OT: Bill Simmons Leaving ESPN

[triplethrea]

For what it's worth, it sounds like while a lot of us love Grantland, financially speaking, it isn't successful at all. Deadspin had an article basically saying that the biggest things Bill has done are:
Grantland
30 for 30
BS Report
Grantland Basketball TV Show

and that the only one that really makes any money is the 30 for 30 series, so ESPN declining to double his salary to $6 million after ESPN itself has had a few tough quarters in a row makes sense.

I can confidently say I will read whatever Zach Lowe puts out no matter where he works, and I'll still listen to most Bill Simmons podcasts assuming he still has them.

Somebody on Reddit said that ESPN is keeping Grantland not for the money, but for the prestige. It gives them the ability to say "we have high quality writing".

 

[billsin01]

With a side order of "hack." Another thing that stained him was the fact that he always acts like the biggest expert on the movie Hoosiers ever, and then he made a video of him visiting the Hoosiers gym and he kept calling Rade Butcher "Ray." He doesn't even know the character names of the movie he proclaims to have seen hundreds of times!

Dude, I've seen it 10 times and never new it was Rade. I mean, for all the reasons to hammer someone that's pretty minor.

 

[billsin01]

something where he can go on and on and on and on pompously and his fan boys will clap like otters. john oliver on sports with a different stupid accent

Spoken like someone who has never created for a living. Honestly, people who've never written a thing (other than 78,000 posts on message boards) hammering a guy who was the driving force behind a pretty cool creation (30 for 30) and a pretty fun, readable column that pretty effectively integrated humor and a fan's perspective while simultaneously actually providing some pretty solid insight (I'm not calling it a literary masterpiece or impeccable sports analysis) for 15 or 20 years is annoying to me.

 

[billsin01]

For what it's worth, it sounds like while a lot of us love Grantland, financially speaking, it isn't successful at all. Deadspin had an article basically saying that the biggest things Bill has done are:
Grantland
30 for 30
BS Report
Grantland Basketball TV Show

and that the only one that really makes any money is the 30 for 30 series, so ESPN declining to double his salary to $6 million after ESPN itself has had a few tough quarters in a row makes sense.

I can confidently say I will read whatever Zach Lowe puts out no matter where he works, and I'll still listen to most Bill Simmons podcasts assuming he still has them.

The thing about Grantland is that it's actually thoughtful writing -- maybe not everyone's style and I don't frequent it that often -- but it's thoughtful creative journalism. That costs money to produce. It's the reason papers suck now -- no money to actually fund real journalism. So while everyone says 'wow, that's really good' everyone actually clicks on more buzzfeed bs or TMZ garbage. So the idea of great content is largely unsustainable from a business standpoint. Of course that won't stop anyone from crying about 'how far journalism has fallen' despite the fact that they don't actually read real journalism.

 

[billsin01]

I used to love Simmons, but then his ego grew with his rise and crap has gotten repetitive and old. I used to find him mildly amusing back in his Boston Sports Guy days, but now whenever I hear or see him, it just reminds me of the "Smug Alert" South Park episode where everyone in San Francisco was farting into empty wine glasses and then smelling the glasses. His ego is way too big unjustifiably so, IMO; he's a decent writer, but outside of his NBA knowledge, which I do respect, I think his sports knowledge is below average.

I think he's gotten a bit repetitive and gotten away from what made his stuff really fun to read -- I'd agree with you there. But he has 'below-average' sports knowledge? He has a huge ego and he's smug? I don't know, I find him pretty self-deprecating and pretty informed. Plus, I think he likes to try and create and try new stuff -- something no sports writers did for a long time. Some works (grantland isn't bad, the BS report is pretty funny, IMO, and 30 for 30 was a pretty big hit), some doesn't (tv analyst ...). But I give him credit for trying. Let's remember that he's being fired for not following the ESPN agenda like a lemming. That's what everyone else there does.

 

[jekelish]

Dude, I've seen it 10 times and never new it was Rade. I mean, for all the reasons to hammer someone that's pretty minor.

But have you written national columns wherein you basically call yourself the utmost authority on the movie Hoosiers?

 

[OrangeDW]

My Bill Simmons opinions:...

I used to enjoy his "sports guy" articles in the early -mid 2000's. It got old, and I really don't enjoy most of the grantland writers at all...but his articles used to be a fun read pretty consistently. And while I think most of the Grantland writers seem like complete dorks, I do appreciate and respect the platform that he gave them. I like the idea of Grantland better than the execution.

I love 30 for 30. Some of those are great, and almost all of them are very watchable. Great idea, and great execution.

