better player though (not saying you're claiming that, just saying in general)

 

[KingOtis]

And when Durant inevitably wins one, we will never hear "but he plays with Russell Westbrook and James Harden"; Pippen was a top 50 player of all time.

I get that LeBron CHOSE to go to Miami with DWade and Bosh; but does anyone see Durant leaving OKC just because Westbrook is there and therefore he won't get the credit he deserves?

There is way too much talent in this league to win one by yourself (although what Dirk did last year was amazing). Kobe has never won a title unless he's had a top 5 C with him.

Nothing wrong with having another talented player on your team. But does anyone think Westbrook is better than Durant? Did anyone think Pippen was better than Jordan? Yes, there were Shaq/Kobe debates and Magic/Kareem debates, but usually you know who is #1 and who is #2. James is #2...and that was his choice. You're not the best player in the league when you do that. You're just not. It was a cop out. It's something you do at the end of your career, like Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Gary Payton.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Doesn't much matter.. OKC is going to win the next couple titles anyway. Next year, everyone will have Kevin Durant as the best player in the league. I don't even think Miami makes the finals.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Playing great defense doesn't make him a clutch player. He's Scottie Pippen now, whoop-de-damn-do.

All I said about Melo is that he's a clutch player who has never missed the playoffs. He holds those two things over James.

Sorry, I haven't bought into John Hollinger...

We've already seen what happens when you build a team around James.

In the last ten years Syracuse has missed the tournament twice. Pittsburgh missed it once.

Whose results would you rather have?

 

[KingOtis]

Maybe after all the HS hoopla (but that was as media-driven as anything), but I feel like he's been fairly humble since he's been in the league (save the decision)

I'm pretty sure he did.

He was still a 20 year old kid who lead his team to the NBA Finals, I don't care how weak the East was.

"More than enough talent". Do you mean Baron Davis and Wallly Szcerbiak? Larry Hughes? Michel Redd? Mo Williams and Anderson Vareajo? Antwan Jamison? Please, he had nothing in Cleveland; Melo had way more help in Denver and they never did in the playoffs

Well, you're wrong:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2005.html

He didn't make the Finals until his fourth year.

So get some facts and come back and see me.

 

[EastCoast2]

I think there's one thing we can all agree on. You either love or hate Lebron, no middle ground here.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So it took him a whopping four years to take a 17 win team to the NBA finals. Oh and he got there because the ECF was fixed,

 

[Knicks411]

So in order to be the "best player" in the league, you have to force a fadeaway jumper over 3 defenders as opposed to passing it to a wide open man? And somehow missing the fadeaway in the first situation makes you a better player than the guy who passed it to a guy who made the open shot?

Never understood it.

I read somewhere, and I can't remember where, that in a way Michael Jordan almost ruined basketball. (And the author didn't really mean it, but was just saying for his point). Jordan's career was pretty much storybook; the guy took and made more big shots than probably anyone ever. And he won the title the last 6 years he played (I'm not counting 95 when he came back) that we kind of fell into the trap of assuming that whoever is the best player, if he is a perimeter player, has to the the next Jordan, and has to take, and of course, make, the last shot. (and even Jordan had the set up to Paxson in 93 and Kerr in 97 to win those titles)

Bill Russell is considered one of the 3 or 4 best players ever. I never got to see him play, but I don't think he was taking all of the last shots for the Celtics int he 60's. Magic was one of the best players of all time, he took some last shots, but he didn't take them all. And I don't think anyone thought any less of him when he gave it to Kareem.

The way I see it, it's the responsibility of the best player to make the play. Doesn't mean he has to take the shot, but he has to make the play and either shoot it or get someone else a look at it. Lebron definitely failed on that account in the finals last year, and he deserves to get a hit for that. I am a fan of his, but I will not excuse his play in the finals last year. I don't think it's representative of his whole career, but it did happen and he should get knocked for it.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Thanks to King Otis for playing a great devil's advocate here. He doesn't have stats to back up his claims.. but he sure has moxie! Gotta give a man credit for that.