I love that he gave Jalen Rose such a platform. I love the Jalen and Jacoby podcast, and Rose is probably my favorite NBA media guy now.(on a Cuse note, I HATE that Jalen was once trying to talk about how he almost went to Cuse and all Bill wanted to talk about was UNLV and VEGAS! "What about VEGAS! You could've lived in VEGAS!...Jalen was much more interested in going to Cuse than UNLV)

I enjoy the BS report overall.

I don't enjoy him on TV at all other than occasionally laughing at how awful he is(like at the NBA draft), and don't really read his articles anymore as they got old.

I respect that he is a huge NBA fan and respect his knowledge, but don't think he knows any more about basketball than me, many on this board, or thousands of others out there.

I did like his book quite a bit(I illegally downloaded it, but I keep it on the ipad and occasionally go back to it, especially when taking a dump and having 5 minutes to kill. That book is right up my alley).

 

[billsin01]

But have you written national columns wherein you basically call yourself the utmost authority on the movie Hoosiers?

Ha! Fair point. I always liked those columns though.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

For what it's worth, it sounds like while a lot of us love Grantland, financially speaking, it isn't successful at all. Deadspin had an article basically saying that the biggest things Bill has done are:
Grantland
30 for 30
BS Report
Grantland Basketball TV Show

and that the only one that really makes any money is the 30 for 30 series, so ESPN declining to double his salary to $6 million after ESPN itself has had a few tough quarters in a row makes sense.

I can confidently say I will read whatever Zach Lowe puts out no matter where he works, and I'll still listen to most Bill Simmons podcasts assuming he still has them.

You guys have way too much free time if you can watch and listen to all these things. I barely have time to watch the games that I am interested in, let along, read all the commentary pre and post. That being said, I know I have posted a few things about Simmons over the years. I think he is like a lot of other top guys, like a Mike Francesa. Bottom line is that they don't know everything and occasionally do things to get the masses riled up, but they consistently put up big ratings.

I stopped watching all of the Sunday morning shows on TV including the NFL pre game shows which I used to love. I still like the guys on FOX, especially now that Strahan is on, but I can only take so much schtick for so long. ESPN has been dead to me for so long that I couldn't even tell you the last time I watched sportscenter. Definitely not the platform I go to when I want to learn about the latest sports "news".

 

[DeGrozz]

In 2002 the Americans had just been knocked out of the quarter finals of the World Cup. Bill Simmons wrote an article that talked about how the NCAA was the greatest player development and scouting tool in the world.

When you learn about the game and how players are developed around the world, then go back and read that article, you'll realize that Simmons is an extremely entertaining writer, but is completely full of shnit and spends a great deal of time talking out of his arss.

The guy is extremely talented as an entertainer, but not very good when it comes to content. He'll get readers, which is the only reason Grantland has been so successful, but he's no Donald Barlett.

He'll make money at Fox or CNN or where ever he ends up after ESPN, but the guy has done for sports journalism what Stephanie Meyer has done for fiction.

 

[jekelish]

In 2002 the Americans had just been knocked out of the quarter finals of the World Cup. Bill Simmons wrote an article that talked about how the NCAA was the greatest player development and scouting tool in the world.

When you learn about the game and how players are developed around the world, then go back and read that article, you'll realize that Simmons is an extremely entertaining writer, but is completely full of shnit and spends a great deal of time talking out of his arss.

The guy is extremely talented as an entertainer, but not very good when it comes to content. He'll get readers, which is the only reason Grantland has been so successful, but he's no Donald Barlett.

He'll make money at Fox or CNN or where ever he ends up after ESPN, but the guy has done for sports journalism what Stephanie Meyer has done for fiction.

Oof...I'm not sure I'd be so cruel as to compare him to Meyer. Meyer is a truly awful writer.

I was actually thinking he's kind of like the sports journalist version of Stephen King. I love Stephen King, he's my favorite novelist...but his work will never be studied in any literature classes. He's more of a great storyteller than a great writer. I'd say the same about Simmons.

 

[Quazzum69]

Maybe ESPN can afford some better website designers now.

 

[Alsacs]

Simmons did a good job crossing pop culture into sports columns. His Dr. Jack comparisons of Seinfeld vs. Cheers or Al Picino or Robert Deniro for who would be a better Michael Corleone were great.

The guy just doesn't have a great knowledge on sports beyond the NBA. I am huge Red Sox fan and when he would say things like the Sox got a huge hit to walk-off a playoff game against flame thrower J.P. Howell you know the guy doesn't study the game.

He was entertaining till he got to big for his bridges. He is the classic only child who throws tantrums when asked to get along.

 

[OrangeDW]

Simmons did a good job crossing pop culture into sports columns. His Dr. Jack comparisons of Seinfeld vs. Cheers or Al Picino or Robert Deniro for who would be a better Michael Corleone were great.

The guy just doesn't have a great knowledge on sports beyond the NBA. I am huge Red Sox fan and when he would say things like the Sox got a huge hit to walk-off a playoff game against flame thrower J.P. Howell you know the guy doesn't study the game.

He was entertaining till he got to big for his bridges. He is the classic only child who throws tantrums when asked to get along.

I'm so glad this is on youtube, it was hilarious watching it. Sage shaking her head made it even better.

 

[jekelish]

I'm so glad this is on youtube, it was hilarious watching it. Sage shaking her head made it even better.

"Motherf***er..."

 

[billsin01]

The guy is extremely talented as an entertainer, but not very good when it comes to content. He'll get readers, which is the only reason Grantland has been so successful, but he's no Donald Barlett.

He'll make money at Fox or CNN or where ever he ends up after ESPN, but the guy has done for sports journalism what Stephanie Meyer has done for fiction.

But I'm not sure he ever portrayed himself, at least for sports outside of the NBA, as a hard-hitting journalist (Barlett is the definition of that) or even as a numbers-crunching SABR guy like some of the fangraphs folks or others of that ilk. In fact, I'd argue, that the whole point of his writing was connecting with the fan on the level of 'when I'm watching, it makes no sense that the manager did X, when he should have done Y.' He added in a lot of humor (which, by the way, is an extremely difficult thing to do with any semblance of consistency), found a way to intertwine sports and many subjects beyond sports (movie, celebrities, etc.), and generally connected with the avid sports fan on levels very few before or even currently are able to do.

So I agree, he's not winning a Pulitzer. His books are, eh, OK writing but nothing of literary consequence. He's not much of an on-camera NBA analyst. But ultimately I'll remember him as a guy who has created more legitimately entertaining content than the rest of the sports media (Tony Kornheiser aside) combined. That's not a bad legacy at all.

 

[billsin01]

I'm so glad this is on youtube, it was hilarious watching it. Sage shaking her head made it even better.

I actually think that's funny. God forbid someone actually say what they're thinking on TV instead of reading off a prompter.

 

[jekelish]

In fact, I'd argue, that the whole point of his writing was connecting with the fan on the level of 'when I'm watching, it makes no sense that the manager did X, when he should have done Y.' He added in a lot of humor (which, by the way, is an extremely difficult thing to do with any semblance of consistency), found a way to intertwine sports and many subjects beyond sports (movie, celebrities, etc.), and generally connected with the avid sports fan on levels very few before or even currently are able to do.

That basically sums it up. He's the "sports guy" because he's a guy who can talk sports at the bar. That's basically what his schtick started out as, and that's his lasting impact. He's a conversational blogger who came along at the exact right time, with the exact right amount of talent and humor to make it big.

 

[billsin01]

Simmons did a good job crossing pop culture into sports columns. His Dr. Jack comparisons of Seinfeld vs. Cheers or Al Picino or Robert Deniro for who would be a better Michael Corleone were great.

The guy just doesn't have a great knowledge on sports beyond the NBA. I am huge Red Sox fan and when he would say things like the Sox got a huge hit to walk-off a playoff game against flame thrower J.P. Howell you know the guy doesn't study the game.

He was entertaining till he got to big for his bridges. He is the classic only child who throws tantrums when asked to get along.

I'm a huge sox fan as well and I agree -- his baseball knowledge is less than impressive. But I still found his writing on baseball pretty fun and entertaining. In fact, if I were criticizing him, I would say getting thoroughly obsessed with the NBA pigeon-holed him. I liked when he used to touch on a lot of sports.

Why do you keep saying he got cocky and smug? I don't get that from the podcasts? And not wanting a network telling you what to think about a subject is something I want in my writers and journalists. ESPN needs more of that kind of thought and behavior. And for people ragging on his writing, 'to big for his bridges'? Come on.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm a huge sox fan as well and I agree -- his baseball knowledge is less than impressive. But I still found his writing on baseball pretty fun and entertaining. In fact, if I were criticizing him, I would say getting thoroughly obsessed with the NBA pigeon-holed him. I liked when he used to touch on a lot of sports.

Why do you keep saying he got cocky and smug? I don't get that from the podcasts? And not wanting a network telling you what to think about a subject is something I want in my writers and journalists. ESPN needs more of that kind of thought and behavior. And for people ragging on his writing, 'to big for his bridges'? Come on.

He is cocky and smug because he still thinks he is BS from 1999-2004, but he is different. Obviously the guy has been a success, but his attitude on-air has become sloppy and his #hotsports mentality is annoying. If he likes you or your one of his crew he is very very loyal, but the guy is childish and doesn't respect authority or know his boundaries.

Whether he respects certain co-workers or not no company would ever allow an employee trash another employee in the same company. Simmons never respected this and threw tantrums and thought just because he is friends with Walsh that would protect him. if you don't like certain other ESPN personalities. He hasn't written anything besides Friday NFL picks, and NBA trade value pieces for years. He has gotten beyond stale. That clip above shows the smug 100%. He had to be passive aggressive towards Sage Steele for no reason and guess what he lost his spot on the NBA Countdown studio because of that power play. ESPN sided with Sage Steele who was a pro.

 

[billsin01]

That basically sums it up. He's the "sports guy" because he's a guy who can talk sports at the bar. That's basically what his schtick started out as, and that's his lasting impact. He's a conversational blogger who came along at the exact right time, with the exact right amount of talent and humor to make it big.

I agree, though I personally don't dismiss it as schtick, per se. I think he reminded people that it's fine to be biased if you're honest about it. It's fine to be a fine as long it's on the table. It's fine to have fun with sports instead of gasping every time some MLB guy gets caught with PEDs or a college football player gets a DUI. He was/is a really good observational writer and humorist, which entails not only recognizing the humor in subjects, but getting it down on paper (or on the computer screen) in an articulate fashion.

I don't know -- I definitely don't read him as often now and certainly feel like there are times where his trying to write about all sports exposed him as not exactly an expert on certain topics. I definitely am not suggesting he's some important literary figure. But I do think it's a mistake to diminish what is a pretty impressive catalog of entertaining content (taking the columns with the podcasts, the 30 for 30 stuff and grantland).

 

[jekelish]

I agree, though I personally don't dismiss it as schtick, per se. I think he reminded people that it's fine to be biased if you're honest about it. It's fine to be a fine as long it's on the table. It's fine to have fun with sports instead of gasping every time some MLB guy gets caught with PEDs or a college football player gets a DUI. He was/is a really good observational writer and humorist, which entails not only recognizing the humor in subjects, but getting it down on paper (or on the computer screen) in an articulate fashion.

I don't know -- I definitely don't read him as often now and certainly feel like there are times where his trying to write about all sports exposed him as not exactly an expert on certain topics. I definitely am not suggesting he's some important literary figure. But I do think it's a mistake to diminish what is a pretty impressive catalog of entertaining content (taking the columns with the podcasts, the 30 for 30 stuff and grantland).

Mentioning the observational/humorist thing...would it be fair to say he's basically the Dave Barry of sports?

 

[billsin01]

Mentioning the observational/humorist thing...would it be fair to say he's basically the Dave Barry of sports?

I love Dave Barry. It's not a bad comp for me, but I realize this is all personal taste. Dave Barry actually had some pretty ridiculously funny books and I wasn't blown away with BS's books, but pretty similar. Does that comp work for you at all?

 

[MSOrange]

He is cocky and smug because he still thinks he is BS from 1999-2004, but he is different. Obviously the guy has been a success, but his attitude on-air has become sloppy and his #hotsports mentality is annoying. If he likes you or your one of his crew he is very very loyal, but the guy is childish and doesn't respect authority or know his boundaries.

Whether he respects certain co-workers or not no company would ever allow an employee trash another employee in the same company. Simmons never respected this and threw tantrums and thought just because he is friends with Walsh that would protect him. if you don't like certain other ESPN personalities. He hasn't written anything besides Friday NFL picks, and NBA trade value pieces for years. He has gotten beyond stale. That clip above shows the smug 100%. He had to be passive aggressive towards Sage Steele for no reason and guess what he lost his spot on the NBA Countdown studio because of that power play. ESPN sided with Sage Steele who was a pro.

My friend works behind the scenes at ESPN and told me Sage Steele is probably one of the nicest anchors in his experience. If you make her mad, that's apparently quite an accomplishment.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

You guys are being ridiculous. The guy is extremely creative and a great writer. His writing goes well beyond just sports. He also has an eye for talent and puts talented people on his Podcasts and allows them a form to shine in writing for Grantland as well as the 30 for 30's. I don't recall him ever purporting to be an expert in the way people are claiming he isn't. I listen to pretty much all his podcasts and he has guests from all walks of life and can conduct a decent interview over a broad swath of topics. He is petulant and can be smug but I dont think that is the same as arrogance. He struggled for years as a writer for lowly high school sports like volleyball and earned his station in life completely on his own talent. The fact that he went after and continues to go after that Roger Goodell only makes me like him more. You can always count on ESPN to censor anyone going after their golden cow. Remember how that show Playmakers got cancelled for no reason? Oh yeah, there was a reason all right...